PTSD / Trauma Is Contagious, Can Be Transmitted Via Odor/pheromones

[mangoes]

@denise Ah yeah, my mistake! Thanks for the helpful post! I'm glad to hear it's available online, I'll check out Feldenkrais too

 

[denise]

@denise Ah yeah, my mistake! Thanks for the helpful post! I'm glad to hear it's available online, I'll check out Feldenkrais too

For Feldenkrais, search for Alfons on YouTube for lots of free things to try. Ryan Nagy also has some very good and affordable audios.

 

[InChristAlone]

So glad people are talking about trauma here! Somatic experiencing has been life changing for me. Over the course of a yr I have developed more of a sense of safety in my body whereas before I didn't feel safe, my own body sensations scared me. I just went through getting bit by our adopted dog. And because I knew I had to let my body go through the whole process I feel like I won't have any lasting trauma (besides never wanting a greyhound again!).

 

[Regina]

This is an amazing study, which goes a long way in confirming what has been anecdotally known for centuries - bad experiences affect not only the individual experiencing them but everybody else this traumatized individual is in closed contact with. With one exception - psychopaths - who are largely immune to the induction of both first-hand and second-hand traumatic memories. In addition, the study shows that the trauma can be transmitted more than one individual away - i.e. the second-hand traumatized individual can traumatize a third or even further away removed individual. I don't know how far this "virulence" of trauma extends but the study makes it sound like there is no real limit to distance of propagation. This reminds of the older studies done in the 60s and 70s, which showed that medical staff working long shifts in hospitals with specific patients tend to acquire and even die of the same condition as their patients. This seems to be especially true of cancer and psychiatric conditions, but I suspect is present in all disease as the alarm signal does not discriminate among diseases.
The study also shows that the activation of the brain region responsible for releasing CRH is needed for both the induction of PTSD in the subject and the release of the "trauma" pheromone. While the study does not mention what that "trauma" pheromone might be, I suspect that it is a mix of oxytocin/estrogen/cortisol. Besides the obvious involvement of CRH (which stimulates cortisol release), in the studied mice the trauma signal was mostly released from the neck/genital area where oxytocin and estrogen are most likely to accumulate. In addition, humans exposed to oxytocin respond respond with elevated oxytocin levels themselves and activation of HPTA (cortisol). The good news is that pregnenolone should be able to block some of that pathway (CRH), as shown in another study I posted some time ago.
Pregnenolone Is The Most Potent Inhibitor Of The Stress Signal (CRH)
If oxytocin/estrogen/cortisol are involved in that "trauma" virulence signal then progesterone (or androgens) may also help limit the infectiousness of the traumatic experience and protect the larger populace as progesterone is known to block the oxytocin/estrogen/cortisol triad.


