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Antidepressants (SSRI) Make Females Unattractive, Provoke Male Aggression

Discussion in 'Scientific Studies' started by haidut, Jan 3, 2019.

  1. Catcream

    Catcream Member

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    It’s not about feeling safe here. I feel very safe . But I feel saddened that more and more people on this forum are abusive and , yes, misogynistic, a word I use for the first time in this hmmm, discussion.I merely ask - Why does someone feel they need to use the phrase ‘whore moans’ in response to someone’s post? Why would they do that? I really don’t understand .
     
  2. Ashoka

    Ashoka Member

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    I just think it’s kind of a sad juxtaposition between being the aggressor in an abusive relationship and the decision to remain in a relationship. To put these under the umbrella of responsibility in the same paragraph seems bizarre. The emphasis should be placed on stopping abuse from happening, not blaming a victim for ending up in what often is an unexpected circumstance.

    If a woman wants to look made-up/attractive in public, she shares the blame if someone assaults her? We can say a person is responsible for their safety to some degree, but it does nothing to advance the discussion on where the culture needs to be if we can’t express ourselves in a basic way or enter relationships without a threat of abuse. It sounds ridiculous to blame anyone for being abused or assaulted, unless that’s actively what someone is searching out. (Even then masochism in that sense is bizarre, and doesn’t seem like an actual issue.)

    All of the instances I can personally think of that involved abusive behavior would have been incredibly difficult to foresee. If a woman wants to leave a relationship with a very abusive man, she may find herself isolated and without support, and then as per one view, possibly shamed. It can’t be liberally simplified into “they must take responsibility”.

    I don’t really think modern women are thin-skinned, but many are pissed off about real and perceived injustice. People want freedom, not to be locked into a binary that doesn’t adequately describe their experience. Some women are not emotional. If a man tells a woman she’s emotional, there’s a gender dynamic at play where it sounds like he’s telling her she’s inherently more irrational as well. Emotions are often not identified with being connected to rationality, especially by men. So it would potentially anger people to say something like that.

    My point isn’t that population growth doesn’t pose an issue. It’s just the idea of “don’t let certain people procreate” is a little tired. I mean that takes on as dire themes as the very apocalypse you’re trying to avoid. It doesn’t sound like a viable political or ecological debate. I think stopping poverty among other things curbs population growth.
     
  3. Hugh Johnson

    Hugh Johnson Member

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    It's because you can't quantify a male bird attractiveness. You can quantify a female bird attractiveness by measuring how much the male ones woo them. As far as men's attractiveness, that is something women decide, so look in the mirror. Male looks have little effect on success with women.

    That being said, the "whore moans" statement was unfair, and that guy is being misogynistic. You are right about that.
     
  4. Jackrabbit

    Jackrabbit Member

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    Really, you don’t believe a male’s looks have anything to do with his attractiveness? Then why so many bodybuilders? Women tend to find men attractive based on a certain type, just like men do. And there are stereotypically unattractive men and women out there who land mates so obviously both males and females are capable of more than simple animalistic mating behavior based on criteria like “shape is nice.” Perhaps the study cited by haidut is flawed because it fails to take into account the more complex aspects of attraction that humans have. Of course there are people who seem to have pretty basic mating criteria and rituals, but I would say most adults look for more than just a handsome face and chiseled abs.
    That being said, perhaps the study shows that animals and humans (because we are essentially animals with more complex brains) shows that we subconsciously pick up on other people’s imbalances, and anyone on this forum would at least acknowledge there is a solid reason to argue that raised serotonin would signal ill health or even mental illness. There is some animalistic part of us that needs to avoid sick people, perhaps as an evolutionary measure, and it stands to reason that high serotonin would be a marker in our biological minds for sickness . So it’s perhaps not so much that the person/animal is no longer attractive in the looks sense, but that the person/animal is setting off some self-protective mechanism. Now humans are capable of actually overriding that mechanism and justifying sex with a sick mate for various reasons, whereas animals are not and are totally driven by their instincts. And the further down the pharmacological pathway we go, the less likely we are to pay attention to our natural instincts. Maybe this whole men choosing to not get married is a rebellion against going along with society because it’s what we’re “supposed” to do. However until there is a more prevalent discussion about the dangers of SSRI then I don’t see how anything will change. The robots of the world who follow society’s demands regardless of its failings will continue to procreate with the chemically deranged, and the intelligent ones will be forced to pay for it all in the short run, however their ( lack of) progeny will not suffer the consequences of a world gone mad.
     
