PTSD / Trauma Is Contagious, Can Be Transmitted Via Odor/pheromones

[Rafe]

@Travis
That (great) Hoffer & Osmond chapter about the indolic psychoactive effects of adrenochrome would explain why high stress states seem, or are, sub-clinical altered consciousness states. . .where things that are unreasonable seem completely doable. This would be good in a life-threatening situation such as being caught under rubble in an earthquake or arrested without cause in the middle of the night. Or different, & why on LCHF a person after a lifetime of desk work might plan to run 100 miles barefoot while eating peanut butter and water, for example. That's exaggerating, but not much. Ultra-endurance is interesting b/c it has a lot to teach about stress.

Now the Chemistry of Death & Desire is just icing on the puritanical washing machine. Especially when those redefined smutty french perfumes are over 300$ a bottle. I guess I'll have to settle for the moldering leaves scent from the hunting department at the big box store. Or actual moldering leaves in a jar on my kitchen counter that is now more like a chem lab. Or, well, the sex scent is free as long as you're in good health, no? Redefined? Or just admitting our connections on the front &, er, back ends of life?

Probably why so many people report changes in their sense of smell when they get healthier, not to mention that they report new & pleasant body odor.
Saving these great links.

 

[Travis]

@Travis
That (great) Hoffer & Osmond chapter about the indolic psychoactive effects of adrenochrome would explain why high stress states seem, or are, sub-clinical altered consciousness states. . .where things that are unreasonable seem completely doable. This would be good in a life-threatening situation such as being caught under rubble in an earthquake or arrested without cause in the middle of the night. Or different, & why on LCHF a person after a lifetime of desk work might plan to run 100 miles barefoot while eating peanut butter and water, for example. That's exaggerating, but not much. Ultra-endurance is interesting b/c it has a lot to teach about stress.

Now the Chemistry of Death & Desire is just icing on the puritanical washing machine. Especially when those redefined smutty french perfumes are over 300$ a bottle. I guess I'll have to settle for the moldering leaves scent from the hunting department at the big box store. Or actual moldering leaves in a jar on my kitchen counter that is now more like a chem lab. Or, well, the sex scent is free as long as you're in good health, no? Redefined? Or just admitting our connections on the front &, er, back ends of life?

Probably why so many people report changes in their sense of smell when they get healthier, not to mention that they report new & pleasant body odor.
Saving these great links.

I had posted that article because I had thought It was poetic; I mean, how often does one come across the term 'smutty indolic florals'? I searched for that unusual string of words and got exactly two results from Google: the article I'd posted previously, and page №1 of this very thread.

Nearly all indoles are pscyhoactive, and they are volatile. The smallest indole is indole proper with a molecular mass of 117.15·amu. Adrenochrome is an indole with a few oxygens and one methyl group attached contributing to a combined 179.18·amu mass, which is slightly less than half the mass of cortisol (362.46·amu)—which isn't really psychoactive and already exists in the body at 925·μg (multiplying the median reference range by mean blood volume). Even if it were sufficiently volatile, it still couldn't compete with the stress indoles formed upon catecholamine oxidation–cyclicization. We have receptors for indoles, like serotonin, at the brain synapses—the G protein-coupled receptor junctions—while the cortisol receptors are found on the membrane, cytosol, and nucleus where they primarily mediate intra∶extra cellular mineral ratios. In the nucleus cortisol transcribes for its own mineralocorticoid membrane receptor, but also influences sugar-metabolic gene transcription having about equal equal affinity for the glucocorticoid receptor.

I think we can still MacGuyver-together a bastard Chanel №5 impostor using a few things. The compost is a good idea, but we do need a source of ambergris. We can frighten our pets to obtain volatile catecholamine-indoles!—perhaps by first obtaining and then showing a few stray cats pictures, videos, and audio recordings of dogs—after which we can gas-distill the airtight box volume we keep them in (unless, of course, you happen by chance to receive one of Schrödinger's stray cats).

But seriously, this adrenochrome would be interesting to experiment with—which could easily be made from adrenaline. However: I think this would represent a hard-to-obtain prescription-only item, for obvious reasons. If you start from L-DOPA, I think the hardest part would be the selective hydroxylation of the β-carbon—the decarboxylation (− CO₂) and N-methylation being relatively straightforward.