Social transmission and buffering of synaptic changes after stress
"...We found that stress primed glutamate synapses on PVN CRH neurons. This synaptic load was transmitted to naive individuals from the stressed subject. In addition, in females, but not males, the partner buffered the synaptic load in stressed individuals. Activation of PVN CRH neurons in the stressed subject seemed to be necessary to release a putative alarm pheromone. In the naive partner, PVN CRH neuron activation was required for investigative behavior and synaptic priming. Finally, the synaptic load could be transferred by the partner to a third member of the group (Supplementary Fig. 16). Priming of glutamate synapses in response to either authentic or transmitted stress unmasked associative STP. This STP, which lasted for at least a day after the stress, but might persist for several days [6] , requires the availability of CRHR1; this is consistent with earlier descriptions of STP in rats following immobilization or predator odor stress6 . The CRHR1-dependent downregulation of NMDA receptors allows for multi-vesicular glutamate release immediately following tetanization6 . Photostimulation of PVN CRH neurons, even in the absence of stress, was sufficient to unmask STP, whereas photoinhibition during stress prevented STP. These observations demonstrate that activation of PVN CRH neurons is both necessary and sufficient for the induction of STP. Combined with the finding that CRHR1 is required for STP, we conclude that locally released CRH binds to CRHR1, creating a synaptic environment that is permissive for STP. Abnormalities in the CRH system are evident in post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) and other stress-related affective disorders, such as anxiety and depression28, and recent work has implicated PVN CRH neurons as drivers of anxiety-like behaviors26,29. Although STP is a reliable consequence of acute stress, the endocrine response is not an accurate predictor of STP. More specifically, elevated CORT levels do not predict the occurrence of STP. CORT levels were elevated in both male and female subjects following exposure to either FS or NE; only female subjects, however, showed STP following NE exposure. This suggests that the consequence of stress on synapses is both graded and sex dependent and is consistent with our previous findings that relatively mild stressors have profound consequences for CRH neurons in females 2 . Although we have not explored the mechanisms responsible for this differential sensitivity, they may result from previously described sex differences in CRHR1 signaling30. Synaptic priming in both male and female mice is transmissible. Once synapses in a subject are loaded, regardless of the stress (FS or NE), transmission of the synaptic load to a partner occurs reliably following social interaction with the stressed subject. Thus, not only is stress transmitted from a stressed subject to partners, as previously reported in rodents9,11,13 and humans31, but the enduring synaptic consequence of stress, or the synaptic load, is also transmitted from subject to partners. These findings suggest that, in addition to consoling the stressed individual, affiliative behaviors in humans7 , primates8 and rodents9–11 may serve a strategic purpose by communicating information about a stressful event. Social interaction also modifies synaptic load in female subjects. Specifically, STP was reduced in stressed female subjects returned to a partner in the homecage, suggesting that the presence of a partner buffers the lingering effects of acute stress in females. This is consistent with previous work suggesting that females, through a ‘tend and befriend’ strategy, may buffer the effects of stress more effectively than males32. Given that STP is induced even if no time elapses between FS and slice preparation, CRH neurons must encode the biochemical signals of stress very rapidly. This also means that the 30-min interaction between females is not buffering the induction of the stress-associated biochemical changes necessary for STP, but instead is likely reducing the changes that have already occurred. The mechanisms through which this occurs are not known, although a recent report showing that oxytocin—a hormone that has been implicated in pro-social33, attachment34 and consolation behaviors11—decreases spontaneous glutamatergic drive to CRH neurons35, providing an interesting avenue for future studies. We observed that the partner acquires information from a stressed subject via olfaction. Partners engaged in sniffing behavior that was directed predominantly toward the anogenital region of the stressed subject, but also directed sniffing behavior toward the head/torso region, likely detecting pheromones from perianal glands and whisker pads, respectively22. This directional sniffing behavior toward a stressed conspecific has been reported previously13,20. Notably, exposing a single mouse to alarm pheromone while restricting its behavior in a NE results in avoidance behavior toward the alarm pheromone36. By contrast, mice housed in groups of three and exposed to alarm pheromone in their homecage show increased activity and seek out, rather than avoid, the source of the odor36. This suggests that social context and environment influence behaviors of mice toward alarm pheromones. Alarm pheromones released from the anal glands induce a stress response in recipients and are hypothesized to be critical for communicating stress 21,22,37. Our findings support this hypothesis, as partners of FS mice discriminated between anogenital sniffing and head/torso sniffing, spending more time anogenital sniffing; partners of NE subjects did not. Furthermore, mice that were exposed to a swab from the anogenital region of a stressed subject showed reliable STP, similar to stressed individuals; this STP was greater than that of mice exposed to a swab from the head/torso region of a stressed subject. Thus, although we cannot dismiss the involvement of other modes of communication, such as ultrasonic vocalizations38,39, our findings strongly support alarm pheromone, specifically from the anogenital region, as the predominant method of communication of stress and STP from subject to partner. The volatile chemicals released by mice under alarm conditions share common features with predator scents (kairomones)24. Both are detected by the vomeronasal organ40,41 and Grueneberg ganglion cells42 in mice, and may recruit parallel pathways43 that converge in the ventromedial hypothalamus44. Alarm pheromones activate key stress nuclei, including the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis, amygdala, dorsomedial hypothalamus and the PVN23. Although the pathway through which mouse alarm pheromone specifically activates PVN CRH neurons is not known, work using predator odors implicates a pathway from the olfactory bulb to the amygdalo-piriform transition area, which projects directly to PVN CRH neurons23,25. Our data indicate that the activity of PVN CRH neurons and recruitment of CRHR1 in the partner is required for anogenital sniffing to occur. This may be important in the initial arousal of the partner following the return of the subject to the homecage; in the absence of this arousal, the partner fails to approach or investigate the subject. When CRHR1 was inhibited in the stressed subject during and following stress, partner mice still exhibited anogenital sniffing. Similarly, photo-inhibition of PVN CRH neurons in the stressed subject during and following stress had no effect on sniffing by the partner. In both experiments, the initial arousal of the partner following the return of the subject to the homecage likely triggered this investigative behavior. In both experiments, however, STP in the partner was significantly reduced, as if the signal antecedent to the synaptic changes was not fully transmitted from subject to partner. It is plausible that, although partner mice engaged in anogenital sniffing behavior, the signal required to activate and prime PVN CRH neurons was not released by the subject. In support of this hypothesis are findings that photoactivation of PVN CRH neurons in a subject mouse in the absence of stress triggered anogenital sniffing behavior by the partner and resulted in STP in the partner. Here, activation of PVN CRH neurons in the subject initiated a currently unknown signaling cascade that culminated in the release of an alarm pheromone. PVN CRH neurons are therefore upstream of the alarm pheromone production in stressed subjects and are essential for generating the specific behaviors required for seeking out and detecting alarm pheromones in partners. These observations position PVN CRH neurons as central controllers in communication via alarm signals. From an ethological perspective, the ability to buffer the effects of stress11 while simultaneously extracting experiential information from the distressed individual has clear adaptive benefits. This information may promote coalition formation during times of stress45 while editing neural circuits to prepare for subsequent challenges without subjecting all group members to danger directly. In humans, buffering or consolation behavior is nearly universal32, yet our findings suggest that the partner, or consoling individual, may experience long-term synaptic consequences similar to those of the distressed individual. This may, for example, offer a potential explanation for why individuals who have themselves not experienced a trauma develop PTSD symptoms after learning of the trauma of others."

