SSRI drugs cause depression/anxiety, blocking serotonin rapidly reverses the latter

haidut

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It is hard to come up with a more controversial statement in psychiatry than to say that the blockbuster "antidepressant" drugs not only actually cause depression - the very condition they are supposed to treat- but also anxiety (a separate mental disorder, according to DSM V) on top of that. The combination of (uni/bi)-polar depression and the anxiety disorders spectrum (e.g. GAD) is responsible for the vast majority of mental health diagnoses, so the implications of the study below are huge. Namely, that serotonin (5-HT) is the cause of most "mental" disorders (likely through its role as a negative metabolic regulator); that the most popular drugs (SSRI) prescribed to patients with such disorders not only do not treat said disorders, but actually exacerbate them or (gasp!) even cause them de-novo; that cheap, real treatments are widely available in the form of over-the-counter (OTC) drugs such as Benadryl (diphenhydramine, a 5-HT antagonist when used in doses below 150mg daily), or dietary restriction of the 5-HT precursor tryptophan (i.e. consuming more gelatin as part of the daily protein intake), or inhibiting tryptophan absorption from the digestive tract with aspirin, gelatin or branched-chain amino acids (BCAA).
I know that @Blossom and possibly @Rinse & rePeat had bad experience with SSRI drugs, so a question for them - did you feel that SSRI drugs made you more depressed, or "just" numb and emotionless?

Pharmacological blockade of 5-HT7 receptors as a putative fast acting antidepressant strategy - PubMed

"...When compared with vehicle-treated animals, acute administration of fluoxetine induced a 80% decrease in the number of visits to the center of the open-field apparatus (p<0.01, PLSD Fisher's test), whereas no significant change was observed after acute administration with SB-269970. Interestingly, administration of SB-269970 after fluoxetine counteracted the decrease of the number of visits to the center induced by fluoxetine (p<0.05, PLSD Fisher's test). These results demonstrated that fluoxetine, acutely administered, induced an anxiogenic-like effect that was prevented by the 5-HT7 receptor antagonist SB-269970."

"...As reported in previous studies, the SSRI fluoxetine (20 mg/kg, s.c.) potentiated the head-twitch behavior evoked by 5-HTP (>10 fold; p<0.001, PLSD Fisher's test). Interestingly, SB-269970 completely blocked the enhancement of HTR following fluoxetine administration (p<0.001, PLSD Fisher's test). These results therefore indicate that 5-HT7 receptor blockade did not facilitate the motoric component of the 5-HT syndrome but prevented the potentiating effect of fluoxetine."

"...These results showed an increase in anxiety-like behavior by postnatal exposure to the SSRI fluoxetine, but not with the 5-HT7 receptor agonist or the antagonist. In the FST, a significant effect of treatment was observed (F3,34=5.35; p<0.01, one-way ANOVA). The immobility duration was significantly enhanced by 32% in fluoxetine-exposed rats (p<0.05, PLSD Fisher's test) during the neonatal period, but not in AS19- or SB-269970-exposed animals (Figure 7b). Taken together, these results showed that neonatal exposure to the SSRI fluoxetine, but not to AS19 or SB-269970, produced anxiety- and depression-like behaviors in early adulthood of the rats."

"...It has also been reported that both pharmacological inhibition and genetic inactivation of 5-HT7 receptors induce antidepressant-like behavior in the mouse tail suspension test (Hedlund et al, 2005; Bonaventure et al, 2007; Sarkisyan et al, 2010), as well as an antianxiety effect in the Vogel drinking test in rats, the elevated plus maze in rats, and in the four-plate test in mice (Wesolowska et al, 2006). Interestingly, a dose of 2 mg/kg of SB-269970 had no detectable effect in the present study by itself, suggesting a lack of modification of 5-HT release as previously shown (Bonaventure et al, 2007), it counteracted the anxiogenic-like effect of acute administration of fluoxetine in the illuminated open field (Figure 1). Previous reports have shown that the SSRIs fluoxetine and citalopram display anxiogenic behaviors via the activation of 5-HT2C receptors as their effects were prevented by a 5-HT2C antagonist (Burghardt et al, 2007; Dekeyne et al, 2000; Greenwood et al, 2008). Hence, it can be suggested that an enhanced activation of 5-HT2C, and also of 5-HT7, receptors might be a mechanism for the anxiogenic effects of SSRIs observed initially during treatment, based on the present results. These findings are of particular interest as several atypical antipsychotics, such as amisulpride and aripiprazole, which are potent 5-HT7 antagonist, are used in the treatment of mood disorders (Smeraldi, 1998; Montgomery, 2002; Na et al, 2008: Berman et al, 2009). Additionally, Abbas et al (2009) demonstrated that, in contrast to their wild-type littermates, 5-HT7 receptor knock-out mice did not respond to amisulpride in the FST and the tail suspension test. This indicates that 5-HT7 receptor antagonism may underly, at least in part, the antidepressant-like actions of antipsychotics such as amisulpride and aripiprazole (Abbas et al, 2009; Sarkisyan et al, 2010). Taken together, these data suggest that 5-HT7 receptor antagonists are of potential interest for the treatment of both depression and anxiety."