 

[LUH 3417]

Looks like our beloved war machines have known about pheromones and trauma for quite some time

Body odor remote-engineering, such as halitosis and hyperhidrosis, was another possibility discussed. Again, these effects would be produced by a non-lethal chemical weapon — possibly one that would affect the hormonal and digestive systems. It appears that a 'heavy sweating bomb', 'flatulencebomb' and 'halitosis bomb' were also considered by a committee at the time. The plan was to make an enemy so smelly they could be quite literally sniffed out of hiding by their opponents.

 

[LUH 3417]

Wright Laboratory won the 2007 Ig Nobel Peace Prize for "instigating research & development on a chemical weapon — the so-called 'gay bomb' / 'poof bomb' — that will make enemy soldiers become sexually irresistible to each other."[13]

 

[haidut]

Dozens of subsequent papers reinforce these conclusions. For example, HIV patients with strong social support have lower levels of the virusthan those without. Women have better chances of surviving colorectal cancer if they have strong connections. Young children who are socially isolated appear more likely to suffer from coronary heart disease and type 2 diabetes in adulthood. Most remarkably, older patients with either one or two chronic diseases do not have higher death rates than those who are not suffering from chronic disease – as long as they have high levels of social support.

The town that’s found a potent cure for illness – community | George Monbiot

Thanks, and here is this related line from Peat.
"...Oppression leads to destruction of community and social ties due to people turning on each other. Thus oppression = isolation and overload of individuals with trauma that cannot be diffused through others. And to make things worse, if everybody else has high levels of trauma as well then nobody can diffuse theirs even if the community was tight. Truly a tragedy."
Cholesterol, longevity, intelligence, and health.
"...But those harmful factors all had their defenders: Who defends socioeconomic stress? All of the social institutions that fail to alleviate it. In 1847, Rudolph Virchow was sent to Poland to study the health situation there, and when he returned, the highly regarded anatomist, physiologist and pathologist announced that the Poles wouldn't have a health problem if the government would stop oppressing them, and institute economic reforms to alleviate their poverty. The reforms weren't made, and Virchow lost his job. Other harmful factors, such as seed oils, degraded foods, and radiation, have specific, very well organized and powerful lobbies to defend them. "

 

[haidut]

Wright Laboratory won the 2007 Ig Nobel Peace Prize for "instigating research & development on a chemical weapon — the so-called 'gay bomb' / 'poof bomb' — that will make enemy soldiers become sexually irresistible to each other."[13]

Yep, and I am pretty sure all of this research is still ongoing. It's just not very publicized I suspect the initial announcement was to test the public's reaction and since it was highly negative (e.g awarding the Ig Nobel) now it continues mostly in secret.

 

[LUH 3417]

Thanks, and here is this related line from Peat. Oppression leads to destruction of community and social ties due to people turning on each other. Thus oppression = isolation and overload of individuals with trauma that cannot be diffused through others. And to make things worse, if everybody else has high levels of trauma as well then nobody can diffuse theirs even if the community was tight. Truly a tragedy.
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/cholesterol-longevity.shtml
"...But those harmful factors all had their defenders: Who defends socioeconomic stress? All of the social institutions that fail to alleviate it. In 1847, Rudolph Virchow was sent to Poland to study the health situation there, and when he returned, the highly regarded anatomist, physiologist and pathologist announced that the Poles wouldn't have a health problem if the government would stop oppressing them, and institute economic reforms to alleviate their poverty. The reforms weren't made, and Virchow lost his job. Other harmful factors, such as seed oils, degraded foods, and radiation, have specific, very well organized and powerful lobbies to defend them. "

I’m glad you reposted that, one of my favorite excerpts from Peat’s writings.

 

[Mossy]

In a "state of nature," the people who need support might find it from a cohesive group, rather than a disparate collection of individuals. For example, certain African tribes have collective rituals in which a mentally ill or traumatized person is reintegrated into the community, by the whole community acting in concert. Theoretically, we might expect this to diffuse the "synaptic load," so that the total load borne by any given community member is tolerably low. Thus, it is modern atomization that creates the tragedy. Michel Houellebecq wrote a brilliant novel about it called "The Elementary Particles."

This is interesting and consistent with my experience in our "modern" culture. Some may see this to be an exaggeration--I think not--but those of us in the West have zero-to-little culture/community/cohesiveness. The anxiety, trauma, and physiological problems should be no mystery.

 

[Peatogenic]

I'm confused by the first paragraph of what we've known for centuries. Assuming this is alluding to how trauma gets passed down generationally, within families, etc...but are you implying that the cause of this is hormonal exchange? Aren't there other elements such as abuse which can alter the mind? I don't exactly understand how trauma is being defined as hormones....I can certainly see how trauma could alter someone's hormones, but difficulty seeing it as a pheremone exchange...