haidut, what exactly is it that immunes the psychopath? What does or does not he/she possess to block trauma? Thank you

 

[lampofred]

haidut, what exactly is it that immunes the psychopath? What does or does not he/she possess to block trauma? Thank you

Something monks and psychopaths have in common is a higher-than-average level of GABA, which leads to emotional detachment.

 

[Regina]

Something monks and psychopaths have in common is a higher-than-average level of GABA, which leads to emotional detachment.

Thanks lampofred, do you having any sources that I might read for this?
In my personal experience (I trained with a Rinzai Zen monk), really highly adept monks have the "free and unrestricted seeing" ability to grasp a given situation and can also fully focus on whatever they are doing. But this is very different from a psychopath.
Hmm, GABA. I don't know about that. Low GABA is involved in unwanted intrusive thoughts; but I would not consider that empathy.

 

[ImprovingDaily]

Your comment reminded me of a book called Saints and Psychopaths by Bill Hamilton. He was the teacher of prominent Buddhist teachers like Daniel Ingram and Kenneth Folk and in the book he talks about the difference between a Saint and a Psychopath. They surprisingly have quite a bit of similarities .

 

[haidut]

haidut, what exactly is it that immunes the psychopath? What does or does not he/she possess to block trauma? Thank you

High serotonin - numbs them but at the same time makes them very manipulative, authoritarian, and (if high enough) psychotic. There is a lot of research on serotonin and serial killers. If you Google for it you will get some very interesting studies. Most of the mass shooters in US were on an SSRI or another drug that raises serotonin as a side effect. That is not a coincidence.

 

[haidut]

Something monks and psychopaths have in common is a higher-than-average level of GABA, which leads to emotional detachment.

I would like to see some evidence for that as I have seen high serotonin linked to psychopathy and serotonin is usually inversely correlated with GABA/dopamine.

 

[Regina]

High serotonin - numbs them but at the same time makes them very manipulative, authoritarian, and (if high enough) psychotic. There is a lot of research on serotonin and serial killers. If you Google for it you will get some very interesting studies. Most of the mass shooters in US were on an SSRI or another drug that raises serotonin as a side effect. That is not a coincidence.

This makes the most sense. I've met them (in aikido and a few elsewhere). Thanks!

 

[LUH 3417]

I would like to see some evidence for that as I have seen high serotonin linked to psychopathy and serotonin is usually inversely correlated with GABA/dopamine.

Haidut can you make an anti CIA supplement?

 

[Fractality]

High serotonin - numbs them but at the same time makes them very manipulative, authoritarian, and (if high enough) psychotic. There is a lot of research on serotonin and serial killers. If you Google for it you will get some very interesting studies. Most of the mass shooters in US were on an SSRI or another drug that raises serotonin as a side effect. That is not a coincidence.

This seems contradictory to me as there are studies that link serotonin to the formation of traumatic memories. In fact, I believe you quoted a study about that. How can serotonin numb them but also be the reason for the formation of traumatic memories?

 

[Mito]

There is a lot of research on serotonin and serial killers. If you Google for it you will get some very interesting studies. Most of the mass shooters in US were on an SSRI or another drug that raises serotonin as a side effect. That is not a coincidence.

Consider the following history:

Eric Harris age 17 (first on Zoloft then Luvox) and Dylan Klebold aged 18 (Columbine school shooting in Littleton, Colorado), killed 12 students and 1 teacher and wounded 23 others, before killing themselves. Klebold’s medical records have never been made available to the public.