"...Overall, the multiple experimental approaches used herein provided important support for the hypothesis that 5-HT7 receptor antagonists may act as antidepressant (AD) agents with a rapid onset of action. Thus far, only one 5-HT7 receptor antagonist has been assessed in a clinical trial for moderate to severe depression (JNJ-18038683; Johnson and Johnson Pharmaceutical Research and Development). It is hoped that the present results will further stimulate the development of selective 5-HT7 receptor antagonists as a novel and potentially improved class of ADs."
 
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Morten

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It is hard to come up with a more controversial statement in psychiatry than to say that the blockbuster "antidepressant" drugs not only actually cause depression - the very condition they are supposed to treat- but also anxiety (a separate mental disorder, according to DSM V) on top of that. The combination of (uni/bi)-polar depression and the anxiety disorders spectrum (e.g. GAD) is responsible for the vast majority of mental health diagnoses, so the implications of the study below are huge. Namely, that serotonin (5-HT) is the cause of most "mental" disorders (likely through its role as a negative metabolic regulator); that the most popular drugs (SSRI) prescribed to patients with such disorders not only do not treat said disorders, but actually exacerbate them or (gasp!) even cause them de-novo; that cheap, real treatments are widely available in the form of over-the-counter (OTC) drugs such as Benadryl (diphenhydramine, a 5-HT antagonist when used in doses below 150mg daily), or dietary restriction of the 5-HT precursor tryptophan (i.e. consuming more gelatin as part of the daily protein intake), or inhibiting tryptophan absorption from the digestive tract with aspirin, gelatin or branched-chain amino acids (BCAA).
I know that @Blossom and possibly @Rinse & rePeat had bad experience with SSRI drugs, so a question for them - did you feel that SSRI drugs made you more depressed, or "just" numb and emotionless?

Pharmacological blockade of 5-HT7 receptors as a putative fast acting antidepressant strategy - PubMed

"...When compared with vehicle-treated animals, acute administration of fluoxetine induced a 80% decrease in the number of visits to the center of the open-field apparatus (p<0.01, PLSD Fisher's test), whereas no significant change was observed after acute administration with SB-269970. Interestingly, administration of SB-269970 after fluoxetine counteracted the decrease of the number of visits to the center induced by fluoxetine (p<0.05, PLSD Fisher's test). These results demonstrated that fluoxetine, acutely administered, induced an anxiogenic-like effect that was prevented by the 5-HT7 receptor antagonist SB-269970."

"...As reported in previous studies, the SSRI fluoxetine (20 mg/kg, s.c.) potentiated the head-twitch behavior evoked by 5-HTP (>10 fold; p<0.001, PLSD Fisher's test). Interestingly, SB-269970 completely blocked the enhancement of HTR following fluoxetine administration (p<0.001, PLSD Fisher's test). These results therefore indicate that 5-HT7 receptor blockade did not facilitate the motoric component of the 5-HT syndrome but prevented the potentiating effect of fluoxetine."

"...These results showed an increase in anxiety-like behavior by postnatal exposure to the SSRI fluoxetine, but not with the 5-HT7 receptor agonist or the antagonist. In the FST, a significant effect of treatment was observed (F3,34=5.35; p<0.01, one-way ANOVA). The immobility duration was significantly enhanced by 32% in fluoxetine-exposed rats (p<0.05, PLSD Fisher's test) during the neonatal period, but not in AS19- or SB-269970-exposed animals (Figure 7b). Taken together, these results showed that neonatal exposure to the SSRI fluoxetine, but not to AS19 or SB-269970, produced anxiety- and depression-like behaviors in early adulthood of the rats."