There's also a psychoanalytical term called "repetition Compulsion" where traumatized people are attracted to traumatized people. Again, I've previously seen this as primarily personality affinities, or wanting to reenact trauma, but perhaps it's the actual pheremone which are the attraction fa ror

This is an amazing study, which goes a long way in confirming what has been anecdotally known for centuries - bad experiences affect not only the individual experiencing them but everybody else this traumatized individual is in closed contact with. With one exception - psychopaths - who are largely immune to the induction of both first-hand and second-hand traumatic memories. In addition, the study shows that the trauma can be transmitted more than one individual away - i.e. the second-hand traumatized individual can traumatize a third or even further away removed individual. I don't know how far this "virulence" of trauma extends but the study makes it sound like there is no real limit to distance of propagation. This reminds of the older studies done in the 60s and 70s, which showed that medical staff working long shifts in hospitals with specific patients tend to acquire and even die of the same condition as their patients. This seems to be especially true of cancer and psychiatric conditions, but I suspect is present in all disease as the alarm signal does not discriminate among diseases.
The study also shows that the activation of the brain region responsible for releasing CRH is needed for both the induction of PTSD in the subject and the release of the "trauma" pheromone. While the study does not mention what that "trauma" pheromone might be, I suspect that it is a mix of oxytocin/estrogen/cortisol. Besides the obvious involvement of CRH (which stimulates cortisol release), in the studied mice the trauma signal was mostly released from the neck/genital area where oxytocin and estrogen are most likely to accumulate. In addition, humans exposed to oxytocin respond respond with elevated oxytocin levels themselves and activation of HPTA (cortisol). The good news is that pregnenolone should be able to block some of that pathway (CRH), as shown in another study I posted some time ago.
Pregnenolone Is The Most Potent Inhibitor Of The Stress Signal (CRH)
If oxytocin/estrogen/cortisol are involved in that "trauma" virulence signal then progesterone (or androgens) may also help limit the infectiousness of the traumatic experience and protect the larger populace as progesterone is known to block the oxytocin/estrogen/cortisol triad.