• Jeff Weise, age 16, had been prescribed 60 mgh/day of Prozac (three times the average starting dose for adults!) when he shot his grandfather, his grandfather’s girlfriend and many fellow students at Red Lake, Minnesota. He then shot himself. 10 dead, 12 wounded.
• Cory Baadsgaard, age 16, Wahluke (Washington state) High School, was on Paxil (which caused him to have hallucinations) when he took a rifle to his high school and held 23 classmates hostage. He has no memory of the event.
• Chris Fetters, age 13, while taking Prozac, killed his favorite aunt.
• Christopher Pittman, age 12, murdered both his grandparents while taking Zoloft.
• Mathew Miller, age 13, hung himself in his bedroom closet after taking Zoloft for 6 days.
• Kip Kinkel, age 15, (on Prozac and Ritalin) shot his parents while they slept then went to school and opened fire killing 2 classmates and injuring 22 shortly after beginning Prozac treatment.
• Luke Woodham, age 16 (Prozac) killed his mother and then killed tw
• Michael Carneal (Ritalin), age 14, opened fire on students at a high school prayer meeting in West Paducah, Kentucky. Three teenagers were killed, five others were wounded.
• Andrew Golden, age 11, (Ritalin) and Mitchell Johnson, aged 14, (Ritalin) shot 15 people, killing four students, one teacher, and wounding 10 others.
• TJ Solomon, age 15, (Ritalin) high school student in Conyers, Georgia opened fire on and wounded six of his classmates.
• James Wilson, age 19, (various psychiatric drugs) from Breenwood, South Carolina, took a .22 caliber revolver into an elementary school killing two young girls and wounding seven other children and two teachers.
• Elizabeth Bush, age 13, (Paxil) was responsible for a school shooting in Pennsylvania
• Jason Hoffman (Effexor and Celexa) – school shooting in El Cajon, California
• Jarred Viktor, age 15, (Paxil), after five days on Paxil he stabbed his grandmother 61 times.
• Chris Shanahan, age 15 (Paxil) in Rigby, ID who, for no apparent motive, killed a woman.
• Jeff Franklin (Prozac and Ritalin), Huntsville, AL, killed his parents as they came home from work using a sledgehammer, hatchet, butcher knife and mechanic’s file, then attacked his younger brothers and sister.
• Kevin Rider, age 14, was withdrawing from Prozac when he died from a gunshot wound to his head. Initially, it was ruled a suicide, but two years later, the investigation into his death was opened as a possible homicide. The prime suspect, also age 14, had been taking Zoloft and other SSRI antidepressants.
• Alex Kim, age 13, hung himself shortly after his Lexapro prescription had been doubled.
• Diane Routhier was prescribed Welbutrin for gallstone problems. Six days later, after suffering many adverse effects of the drug, she shot herself.
• Billy Willkomm, an accomplished wrestler and a University of Florida student, was prescribed Prozac at the age of 17. His family found him dead of suicide – hanging from a ladder at the family’s home in July 2002.
• Kara Jaye Anne Fuller-Otter, age 12, was on Paxil when she hung herself from a hook in her closet. Kara’s parents said “…. the damn doctor wouldn’t take her off it and I asked him to when we went in on the second visit. I told him I thought she was having some sort of reaction to Paxil…”)
• Gareth Christian, Vancouver, age 18, was on Paxil when he committed suicide in 2002, (Gareth’s father could not accept his son’s death and killed himself.)
• Julie Woodward, age 17, was on Zoloft when she hung herself in her family’s garage.
• Matthew Miller was 13 when he saw a psychiatrist because he was having difficulty at school. The psychiatrist gave him samples of Zoloft. Seven days later his mother found him dead, hanging by a belt in his closet.
• Kurt Danysh, age 18, and on Prozac, killed his father with a shotgun. He is now behind bars, and writes letters, trying to warn the world that SSRI drugs can kill.
• Woody __, age 37, committed suicide while in his 5th week of taking Zoloft. Shortly before his death, his physician suggested doubling the dose of the drug. He had seen his physician only for insomnia. He had never been depressed, nor did he have any history of
• Hammad Memon, age 15, shot and killed a fellow middle school student. He had been diagnosed with ADHD and depression and was taking Zoloft and “other drugs for the conditions.”
• Matti Saari, a 22-year-old culinary student, shot and killed 9 students and a teacher, and wounded another student, before killing himself. Saari was taking an SSRI and a benzodiazepine.
• Steven Kazmierczak, age 27, shot and killed five people and wounded 21 others before killing himself in a Northern Illinois University auditorium. According to his girlfriend, he had recently been taking Prozac, Xanax, and Ambien. Toxicology results showed that he still had trace amounts of Xanax in his system.
• Finnish gunman Pekka-Eric Auvinen, age 18, had been taking antidepressants before he killed eight people and wounded a dozen more at Jokela High School – then he committed suicide.
• Asa Coon, Cleveland, age 14, shot and wounded four before taking his own life. Court records show Coon was on Trazodone.
• Jon Romano, age 16, on medication for depression, fired a shotgun at a teacher in his New York high school.