"...It has also been reported that both pharmacological inhibition and genetic inactivation of 5-HT7 receptors induce antidepressant-like behavior in the mouse tail suspension test (Hedlund et al, 2005; Bonaventure et al, 2007; Sarkisyan et al, 2010), as well as an antianxiety effect in the Vogel drinking test in rats, the elevated plus maze in rats, and in the four-plate test in mice (Wesolowska et al, 2006). Interestingly, a dose of 2 mg/kg of SB-269970 had no detectable effect in the present study by itself, suggesting a lack of modification of 5-HT release as previously shown (Bonaventure et al, 2007), it counteracted the anxiogenic-like effect of acute administration of fluoxetine in the illuminated open field (Figure 1). Previous reports have shown that the SSRIs fluoxetine and citalopram display anxiogenic behaviors via the activation of 5-HT2C receptors as their effects were prevented by a 5-HT2C antagonist (Burghardt et al, 2007; Dekeyne et al, 2000; Greenwood et al, 2008). Hence, it can be suggested that an enhanced activation of 5-HT2C, and also of 5-HT7, receptors might be a mechanism for the anxiogenic effects of SSRIs observed initially during treatment, based on the present results. These findings are of particular interest as several atypical antipsychotics, such as amisulpride and aripiprazole, which are potent 5-HT7 antagonist, are used in the treatment of mood disorders (Smeraldi, 1998; Montgomery, 2002; Na et al, 2008: Berman et al, 2009). Additionally, Abbas et al (2009) demonstrated that, in contrast to their wild-type littermates, 5-HT7 receptor knock-out mice did not respond to amisulpride in the FST and the tail suspension test. This indicates that 5-HT7 receptor antagonism may underly, at least in part, the antidepressant-like actions of antipsychotics such as amisulpride and aripiprazole (Abbas et al, 2009; Sarkisyan et al, 2010). Taken together, these data suggest that 5-HT7 receptor antagonists are of potential interest for the treatment of both depression and anxiety."

"...Overall, the multiple experimental approaches used herein provided important support for the hypothesis that 5-HT7 receptor antagonists may act as antidepressant (AD) agents with a rapid onset of action. Thus far, only one 5-HT7 receptor antagonist has been assessed in a clinical trial for moderate to severe depression (JNJ-18038683; Johnson and Johnson Pharmaceutical Research and Development). It is hoped that the present results will further stimulate the development of selective 5-HT7 receptor antagonists as a novel and potentially improved class of ADs."
I take 1/2 a pill Benadryl from the company Mc neil, with 8 mg acrivastin. So not the type with diphenhydramine contained in it. Proberly not possible to get the latter type in the EU where I live....
 

lvysaur

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When the serotonin is "blocked", does it reduce blood levels?
 
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haidut

haidut

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I take 1/2 a pill Benadryl from the company Mc neil, with 8 mg acrivastin. So not the type with diphenhydramine contained in it. Proberly not possible to get the latter type in the EU where I live....

In the EU you should be able to get cyproheptadine, which may be a better option than diphenhydramine as it does not become serotonergic in higher doses. It is often sold under the brand names Periactin or Peritol in Europe.
 

Morten

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In the EU you should be able to get cyproheptadine, which may be a better option than diphenhydramine as it does not become serotonergic in higher doses. It is often sold under the brand names Periactin or Peritol in Europe.
Super, thanks haidut.
 
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haidut

haidut

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When the serotonin is "blocked", does it reduce blood levels?

Not always, it depends on the receptor, but blocking the receptor stops the "effect" of serotonin, at least partially. Some 5-HT receptors such as the 5-HT1 ones are so-called autoreceptors, so blocking them increases serotonin release, but the blockade is still beneficial and 5-HT1 blockers have shown potent and rapid antidepressant effects in all studies so far, similar to the 5-HT7 blocker discussed above. Ideally, you'd want a non-selective serotonin blocker such as cyproheptadine or metergoline or a combination of a non-selective serotonin blocker and a dopamine agonist (since dopamine inhibits serotonin synthesis), or simply avoidance of dietary tryptophan and stress (muscles contain significant amounts of tryptophan, which becomes bioavailable when cortisol is high).
 