  5. Waremu

    Waremu Member

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    Well, you seem to operate from a different moral compass rather than a more objective one if you think someone bares none of the responsability for choosing to be in an abusive relationship and continuing to go back to them. If someone sees a warning sign in Africa that there is a field of wild lions ahead of them, are they not responsible if they run into the field to play with the wild lions and get killed by the lions? By your same argument it is not their persons fault but the lions fault for acting out on their nature. According to your same logic, that person has no responsability as well for their stupid decision. Clearly that is absurd. No one is arguing what the abuser did was wrong. Your mind for some reason seems to be stuck on that. The argument is whether the so-called victim bares responsability, and they clearly do. There will always be bad people to be in relationships with. Getting into one unknowingly is one thing, but staying in after they continue to abuse you is another.

    And how do you stop the abuse from happening? By 1) Using the law to arrest the abuser, and 2) not being in the relationship with the abuser. Both things a large percentage of abuse victims do NOT do. So then, they are making the choice to not use the tools at their disposal at fighting and stopping the abuse. If you willingly continue to be with an abusive person, and even enable them to abuse you (like many abuse victims do in relationships) by stopping Police from getting involved, then you are no longer a victim in my book. You are more so akin to a person who self-mutilates their own bodies but the only difference is you use others to carry that out.

    That's a false equivalence right there. When a woman puts on make up to go out, unless they're in a high crime area, the chances of them getting assaulted sexually or raped are very very low. However, if you see a field of lions and run into it, there is a much much higher chance you will be their dinner. You are comparing apples to oranges here. In an abusive relationship, if the woman has already been abused and chooses to stay in it, it is almost a guarantee that they will be assaulted/abused again.


    No, not to 'some degree.' They are completely responsible for their safety. No one else is responsible for your safety but YOU. No one owes you anything. You are the only person you have to care about in the world because guess what, no one in the world is really going to care about you in the end when it is all said and done. Just look at how you try to absolve any level of responsability on the females behalf. That is the very key definition of gynocentric. If someone doesn't wear a seat belt and as a result dies in a car accident, then they bare complete responsability for not wearing the seat belt!

    But that has been my argument all along. Where have you been? A LARGE percentage of abuse victims in relationships DO seek it out. They do not leave the relationship and continue to be in it after the abuse and they even stop the Police from getting involved. What do you call that? They ARE seeking it out when they decide to be in an abusive relationship.


    Nonsense. There are many women who see the very bad warning signs in these men before getting with them. It is not uncommon that women have some kind of sick fantasy or fetish for seeking such men out to 'fix them.' Again, this is very common among abuse relationship counselors. I had a family member who was a pretty successful one in her city and over 70% of the abuse victims in relationships not only stayed in the relationship after the abuse, but enabled the abuse and few actually ended up leaving. How is a woman isolated and without support? There are government services to help care for abuse victims in most developed Western countries. There is no excuse for staying in an abusive relationship. Having to move back with your family or live in a womans shelter for abuse victim is not worse than having your life under consistent threat. In the end, doesn't matter how hard it is. If the victim continues to stay in an abusive relationship then 1) there is no excuse for that and 2) they are equally responsible. In fact, in such relationships I don't have very much sympathy for such people like that. They are their own worst enemy.