More Horrific Killings - LewRockwell LewRockwell.com

 

[lampofred]

High serotonin - numbs them but at the same time makes them very manipulative, authoritarian, and (if high enough) psychotic. There is a lot of research on serotonin and serial killers. If you Google for it you will get some very interesting studies. Most of the mass shooters in US were on an SSRI or another drug that raises serotonin as a side effect. That is not a coincidence.

I would like to see some evidence for that as I have seen high serotonin linked to psychopathy and serotonin is usually inversely correlated with GABA/dopamine.

Thanks lampofred, do you having any sources that I might read for this?
In my personal experience (I trained with a Rinzai Zen monk), really highly adept monks have the "free and unrestricted seeing" ability to grasp a given situation and can also fully focus on whatever they are doing. But this is very different from a psychopath.
Hmm, GABA. I don't know about that. Low GABA is involved in unwanted intrusive thoughts; but I would not consider that empathy.

I think we have very different definitions of psychopaths. I think you two are thinking of low IQ, low EQ, mentally deranged people who are aggressive, brutish, and violent. In other words brain-damaged people like school shooters and rapists. I actually think these kinds of guys are the opposite of psychopaths--they are so overwhelmed by stress (so very emotional people actually) that they lose control of themselves and take out their rage in acts of aggression like rape/shootings/etc. What I was thinking of when I said psychopath was extremely high-functioning, intelligent, focused, yet completely immune to stress and emotionally detached people like CEOs and presidents like Bill Clinton and JFK and saints. The epitome of this would be saints like Jesus Christ and Krishna,
I'd say Clinton and JFK are the epitome of high dopamine/low serotonin/high GABA. High appetite (both food-wise and sexually) = low serotonin, good public speaking abilities= high GABA, and US presidents obviously have off-the-scale dopamine levels. These kinds of "psychopaths" (i.e. highly emotionally detached pepople) have a high testosterone to cortisol ratio (Increased testosterone to cortisol ratio in psychopathy), and androgens like DHT increase GABA/decrease serotonin/decrease prolactin in the brain whereas cortisol would increase glutamate/serotonin/other stress related hormones/neurotransmitters. Here's one study that somewhat says psychopaths have high GABA (Abnormal interhemispheric connectivity in male psychopathic offenders). It only says high GABA in one hemisphere of the brain though. I remember seeing one study that was more explicit about higher levels of GABA but I can't find it.

Connecting this with saints, again I think we're talking about different kinds of saints. Most modern day priests are actually using God as a way to withdraw from the world and are under severe stress otherwise (so very emotional/overwhelmed by stress), which is probably why there's so much child abuse and sickness among priests, but I'm talking about saints like Jesus Christ, lifelong orthodox traditional Buddhist/Indian monks, and as described in ancient Indian literature: focused, immune to stress, strong, powerful, righteous. And everything in Hindu scriptures like the BG is focused on increasing GABA/dopamine and decreasing serotonin. For example, yoga/pranayama/meditation strongly increase GABA and dopamine while decreasing serotonin: Meditation-Related Increases in GABAB Modulated Cortical Inhibition - ScienceDirect, http://www.encognitive.com/files/Yoga Asana Sessions Increase Brain GABA Levels-- A Pilot Study.pdf and other recommendations in the BG like avoiding sensual pleasure increase dopamine (see Fred Previc's book on The Dopaminergic Mind). All sensual pleasure decreases dopamine, especially sex, which is why there is such a prolactin spike after orgasm, and which is also why all religions say sensual pleasure is bad for you. They're not trying to "control" you.

So I'm kind of rambling right now but basically that's my super sketchy proof on why saints and psychopaths (real saints and psychopaths, not brain-damaged stressed people) are actually very similar in terms of high dopamine, low serotonin, high GABA B (not GABA A) and thus are very immune to stress/other people's problems and are so magnetic/attractive to others in society.

Now that Ive typed this up, I realize what I said has no proof in terms of "academic studies," it was something more intuitive based on past studies I have seen..... If you are talking about school shooters/child abusers/rapists you are absolutely right that excess serotonin/brain damage is playing a role, but I think those people are actually very emotional in that stress gets to them so much that they lose it. The truly stress immune people who aren't bothered by other people's problems are the healthiest ones with high dopamine/high GABA/low serotonin.