Morten

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Not always, it depends on the receptor, but blocking the receptor stops the "effect" of serotonin, at least partially. Some 5-HT receptors such as the 5-HT1 ones are so-called autoreceptors, so blocking them increases serotonin release, but the blockade is still beneficial and 5-HT1 blockers have shown potent and rapid antidepressant effects in all studies so far, similar to the 5-HT7 blocker discussed above. Ideally, you'd want a non-selective serotonin blocker such as cyproheptadine or metergoline or a combination of a non-selective serotonin blocker and a dopamine agonist (since dopamine inhibits serotonin synthesis), or simply avoidance of dietary tryptophan and stress (muscles contain significant amounts of tryptophan, which becomes bioavailable when cortisol is high).
Interesting. Regarding the periactin(with cyproheptadine) you mentioned, Google says:
"Cyproheptadine is an appetite stimulant and antihistamine medicine
. It has additional antiserotonergic, anticholinergic, and local anesthetic properties."
But as you write, it is also a antidepressent drug.
Is antihistamine drugs being used in treatments for depression?
If not, why not? To Cheap? Industri ignorence?
 
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haidut

haidut

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Interesting. Regarding the periactin(with cyproheptadine) you mentioned, Google says:
"Cyproheptadine is an appetite stimulant and antihistamine medicine
. It has additional antiserotonergic, anticholinergic, and local anesthetic properties."
But as you write, it is also a antidepressent drug.
Is antihistamine drugs being used in treatments for depression?
If not, why not? To Cheap? Industri ignorence?

It is the anti-serotonin effect responsible for treating depression. Not all antihistamines block serotonin. Cyproheptadine is one of those that are both antihistamine and anti-serotonin. Drugs that block only histamine don't have a lot of evidence of treating depression, but at the very least they would reduce systemic inflammation and that may indirectly help with depression too.
 

Morten

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It is the anti-serotonin effect responsible for treating depression. Not all antihistamines block serotonin. Cyproheptadine is one of those that are both antihistamine and anti-serotonin. Drugs that block only histamine don't have a lot of evidence of treating depression, but at the very least they would reduce systemic inflammation and that may indirectly help with depression too.
🌞🌞
 

Tre

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It is hard to come up with a more controversial statement in psychiatry than to say that the blockbuster "antidepressant" drugs not only actually cause depression - the very condition they are supposed to treat- but also anxiety (a separate mental disorder, according to DSM V) on top of that. The combination of (uni/bi)-polar depression and the anxiety disorders spectrum (e.g. GAD) is responsible for the vast majority of mental health diagnoses, so the implications of the study below are huge. Namely, that serotonin (5-HT) is the cause of most "mental" disorders (likely through its role as a negative metabolic regulator); that the most popular drugs (SSRI) prescribed to patients with such disorders not only do not treat said disorders, but actually exacerbate them or (gasp!) even cause them de-novo; that cheap, real treatments are widely available in the form of over-the-counter (OTC) drugs such as Benadryl (diphenhydramine, a 5-HT antagonist when used in doses below 150mg daily), or dietary restriction of the 5-HT precursor tryptophan (i.e. consuming more gelatin as part of the daily protein intake), or inhibiting tryptophan absorption from the digestive tract with aspirin, gelatin or branched-chain amino acids (BCAA).
I know that @Blossom and possibly @Rinse & rePeat had bad experience with SSRI drugs, so a question for them - did you feel that SSRI drugs made you more depressed, or "just" numb and emotionless?

Pharmacological blockade of 5-HT7 receptors as a putative fast acting antidepressant strategy - PubMed

"...When compared with vehicle-treated animals, acute administration of fluoxetine induced a 80% decrease in the number of visits to the center of the open-field apparatus (p<0.01, PLSD Fisher's test), whereas no significant change was observed after acute administration with SB-269970. Interestingly, administration of SB-269970 after fluoxetine counteracted the decrease of the number of visits to the center induced by fluoxetine (p<0.05, PLSD Fisher's test). These results demonstrated that fluoxetine, acutely administered, induced an anxiogenic-like effect that was prevented by the 5-HT7 receptor antagonist SB-269970."