Social transmission and buffering of synaptic changes after stress
"...We found that stress primed glutamate synapses on PVN CRH neurons. This synaptic load was transmitted to naive individuals from the stressed subject. In addition, in females, but not males, the partner buffered the synaptic load in stressed individuals. Activation of PVN CRH neurons in the stressed subject seemed to be necessary to release a putative alarm pheromone. In the naive partner, PVN CRH neuron activation was required for investigative behavior and synaptic priming. Finally, the synaptic load could be transferred by the partner to a third member of the group (Supplementary Fig. 16). Priming of glutamate synapses in response to either authentic or transmitted stress unmasked associative STP. This STP, which lasted for at least a day after the stress, but might persist for several days [6] , requires the availability of CRHR1; this is consistent with earlier descriptions of STP in rats following immobilization or predator odor stress6 . The CRHR1-dependent downregulation of NMDA receptors allows for multi-vesicular glutamate release immediately following tetanization6 . Photostimulation of PVN CRH neurons, even in the absence of stress, was sufficient to unmask STP, whereas photoinhibition during stress prevented STP. These observations demonstrate that activation of PVN CRH neurons is both necessary and sufficient for the induction of STP. Combined with the finding that CRHR1 is required for STP, we conclude that locally released CRH binds to CRHR1, creating a synaptic environment that is permissive for STP. Abnormalities in the CRH system are evident in post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) and other stress-related affective disorders, such as anxiety and depression28, and recent work has implicated PVN CRH neurons as drivers of anxiety-like behaviors26,29. Although STP is a reliable consequence of acute stress, the endocrine response is not an accurate predictor of STP. More specifically, elevated CORT levels do not predict the occurrence of STP. CORT levels were elevated in both male and female subjects following exposure to either FS or NE; only female subjects, however, showed STP following NE exposure. This suggests that the consequence of stress on synapses is both graded and sex dependent and is consistent with our previous findings that relatively mild stressors have profound consequences for CRH neurons in females 2 . Although we have not explored the mechanisms responsible for this differential sensitivity, they may result from previously described sex differences in CRHR1 signaling30. Synaptic priming in both male and female mice is transmissible. Once synapses in a subject are loaded, regardless of the stress (FS or NE), transmission of the synaptic load to a partner occurs reliably following social interaction with the stressed subject. Thus, not only is stress transmitted from a stressed subject to partners, as previously reported in rodents9,11,13 and humans31, but the enduring synaptic consequence of stress, or the synaptic load, is also transmitted from subject to partners. These findings suggest that, in addition to consoling the stressed individual, affiliative behaviors in humans7 , primates8 and rodents9–11 may serve a strategic purpose by communicating information about a stressful event. Social interaction also modifies synaptic load in female subjects. Specifically, STP was reduced in stressed female subjects returned to a partner in the homecage, suggesting that the presence of a partner buffers the lingering effects of acute stress in females. This is consistent with previous work suggesting that females, through a ‘tend and befriend’ strategy, may buffer the effects of stress more effectively than males32. Given that STP is induced even if no time elapses between FS and slice preparation, CRH neurons must encode the biochemical signals of stress very rapidly. This also means that the 30-min interaction between females is not buffering the induction of the stress-associated biochemical changes necessary for STP, but instead is likely reducing the changes that have already occurred. The mechanisms through which this occurs are not known, although a recent report showing that oxytocin—a hormone that has been implicated in pro-social33, attachment34 and consolation behaviors11—decreases spontaneous glutamatergic drive to CRH neurons35, providing an interesting avenue for future studies. We observed that the partner acquires information from a stressed subject via olfaction. Partners engaged in sniffing behavior that was directed predominantly toward the anogenital region of the stressed subject, but also directed sniffing behavior toward the head/torso region, likely detecting pheromones from perianal glands and whisker pads, respectively22. This directional sniffing behavior toward a stressed conspecific has been reported previously13,20. Notably, exposing a single mouse to alarm pheromone while restricting its behavior in a NE results in avoidance behavior toward the alarm pheromone36. By contrast, mice housed in groups of three and exposed to alarm pheromone in their homecage show increased activity and seek out, rather than avoid, the source of the odor36. This suggests that social context and environment influence behaviors of mice toward alarm pheromones. Alarm pheromones released from the anal glands induce a stress response in recipients and are hypothesized to be critical for communicating stress 21,22,37. Our findings support this hypothesis, as partners of FS mice discriminated between anogenital sniffing and head/torso sniffing, spending more time anogenital sniffing; partners of NE subjects did not. Furthermore, mice that were exposed to a swab from the anogenital region of a stressed subject showed reliable STP, similar to stressed individuals; this STP was greater than that of mice exposed to a swab from the head/torso region of a stressed subject. Thus, although we cannot dismiss the involvement of other modes of communication, such as ultrasonic vocalizations38,39, our findings strongly support alarm pheromone, specifically from the anogenital region, as the predominant method of communication of stress and STP from subject to partner. The volatile chemicals released by mice under alarm conditions share common features with predator scents (kairomones)24. Both are detected by the vomeronasal organ40,41 and Grueneberg ganglion cells42 in mice, and may recruit parallel pathways43 that converge in the ventromedial hypothalamus44. Alarm pheromones activate key stress nuclei, including the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis, amygdala, dorsomedial hypothalamus and the PVN23. Although the pathway through which mouse alarm pheromone specifically activates PVN CRH neurons is not known, work using predator odors implicates a pathway from the olfactory bulb to the amygdalo-piriform transition area, which projects directly to PVN CRH neurons23,25. Our data indicate that the activity of PVN CRH neurons and recruitment of CRHR1 in the partner is required for anogenital sniffing to occur. This may be important in the initial arousal of the partner following the return of the subject to the homecage; in the absence of this arousal, the partner fails to approach or investigate the subject. When CRHR1 was inhibited in the stressed subject during and following stress, partner mice still exhibited anogenital sniffing. Similarly, photo-inhibition of PVN CRH neurons in the stressed subject during and following stress had no effect on sniffing by the partner. In both experiments, the initial arousal of the partner following the return of the subject to the homecage likely triggered this investigative behavior. In both experiments, however, STP in the partner was significantly reduced, as if the signal antecedent to the synaptic changes was not fully transmitted from subject to partner. It is plausible that, although partner mice engaged in anogenital sniffing behavior, the signal required to activate and prime PVN CRH neurons was not released by the subject. In support of this hypothesis are findings that photoactivation of PVN CRH neurons in a subject mouse in the absence of stress triggered anogenital sniffing behavior by the partner and resulted in STP in the partner. Here, activation of PVN CRH neurons in the subject initiated a currently unknown signaling cascade that culminated in the release of an alarm pheromone. PVN CRH neurons are therefore upstream of the alarm pheromone production in stressed subjects and are essential for generating the specific behaviors required for seeking out and detecting alarm pheromones in partners. These observations position PVN CRH neurons as central controllers in communication via alarm signals. From an ethological perspective, the ability to buffer the effects of stress11 while simultaneously extracting experiential information from the distressed individual has clear adaptive benefits. This information may promote coalition formation during times of stress45 while editing neural circuits to prepare for subsequent challenges without subjecting all group members to danger directly. In humans, buffering or consolation behavior is nearly universal32, yet our findings suggest that the partner, or consoling individual, may experience long-term synaptic consequences similar to those of the distressed individual. This may, for example, offer a potential explanation for why individuals who have themselves not experienced a trauma develop PTSD symptoms after learning of the trauma of others."