 

[LUH 3417]

I think we have very different definitions of psychopaths. I think you two are thinking of low IQ, low EQ, mentally deranged people who are aggressive, brutish, and violent. In other words brain-damaged people like school shooters and rapists. I actually think these kinds of guys are the opposite of psychopaths--they are so overwhelmed by stress (so very emotional people actually) that they lose control of themselves and take out their rage in acts of aggression like rape/shootings/etc. What I was thinking of when I said psychopath was extremely high-functioning, intelligent, focused, yet completely immune to stress and emotionally detached people like CEOs and presidents like Bill Clinton and JFK and saints.

I'd say Clinton and JFK are the epitome of high dopamine/low serotonin/high GABA. High appetite (both food-wise and sexually) = low serotonin, good public speaking abilities= high GABA, and US presidents obviously have off-the-scale dopamine levels. These kinds of "psychopaths" (i.e. highly emotionally detached pepople) have a high testosterone to cortisol ratio (Increased testosterone to cortisol ratio in psychopathy), and androgens like DHT increase GABA/decrease serotonin/decrease prolactin in the brain whereas cortisol would increase glutamate/serotonin/other stress hormones. Here's one study that somewhat says psychopaths have high GABA (Abnormal interhemispheric connectivity in male psychopathic offenders). It only says high GABA in one hemisphere of the brain though. I remember seeing one study that was more explicit about higher levels of GABA but I can't find it.

Connecting this with saints, again I think we're talking about different kinds of saints. Most modern day priests are actually using God as a way to withdraw from the world and are under severe stress otherwise (so very emotional/overwhelmed by stress), which is probably why there's so much child abuse and sickness among priests, but I'm talking about saints like Jesus Christ and as described in ancient Indian literature: focused, immune to stress, strong, powerful, righteous. And everything in Hindu scriptures like the BG is focused on increasing GABA/dopamine and decreasing serotonin. For example, yoga/pranayama/meditation strongly increase GABA and dopamine while decreasing serotonin: Meditation-Related Increases in GABAB Modulated Cortical Inhibition - ScienceDirect, http://www.encognitive.com/files/Yoga Asana Sessions Increase Brain GABA Levels-- A Pilot Study.pdf and other recommendations in the BG like avoiding sensual pleasure increase dopamine (see Fred Previc's book on The Dopaminergic Mind). All sensual pleasure decreases dopamine, especially sex, which is why there is such a prolactin spike after orgasm, and which is also why all religions say sensual pleasure is bad for you. They're not trying to "control" you.

So I'm kind of rambling right now but basically that's my super sketchy proof on why saints and psychopaths (real saints and psychopaths, not brain-damaged stressed people) are actually very similar in terms of high dopamine, low serotonin, high GABA B (not GABA A) and thus are very immune to stress/other people's problems and are so magnetic/attractive to others in society.

So basically what I said has no proof in terms of "academic studies," it was something more intuitive based on past studies I have seen..... If you are talking about school shooters/child abusers/rapists you are absolutely right that excess serotonin/brain damage is playing a role, but I think those people are actually very emotional in that stress gets to them so much that they lose it. The truly stress immune people are the healthiest ones with high dopamine/high GABA/low serotonin.

Maybe that’s what all the heroin wars are about!

 

[Regina]

Your comment reminded me of a book called Saints and Psychopaths by Bill Hamilton. He was the teacher of prominent Buddhist teachers like Daniel Ingram and Kenneth Folk and in the book he talks about the difference between a Saint and a Psychopath. They surprisingly have quite a bit of similarities .

Neat! Michael Tsarion has also talked about it before.
But now, in light of Peat's and haidut's metabolic view of the condition/behavior, much of the myths on the subject lose credibility.
I had a teacher who is incredibly dedicated to both zen and is an aikido master who (for all intents and purposes) became "psychopathic." She was under an enormous amount of stress (trying to control everything) and from everything I have learned here, hypothyroidism, chronically elevated estrogen, cortisol, nitric oxide and serotonin were likely involved.
Another aikido teacher had the same intense paranaoia and need to have sycophant type followers and a coterie entourage at all times.
I've also had 3 zen monk teachers that I believe retain their authenticity as spiritual adepts. The difference: these 3 are not under a whole lot of stress in their personal lives. They are happily married with good jobs.
Fascinating topic though. To see it through a Peat prism helps with understanding the baffling behaviour. With objective understanding comes compassion.