    Okay, well you're clearly living in a different world if you ignore how thin skinned so many women are today. That's just not true. What many call 'injustices' today is open for debate and often not actual injustice, and just because injustice is 'perceived' doesn't make it actual injustice. Often 'injustice' is an excuse to enact collective vengeance upon another group collective under the guise of equality of fighting injustice because of prejudice/hatred, bias, or thirst for more power. Just look at all the demands being made by radical feminist groups today if you want to see a good example of that. Freedom is an interesting concept as well. I would argue that most people may say they want freedom, but they do not. I would argue that most people want security over freedom and often most of those who say they want freedom don't have the correct definition of what freedom is and it is really just them wanting to use the force of the powers that be to enact violence upon others only to call it freedom. If your so-called 'freedom' requires restricting someone else's freedom, by taking something from them via proxy violence/force of the state or mob, then it isn't freedom. The argument isn't whether some women were not emotional. The argument is that, on average, women tend to be more emotional. Group averages. Yes, if someone is more emotional, it can mean they are more irrational. But just because it sounds bad doesn't make it not true. And because women tend to be more emotional, in some contexts they can be more irrational. Mens irrationality usually comes from their aggression and competition instinct. A woman who was joining the military once asked me why she can't complete the military physical training exam that men use and why women must have a different exam. She pointed to the requirement for less pull ups and other exercises. I told her because women on average cannot compete at the level of men because they lack the same level of physical strength. She got offended by that. So the truth that women on average are weaker than men offended her. Did that make it untrue because she was offended by that? No. Women on average tend to be more offended by basic scientific truths such as this than men do. these days This is why they now want to reject many basic facts for fear of it offending women. That is how soft our society has become.

    You say population growth doesn't pose an issue, but so what? If I say the sun is purple it doesn't make it purple. You say it poses no issue because you want that to be the case, not because you have a good argument as to why it won't. This here is a good example of irrational debate.


    Again. All I see is an emotional argument of why you think so. No logic or substance here.

    Saying it is not so because it is a 'little tired' isn't an argument.

    Many species are at risk of dying out because of human overcapacity and resource depletion alone. So we should continue to kill off other animals to feed a population that the food chain cannot sustain? A lot of logic there. Lets ignore topsoil erosion as well.

    You can't fully stop poverty for the most part. Stopping global poverty requires the use of resources that are not available to the whole world. It's an age old materialistic fantasy by failed economic systems like Marxism that continues to push this idea that if we just redistribute wealth then we can solve poverty, but thats an old idea that just doesn't match up to what we know about ecological science, and how it relates to economics and the laws of the physics. Money is a proxy or claim on not just future productivity, but used energy. Most of the so-called wealth today is in the form of credit, not tangible wealth, and it derives it's value from future productivity. This is why it is impossible. Marx and even most capitalist economists (until recently) didn't understand this. The only real solution is for people to stop having so many children in most of the nations of the world. When your freedom to breed infringes on other people and animals, then it is no longer freedom.
     
  6. charlie

    charlie The Law & Order Admin

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    No I do not think it is possible because everything checked out after the migration. Nothing should have been lost.
     
  7. Hugh Johnson

    Hugh Johnson Member

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    I did not say irrelevant. But did you know some women consider Eckhart Tolle very sexy? Looks matter, but not much. Tolle is out of shape, dressed like crap, has poor posture and an ugly face. Yet hot to a lot of women.

    Anyway, what is missing from the discussion is how damaged men are. That is not the fault of the study or haidut, but the framing has become about women being faulty and that is deeply unfair. Men are unhealthy and messed up too. They have weird ideas about women, lack empathy for women and hate women. I hate women, I know this because once in a while a strange idea about women pops up in my head and I have no idea where that came from. I am quite sure it is a culturally conditioned hatred transmitted via the media. Women have to navigate a really tough place where they are put on a pedestal and simultanously devalued. Men lack the capacity to connect as genuine human beings to women and believe they can purchase women by making lots of money, or via fame or looks. Women like those things, but they really seek human connection which men can not usually provide.

    That is the problem with MGTOW, they can not truly connect with women because there is something. Women don't want the "robots of the world" even if they have money. They want men.

    My laboured point being, this is a deeply unhealthy society, that has damaged both sexes.
     
  8. Runenight201

    Runenight201 Member

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    The main issue with a large part of your rhetoric is your assumption that humans are logical beings who derive our values from logical thought and make decisions from logical processes.

    We are much more controlled by our limbic and emotional processes, especially when it comes to relationships, and people who are stuck in abusive relationships are quite literally trapped by a complex mix of fear and love, and no amount of logic could ever get someone controlled by such processes to see otherwise.