 

[Peatogenic]

I wonder if it also works the same in reverse...positive, life giving hormones cause the same around you...there is however that saying that misery loves company, and not a really a corollary.

Is there such a thing as good hormones vs. bad hormones?

 

[Spokey]

For a little while I had symptoms that quite closely fit a diagnosis of PTSD or CPTSD which was odd because I couldn't identify the cause, but it was in conjunction with being exposed to a certain environment and I did wonder if perhaps there was something about the people there that was rubbing off on me to have these issues. I left that environment and that stuff stopped, even though I have the same concerns minus those directly caused by the environment.

 

[zewe]

I think we have very different definitions of psychopaths. I think you two are thinking of low IQ, low EQ, mentally deranged people who are aggressive, brutish, and violent. In other words brain-damaged people like school shooters and rapists. I actually think these kinds of guys are the opposite of psychopaths--they are so overwhelmed by stress (so very emotional people actually) that they lose control of themselves and take out their rage in acts of aggression like rape/shootings/etc. What I was thinking of when I said psychopath was extremely high-functioning, intelligent, focused, yet completely immune to stress and emotionally detached people like CEOs and presidents like Bill Clinton and JFK and saints. The epitome of this would be saints like Jesus Christ and Krishna,
I'd say Clinton and JFK are the epitome of high dopamine/low serotonin/high GABA. High appetite (both food-wise and sexually) = low serotonin, good public speaking abilities= high GABA, and US presidents obviously have off-the-scale dopamine levels. These kinds of "psychopaths" (i.e. highly emotionally detached pepople) have a high testosterone to cortisol ratio (Increased testosterone to cortisol ratio in psychopathy), and androgens like DHT increase GABA/decrease serotonin/decrease prolactin in the brain whereas cortisol would increase glutamate/serotonin/other stress related hormones/neurotransmitters. Here's one study that somewhat says psychopaths have high GABA (Abnormal interhemispheric connectivity in male psychopathic offenders). It only says high GABA in one hemisphere of the brain though. I remember seeing one study that was more explicit about higher levels of GABA but I can't find it.

Connecting this with saints, again I think we're talking about different kinds of saints. Most modern day priests are actually using God as a way to withdraw from the world and are under severe stress otherwise (so very emotional/overwhelmed by stress), which is probably why there's so much child abuse and sickness among priests, but I'm talking about saints like Jesus Christ, lifelong orthodox traditional Buddhist/Indian monks, and as described in ancient Indian literature: focused, immune to stress, strong, powerful, righteous. And everything in Hindu scriptures like the BG is focused on increasing GABA/dopamine and decreasing serotonin. For example, yoga/pranayama/meditation strongly increase GABA and dopamine while decreasing serotonin: Meditation-Related Increases in GABAB Modulated Cortical Inhibition - ScienceDirect, http://www.encognitive.com/files/Yoga Asana Sessions Increase Brain GABA Levels-- A Pilot Study.pdf and other recommendations in the BG like avoiding sensual pleasure increase dopamine (see Fred Previc's book on The Dopaminergic Mind). All sensual pleasure decreases dopamine, especially sex, which is why there is such a prolactin spike after orgasm, and which is also why all religions say sensual pleasure is bad for you. They're not trying to "control" you.

So I'm kind of rambling right now but basically that's my super sketchy proof on why saints and psychopaths (real saints and psychopaths, not brain-damaged stressed people) are actually very similar in terms of high dopamine, low serotonin, high GABA B (not GABA A) and thus are very immune to stress/other people's problems and are so magnetic/attractive to others in society.