 

[Regina]

I think we have very different definitions of psychopaths. I think you two are thinking of low IQ, low EQ, mentally deranged people who are aggressive, brutish, and violent. In other words brain-damaged people like school shooters and rapists. I actually think these kinds of guys are the opposite of psychopaths--they are so overwhelmed by stress (so very emotional people actually) that they lose control of themselves and take out their rage in acts of aggression like rape/shootings/etc. What I was thinking of when I said psychopath was extremely high-functioning, intelligent, focused, yet completely immune to stress and emotionally detached people like CEOs and presidents like Bill Clinton and JFK and saints. The epitome of this would be saints like Jesus Christ and Krishna,
I'd say Clinton and JFK are the epitome of high dopamine/low serotonin/high GABA. High appetite (both food-wise and sexually) = low serotonin, good public speaking abilities= high GABA, and US presidents obviously have off-the-scale dopamine levels. These kinds of "psychopaths" (i.e. highly emotionally detached pepople) have a high testosterone to cortisol ratio (Increased testosterone to cortisol ratio in psychopathy), and androgens like DHT increase GABA/decrease serotonin/decrease prolactin in the brain whereas cortisol would increase glutamate/serotonin/other stress related hormones/neurotransmitters. Here's one study that somewhat says psychopaths have high GABA (Abnormal interhemispheric connectivity in male psychopathic offenders). It only says high GABA in one hemisphere of the brain though. I remember seeing one study that was more explicit about higher levels of GABA but I can't find it.

Connecting this with saints, again I think we're talking about different kinds of saints. Most modern day priests are actually using God as a way to withdraw from the world and are under severe stress otherwise (so very emotional/overwhelmed by stress), which is probably why there's so much child abuse and sickness among priests, but I'm talking about saints like Jesus Christ, lifelong orthodox traditional Buddhist/Indian monks, and as described in ancient Indian literature: focused, immune to stress, strong, powerful, righteous. And everything in Hindu scriptures like the BG is focused on increasing GABA/dopamine and decreasing serotonin. For example, yoga/pranayama/meditation strongly increase GABA and dopamine while decreasing serotonin: Meditation-Related Increases in GABAB Modulated Cortical Inhibition - ScienceDirect, http://www.encognitive.com/files/Yoga Asana Sessions Increase Brain GABA Levels-- A Pilot Study.pdf and other recommendations in the BG like avoiding sensual pleasure increase dopamine (see Fred Previc's book on The Dopaminergic Mind). All sensual pleasure decreases dopamine, especially sex, which is why there is such a prolactin spike after orgasm, and which is also why all religions say sensual pleasure is bad for you. They're not trying to "control" you.

So I'm kind of rambling right now but basically that's my super sketchy proof on why saints and psychopaths (real saints and psychopaths, not brain-damaged stressed people) are actually very similar in terms of high dopamine, low serotonin, high GABA B (not GABA A) and thus are very immune to stress/other people's problems and are so magnetic/attractive to others in society.

Now that Ive typed this up, I realize what I said has no proof in terms of "academic studies," it was something more intuitive based on past studies I have seen..... If you are talking about school shooters/child abusers/rapists you are absolutely right that excess serotonin/brain damage is playing a role, but I think those people are actually very emotional in that stress gets to them so much that they lose it. The truly stress immune people who aren't bothered by other people's problems are the healthiest ones with high dopamine/high GABA/low serotonin.

Thanks for the write-up. I see what you mean about the patterns. I can see this in my main zen monk teacher. He is very charismatic and has a huge following. I'm not sure what combo of neurotransmitters he leans to; though I have heard that rinzai training at his level, literally re-wires the person. There is a "he is no longer a person" quality to him. Rinzai zen is particularly about mind-to-mind transmission. He is phenomenal at answering questions (koans) with lightning speed and weapons, but he is definitely not a person I would want to be personally intermeshed with. The only thing I do not see is how high dopamine/high GABA/low serotonin would squelch someone's empathy.
Whenever I train with someone who has no empathy, I think high cortisol.
Definitely fascinating topic.
I also like haidut's use of the term "de-differentiating" substances. I feel like I train with people who project and transfer unwanted feelings and pain and are in a state of de-differentiating their environment.