    People seek help for all sorts of issues derived from pathological complexes deriving from emotional/psychological roots. It often takes a huge effort of psychological, emotional, or religious intervention to ameliorate these people. Rational thought will never help, and your arguments that it should are ignorant and do nothing to address the issue.

    I think if any one male in the MGTOW movement experienced what true love felt like, they’d renounce all their perverse rhetoric and seek long term pair-bonding.
     
  9. Waremu

    Waremu Member

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    Both sexes are 'messed up', not just men. It just manifests itself in different ways, and sometimes similar ways.

    Most women DO want mates who make good money though. It's called hypergamy and it is common among female animals. Most marriages have a higher chance of ending in divorce if women make more money than the man, according to the statistics. And, women initiate most divorces and financial reasons are one of the main concerns.

    And hypergamy isn't necessarily a bad thing either. Women via natural selection have these desires (hypergamy) to 'marry up' because raising children in environments were resources are plentiful makes for a successful marriage and family life/child rearing.

    The problem is, in our current society, hypergamy in that context can have a bad outcome when it comes without responsability being equally balanced with freedom, and the state stepping in to often replace the father in the homes. Women, particualry in poor and lower income areas, are incentivized to have babies actually with bad men due to welfare/government programs. So it becomes a toxic mix. And then babies are born with single or no parents. That clearly isn't good for society now is it?

    A lot of men I have noticed grow up being taught many lies like "finding the one" and romantic love, but when they see how the world is and how their experience with women really are, and that most women or society respects them for being decent or 'nice' guys (I do not mena nice in a creepy way here), they grow very cold. I also think a lot of men who are of higher intelligence have a harder time relating to women and men in general as they're coming from different universes, so to speak.

    I think MGTOW has a lot of correct ideas. Much of its ideas are actually not new, but have resurfaced because much of it was lost knowledge. But you can find very good historical writings from centuries and even thousands of years ago that talk about many of these observed differences in the gender/sexual dynamics and how it relates to the overall society. Also, I don't think most men have the life experience or experience with women to truly understand the intellectual aspects of MGTOW philosophy.
     
  10. Hugh Johnson

    Hugh Johnson Member

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    You read too much bitter losers, and it is rubbing off on you.
     
  11. Waremu

    Waremu Member

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    You did not understand my 'rhetoric' then because that is not what I said or imply. Quite the contrary. I don't think most people are logical beings and they operate mainly off instinct and emotion. That nevertheless doesn't change the fact that people shouldn't strive to look at things more objectively, however. I do think a good percentage of humans are capable of it if they try. So it's not that simple.

    I think for many people, they have to learn from the experience of others, and some have to learn from their own experiences more than observing things. I do think people have the ability to look at things objectively, but I just think they're a minority of people in the world. Thats the main problem. But nevertheless, we are the most intelligent of beings within the animal kingdom and we do bare responsability for not being more objective. And if we ever want to progress (which I have doubts about), we will have to grow out of excuses of having more animalistic base instincts and learning to not operate in that dimension within that context.

    Here are a few facts:

    1) The world will continue to spin with or without you
    2) Your problems and you are not the center of the universe
    3) The world does not care about your problems
    4) The world is bigger than your problems
    5) When you die, your problems and thoughts will vanish with you to dust, and the world will still go on
    6) No matter what your problems are, there will always be someone out there who is dealing with more or worse problems than you, so you are not unique in that regard

    Given these points, to say "we are broken, poor me, thus I will continue to operate off my most base animalistic instincts" and not strive for better, and thus I have no responsability to strive to operate in a better dimension, is what is ignorant here and I think you show that well. It's like the appeal to nature fallacy many people make, where just because something is natural it is then good and should be.

    If we had that attitude, we would have never made the advancements in science that we have made.

    But the point is, if you want to continue to operate on emotions, and just because many people do, doesn't mean it is good. The world is survival of the fittest, whether you like it or not. And in the end, it is only those who strive for greater things instead of making excuses natural selection will favor. Those who make excuses to not strive for greater things will just fade away.

    I have no obligation or responsability to tell people what they want to hear, but just state the facts. They have their own house to clean if they so choose to do so.