"...As reported in previous studies, the SSRI fluoxetine (20 mg/kg, s.c.) potentiated the head-twitch behavior evoked by 5-HTP (>10 fold; p<0.001, PLSD Fisher's test). Interestingly, SB-269970 completely blocked the enhancement of HTR following fluoxetine administration (p<0.001, PLSD Fisher's test). These results therefore indicate that 5-HT7 receptor blockade did not facilitate the motoric component of the 5-HT syndrome but prevented the potentiating effect of fluoxetine."

"...These results showed an increase in anxiety-like behavior by postnatal exposure to the SSRI fluoxetine, but not with the 5-HT7 receptor agonist or the antagonist. In the FST, a significant effect of treatment was observed (F3,34=5.35; p<0.01, one-way ANOVA). The immobility duration was significantly enhanced by 32% in fluoxetine-exposed rats (p<0.05, PLSD Fisher's test) during the neonatal period, but not in AS19- or SB-269970-exposed animals (Figure 7b). Taken together, these results showed that neonatal exposure to the SSRI fluoxetine, but not to AS19 or SB-269970, produced anxiety- and depression-like behaviors in early adulthood of the rats."

"...It has also been reported that both pharmacological inhibition and genetic inactivation of 5-HT7 receptors induce antidepressant-like behavior in the mouse tail suspension test (Hedlund et al, 2005; Bonaventure et al, 2007; Sarkisyan et al, 2010), as well as an antianxiety effect in the Vogel drinking test in rats, the elevated plus maze in rats, and in the four-plate test in mice (Wesolowska et al, 2006). Interestingly, a dose of 2 mg/kg of SB-269970 had no detectable effect in the present study by itself, suggesting a lack of modification of 5-HT release as previously shown (Bonaventure et al, 2007), it counteracted the anxiogenic-like effect of acute administration of fluoxetine in the illuminated open field (Figure 1). Previous reports have shown that the SSRIs fluoxetine and citalopram display anxiogenic behaviors via the activation of 5-HT2C receptors as their effects were prevented by a 5-HT2C antagonist (Burghardt et al, 2007; Dekeyne et al, 2000; Greenwood et al, 2008). Hence, it can be suggested that an enhanced activation of 5-HT2C, and also of 5-HT7, receptors might be a mechanism for the anxiogenic effects of SSRIs observed initially during treatment, based on the present results. These findings are of particular interest as several atypical antipsychotics, such as amisulpride and aripiprazole, which are potent 5-HT7 antagonist, are used in the treatment of mood disorders (Smeraldi, 1998; Montgomery, 2002; Na et al, 2008: Berman et al, 2009). Additionally, Abbas et al (2009) demonstrated that, in contrast to their wild-type littermates, 5-HT7 receptor knock-out mice did not respond to amisulpride in the FST and the tail suspension test. This indicates that 5-HT7 receptor antagonism may underly, at least in part, the antidepressant-like actions of antipsychotics such as amisulpride and aripiprazole (Abbas et al, 2009; Sarkisyan et al, 2010). Taken together, these data suggest that 5-HT7 receptor antagonists are of potential interest for the treatment of both depression and anxiety."

"...Overall, the multiple experimental approaches used herein provided important support for the hypothesis that 5-HT7 receptor antagonists may act as antidepressant (AD) agents with a rapid onset of action. Thus far, only one 5-HT7 receptor antagonist has been assessed in a clinical trial for moderate to severe depression (JNJ-18038683; Johnson and Johnson Pharmaceutical Research and Development). It is hoped that the present results will further stimulate the development of selective 5-HT7 receptor antagonists as a novel and potentially improved class of ADs."
I know a data point (DP) of one who has briefly taken anti-depressants (AD) over the years such as Zoloft, escitalopram, Effexor, Wellbutrin, prozac, and vortioxetine. Some taken for just a few days and stopped bc of obvious lack of efficacy or scarey side effects. Others taken for longer. DP reports vortioxetine was the only one that lifted some depression. DP said, “I remember feeling good like this when I was younger” after starting on Vortioxetine. Also, this AD did not cause fuzzy mind or sleep issues. But, DP had to cease taking it due to back and hip pain as well as blurred vision while taking V. Once stopped side effect issues resolved, once restarted issues returned. Stopped. Really too bad. Just passing along this info about one person. I think ? V is: 5-HT1A Agonist, 5-HT1B part Agonist and a 5-HT1D, 5-HT3, 5-HT7———Antagonist.
 
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