 

[energyandstruct]

I think we have very different definitions of psychopaths. I think you two are thinking of low IQ, low EQ, mentally deranged people who are aggressive, brutish, and violent. In other words brain-damaged people like school shooters and rapists. I actually think these kinds of guys are the opposite of psychopaths--they are so overwhelmed by stress (so very emotional people actually) that they lose control of themselves and take out their rage in acts of aggression like rape/shootings/etc. What I was thinking of when I said psychopath was extremely high-functioning, intelligent, focused, yet completely immune to stress and emotionally detached people like CEOs and presidents like Bill Clinton and JFK and saints. The epitome of this would be saints like Jesus Christ and Krishna,
I'd say Clinton and JFK are the epitome of high dopamine/low serotonin/high GABA. High appetite (both food-wise and sexually) = low serotonin, good public speaking abilities= high GABA, and US presidents obviously have off-the-scale dopamine levels. These kinds of "psychopaths" (i.e. highly emotionally detached pepople) have a high testosterone to cortisol ratio (Increased testosterone to cortisol ratio in psychopathy), and androgens like DHT increase GABA/decrease serotonin/decrease prolactin in the brain whereas cortisol would increase glutamate/serotonin/other stress related hormones/neurotransmitters. Here's one study that somewhat says psychopaths have high GABA (Abnormal interhemispheric connectivity in male psychopathic offenders). It only says high GABA in one hemisphere of the brain though. I remember seeing one study that was more explicit about higher levels of GABA but I can't find it.

Connecting this with saints, again I think we're talking about different kinds of saints. Most modern day priests are actually using God as a way to withdraw from the world and are under severe stress otherwise (so very emotional/overwhelmed by stress), which is probably why there's so much child abuse and sickness among priests, but I'm talking about saints like Jesus Christ, lifelong orthodox traditional Buddhist/Indian monks, and as described in ancient Indian literature: focused, immune to stress, strong, powerful, righteous. And everything in Hindu scriptures like the BG is focused on increasing GABA/dopamine and decreasing serotonin. For example, yoga/pranayama/meditation strongly increase GABA and dopamine while decreasing serotonin: Meditation-Related Increases in GABAB Modulated Cortical Inhibition - ScienceDirect, http://www.encognitive.com/files/Yoga Asana Sessions Increase Brain GABA Levels-- A Pilot Study.pdf and other recommendations in the BG like avoiding sensual pleasure increase dopamine (see Fred Previc's book on The Dopaminergic Mind). All sensual pleasure decreases dopamine, especially sex, which is why there is such a prolactin spike after orgasm, and which is also why all religions say sensual pleasure is bad for you. They're not trying to "control" you.

So I'm kind of rambling right now but basically that's my super sketchy proof on why saints and psychopaths (real saints and psychopaths, not brain-damaged stressed people) are actually very similar in terms of high dopamine, low serotonin, high GABA B (not GABA A) and thus are very immune to stress/other people's problems and are so magnetic/attractive to others in society.

Now that Ive typed this up, I realize what I said has no proof in terms of "academic studies," it was something more intuitive based on past studies I have seen..... If you are talking about school shooters/child abusers/rapists you are absolutely right that excess serotonin/brain damage is playing a role, but I think those people are actually very emotional in that stress gets to them so much that they lose it. The truly stress immune people who aren't bothered by other people's problems are the healthiest ones with high dopamine/high GABA/low serotonin.

Eric Harris was almost textbook definition of a psychopath, whereas klebold was more of a depressive/submissive type


I recommend the book "heroes--mass murder and suicide" by franco berardi. It goes into a lot of depth on the phenomenon of mass shootings and suicide, and how those are a product of current society. it's available for not that much money on amazon. one of the best books I've read of the past ten years

 

[haidut]

This seems contradictory to me as there are studies that link serotonin to the formation of traumatic memories. In fact, I believe you quoted a study about that. How can serotonin numb them but also be the reason for the formation of traumatic memories?

Point taken, maybe it is the duration of serotonin elevation. Initially, it "helps" to remember trauma in order to improve recognition and future response. But over time, if conditions do not improve it "stiffens" the individual to prevent further trauma, similar to the autistic phenotype as Peat said. The same mechanism seems to be in place with estrogen, cortisol, prolactin and other stress hormones - i.e. beneficial short term and harmful long term effects. Incidentally, one of the primary diagnostic signs of autistic children (high serotonin) is reduced empathy.
Anyways, the picture is not clear yet but the evidence behind elevated serotonin in violent behavior and various crimes is very strong. SSRI's are known to trigger violent behavior as user @Mito pointed out above. And I do agree that there are various levels of psychopaths - the highly functional ones are especially dangerous as they tend to draw a large fanatical herd with them and thus have bigger impact on society.

 

[LUH 3417]

Dozens of subsequent papers reinforce these conclusions. For example, HIV patients with strong social support have lower levels of the virusthan those without. Women have better chances of surviving colorectal cancer if they have strong connections. Young children who are socially isolated appear more likely to suffer from coronary heart disease and type 2 diabetes in adulthood. Most remarkably, older patients with either one or two chronic diseases do not have higher death rates than those who are not suffering from chronic disease – as long as they have high levels of social support.

The town that’s found a potent cure for illness – community | George Monbiot