    MGTOW isn't a movement. It's a philosophy/set of ideas. The acronym is newer, and as with any set of ideas or phenomena, people from all walks of life will latch on to many of those ideas, but the concept of MGTOW has always been around, actually. I think you don't at all have the slightest understanding of many of the core ideas. You say it is because they all have 'perverse rhetoric', but I'd say it's likely because you're not a very experienced man who has been out in the world and experienced and observed human nature and gained much wisdom in that regard because MGTOW ideas is a compilation of a lot of wisdom and truths only one who has done those things can truly understand. Men who are not very experienced in life and people likely will see MGTOW as something weird and foreign as they operate from a simplistic childish-utopian-blue pill lens type of view of the world. This is why I wouldn't even try to waste time explaining MGTOW concepts to such guys. I can usually tell from a mile away that they're operating in a totally different dimension and, if they so choose to be open to learning those ideas, in most cases, it will take a lot of life/world experience to make many of the concepts 'click' to them.
     
  12. Waremu

    Waremu Member

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    It's not bitterness. Life just happens to people. You'll eventually grow up and realize that. Have some perspective.
     
  13. Runenight201

    Runenight201 Member

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    Most people do strive for better, but even the most intellectual of men will realize that they succumb to their basal instincts more often than not. This problem is seen quite often among those who are aware enough of it, and has led to aid from some higher power.

    The answer is to have ones emotions and desires line up with what’s healthy, true, moral, and right. This is seeking betterment, and it’s the better solution than turning the world into one intellectual, logical breakdown of facts and decisions.
     
  14. Jackrabbit

    Jackrabbit Member

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    In order for society as we know it to work, people are put in work situations that are structured to devalue everyone except those at the top. I think eventually people choosing to not mate is going to be the natural consequence of rewarding soullessness in the financial/economic sector. People can only be treated like robots for so long before they either start acting like them to appease others, or refuse to participate, meaning they’ll be socially outcast/unemployed, etc. Either of those choices involves having to be somehow ok with a lifestyle that excludes all the important things that make us human , such as cooperation and genuinely caring about others and not just yourself.
    People have become selfish by necessity, it’s seemingly the only way to survive modern capitalism. However, I think it’s pretty clear that the majority of people aren’t actually happy in this system! Hence the SSRI use. Hence not being able to relate to others, because relationships require empathy and patience and those things don’t benefit one in the modern workplace.
     
  15. tankasnowgod

    tankasnowgod Member

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    Pet peeve of mine, but...... if you live ANYWHERE in the world in the year 2019, you do NOT live under a capitalist system, period. The system you live under isn't even close to Capitalism, guaranteed. Capitalism has not existed in the United States since at least 1913. It would be far more accurate to say "People have become selfish by necessity, it’s seemingly the only way to survive in Light Fascism. Or Mordern Socialism. Or a Controlled Economy. Or a world where free markets don't truly exist."
     
  16. Jackrabbit

    Jackrabbit Member

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    Actually selfishness is the fundamental aspect of a truly capitalist society, have you ever read anything by Ayn Rand?
     
  17. tankasnowgod

    tankasnowgod Member

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    That may be true, but the fact remains..... there is not a single capitalist society on planet earth in 2019.
     
  18. Ashoka

    Ashoka Member

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    I think we're talking past each other slightly. I agree a notion of responsibility and of course I see the point you're making. But I think in the context of the discussion, it's bizarre to have these types of "responsibility" in the same category. The law makes a differentiation between abuser and abused. The abused person doesn't get sent to prison or reprimanded because they were abused, and I think that's more than a legal quirk lol. So when I say including these things under the same umbrella of responsibility is bizarre, this is what I mean. I don't see the abused as "guilty". In context of men and women taking responsibility you set up, you brought up an example in which the disparity in responsibility is so extreme, so this particular example does no service to whatever overarching point you want to make about women and men taking equal responsibility. It just sounds absurd. And I also think the situation is more complex than you realize. Most obviously the effects of abuse leave psychological scars and make you feel gaslit, worthless, losing grip of reality. That's the experience. The reasons to stay in these relationships can often be financial, sometimes there is no support (whatever you think about how helpful government/more likely nonprofit services are), or even for the threat of violence - all those things are incredibly commonplace and have even affected my own life. From an outside perspective everything can look stupid - even love can when it's all-consuming - but to think we don't have something to learn from people who have gone through certain experiences like abuse is just to turn a blind eye. The psychology of addiction and abuse is well established by now.