Now that Ive typed this up, I realize what I said has no proof in terms of "academic studies," it was something more intuitive based on past studies I have seen..... If you are talking about school shooters/child abusers/rapists you are absolutely right that excess serotonin/brain damage is playing a role, but I think those people are actually very emotional in that stress gets to them so much that they lose it. The truly stress immune people who aren't bothered by other people's problems are the healthiest ones with high dopamine/high GABA/low serotonin.

@lampofred : I agree with your thinking:

"CEOs of most of the world's largest corporations daily make decisions that destroy the lives of many other human beings. Only about 1 to 3 percent of us are sociopaths - people who don't have normal human feelings and can easily go to sleep at night after having done horrific things. And of that 1 percent of sociopaths, there's probably only a fraction of a percent with a college education. And of that tiny fraction, there's an even tinier fraction that understands how business works, particularly within any specific industry. Thus there is such a shortage of people who can run modern monopolistic, destructive corporations that stockholders have to pay millions to get them to work. And being sociopaths, they gladly take the money without any thought to its social consequences."
Thom Hartman

 

[lollipop]

For a little while I had symptoms that quite closely fit a diagnosis of PTSD or CPTSD which was odd because I couldn't identify the cause, but it was in conjunction with being exposed to a certain environment and I did wonder if perhaps there was something about the people there that was rubbing off on me to have these issues. I left that environment and that stuff stopped, even though I have the same concerns minus those directly caused by the environment.

I have completely experienced this before. Even the past weekend at a conference. We sat at round tables, the person next to me had a cloud of negativity and was grumpy and complaining. I suddenly got so nervous and hungry and craved snacks - even ate nuts which I never do. In the middle of the lecture kept getting up and going to the snack table like I was starving and had not had lunch. It was so weird, I could not sastify this craving for junk. I am NEVER this way. Finally, she said, “I am out of here. I am bored to tears.” She jumped up and left. Instantly, everything calmed down - all that weird “hunger craving” for junk.

I do think people’s presence does affect us. Adds to the saying that the 5 closest people to you influence greatly your own personality.

 

[pimpnamedraypeat]

These mass shooters aren't psychopaths. They're drugged out psychos.

Psychopaths have measurably different neurology and brains morphology and wouldn't need antidepressants.

Psychopaths have less mirror neuron activation. They don't yawn when you yawn or sneeze when you sneeze or cry when you cry

 

[Peatogenic]

Polyvagal Theory:

 

[haidut]

I'm confused by the first paragraph of what we've known for centuries. Assuming this is alluding to how trauma gets passed down generationally, within families, etc...but are you implying that the cause of this is hormonal exchange? Aren't there other elements such as abuse which can alter the mind? I don't exactly understand how trauma is being defined as hormones....I can certainly see how trauma could alter someone's hormones, but difficulty seeing it as a pheremone exchange...

There's also a psychoanalytical term called "repetition Compulsion" where traumatized people are attracted to traumatized people. Again, I've previously seen this as primarily personality affinities, or wanting to reenact trauma, but perhaps it's the actual pheremone which are the attraction fa ror

The study says the stressed individual emits stress pheromones, which get picked by the other individuals that he/she interacts with and that causes those individuals to also become stressed. Serotonin is probably also involved in internalizing the stress response, and it is known that serotonin rises during stress in both stressor and stressed organisms.
Serotonin Is Involved In The Formation Of Traumatic Memories

 

[Attakai]

I see this with pets as well.
However I also have seen and noticed that really positive happy people seem to overpower this negative response and instead positively affect the stressed individual.

 

[Kyle Bigman]

How come whenever I take a tiny dose of pregnegnelone, no matter how small, I get an insane stress response, like adrenaline and anxiety, for hours ?

 

[broozer]

These mass shooters aren't psychopaths. They're drugged out psychos.

Psychopaths have measurably different neurology and brains morphology and wouldn't need antidepressants.

Psychopaths have less mirror neuron activation. They don't yawn when you yawn or sneeze when you sneeze or cry when you cry

somehow this sounds great. it thinky psychopathy has its good and bad attributes. like psychosis does have both. could a traumatized,anxios and depressed person somehow "learn" from the psychopath brain? or is it a totally different anatomy in anxiety related regions of the brain?

 

[Makrosky]

How come whenever I take a tiny dose of pregnegnelone, no matter how small, I get an insane stress response, like adrenaline and anxiety, for hours ?

Sounds like impurities.

That is very strange. What brand and which route are you using? A good brand like idealabs or healthnatura should not produce that response.

Another option is you are taking it with very low glycogen stores like first thing in the morning empty stomach. But even that would be rare.