    An interesting comparison to the person who self-harms is that those people do it out of a deep emotional pain. Just in the same way pain drives addiction to drugs. If those types of addictions teach us something, it's the incredible difficulty with which some people fight through personal pain and thereafter addiction. It would be impossible to overcome these things without support. I just don't think talking about responsibility in that context is helpful or humane. Who are we to judge, when the depth of pain is real and inescapable? In certain situations, people become unavailable to give a response - like Gabor Maté might say it - they are not "response-able". It's more interesting to know why someone isn't able to change their situation, to know what's actually standing in the way, than to begin with an overtly judgmental attitude.

    I think stopping abuse happens on a micro, literal level the way you describe, but on a macro level educating people about it, creating a culture awareness in an overt way inhospitable to it, and NOT guilting victims, makes sense as some ways to start. It seems like there's better steps in this direction currently. It doesn't mean it hasn't in a sense created a climate of fear in which some men (or women) may be wrongly accused - this type of thing may happen.

    It doesn't really matter - then you get cat-called or harassed in a different way. I see this happen a lot. I think I was trying to highlight the strange nature of a discussion about responsibility again with this example. On a moral level, for my lack of a better term, only one party is guilty in that type of harassment. The answer isn't, "What do you expect when you dress and look that way?"

    Not sure where you get the equally responsibility thing from - that's bizarre. Only in the barest sense that one has to look out for oneself is that true. You think if two parties are involved they always bear equal responsibility, so long as there's a "way out". Is this how the counselor family member speaks to victims of abuse, by calling them equally responsible, thinking they're not really a victim of something after they elect to stay? I kind of doubt it - that wouldn't seem to be a standard perspective on the subject.

    I'm not upset by your comments. I just don't see how women are generally more thin-skinned than men. I'm not saying certain particular aspects of life that don't favor women out there - people often bring up divorce - but again in my own experience that's not a clean cut, obvious thing. But there are probably many other aspects that don't favor women currently, and historically countless restrictions to their freedoms.
    Before I was only trying to explain how it's possible someone could be offended - I also think that's contextual. They may have started making assumptions about how you view women, because to say something like that, it's considered old-fashioned even if there's truth to it. If a woman said to me, "Men are more aggressive", I might think it was kind of stupid, both because that seems almost redundant and also too simple of a statement; I wouldn't even say it's obviously true.

    If you look back, I said it does pose an issue; I just used a double negative. "I'm not saying it doesn't pose an issue." I didn't see how stating that some people shouldn't have children was really going to be a persuasive political argument, because it's elitist for a start and it sounded more like dystopian sci-fi material. Some people are too stupid to procreate - good luck selling that idea, which is intensely cynical generally and dire in its implications. I don't think all people who are parents are good parents or that terrible people should have kids, but at the end of the day it's a moralizing argument that does nothing.

    Yeah I can't really comment on this, but I don't exactly buy the idea as it's presented outright. Isn't it more interesting again to understand why population booms at certain times in certain parts of the world than to jump to ideas about setting inhibiting laws from above to stop people from having kids, which may or may not be the most practical or humane choice? Perhaps if these reasons were better understood, and everything wasn't broken in the way you describe (we are in fact talking about potential solutions right now), then solving poverty wouldn't be the utopian fantasy it seems to be. The point is that reducing poverty influences population growth, not that we can sustain more than possible on the planet.
     
  19. Hugh Johnson

    Hugh Johnson Member

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    There seems to be two trends. One is what you mentioned, but many are dropping out and building their own communities and finding their own solutions in ways that actually serve life. Most of the world is living under an increasingly dystopic corporate capitalism, but it is getting so bad that ever more people are searching for solutions in the fringes.
     
  20. tankasnowgod

    tankasnowgod Member

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    Another, better word instead of "corporate capitalism" would be "corporatism." That is basically how Mussolini defined Fascism.
     
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