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Antidepressants (SSRI) Make Females Unattractive, Provoke Male Aggression

Discussion in 'Scientific Studies' started by haidut, Jan 3, 2019.

  1. haidut

    haidut Member

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    ...or at least it does so in birds.
    The news about the pure evil that SSRI drugs are just keep on coming. There is already evidence that they pretty much zombify the person taking them and deprive that person of any semblance of humanity.
    SSRI Drugs Linked To At Least 28 Murders, Including Mass Shootings In USA
    SSRI Drugs Impair Judgment, Wisdom, Understanding, Love And Empathy
    SSRI Make Organisms Demented, Violent & Homicidal, Even At Low Doses
    The Dark Side Of Serotonin Exposed By Haidut In 70 Studies

    However, as bad as it is, all the evidence so far was in regards to a person taking SSRI. Well, not any more. The study below shows that males interacting with females exposed to low-dose SSRI lose all sexual/romantic interest in them and instead become highly aggressive towards the females. Again, this effect was seen from low-doses SSRI exposure that mimics human exposure to SSRI levels found in tap water or commercially prepared foods. Imagine how much worse the effects would be in females (or any person really) taking SSRI drugs at pharmacological doses as "treatment" for depression!! I wonder how many relationships, marriages, families, etc have been absolutely ruined by this serotonergic poison....
    While the study did not propose a mechanism of action for this "bystander" effect, I suspect it is related to increasing the stress phenotype of the birds exposed to SSRI. As we now know stress is actually contagious and can be transmitted via odor, so the male birds are probably reacting to that odor of "stress".
    PTSD / Trauma Is Contagious, Can Be Transmitted Via Odor/pheromones
    There are other studies showing that bullied people invariably have elevated stress hormones long before any bullying actually commenced, and can provoke aggression even from unknown, non-hostile individuals.

    I am finding it hard to even imagine worse drug outcome than what we see with SSRI. Not only do they make a person absolutely hate the world around them, but it makes the world hate them in return as well.
    @aguilaroja

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0045653518313328
    Male birds sing less to females on antidepressants

    "...The researchers studied the birds at sewage works where they flock to feed all year round. The worms, maggots and flies at sewage treatment plants have been found to contain many different pharmaceuticals, including Prozac. The study showed that dilute concentrations of Prozac similar to those measured at sewage works appeared to make female starlings less attractive to the opposite sex...In 2016, there were 64.7 million antidepressant items prescribed in the UK. Some of these compounds are stable in the environment and break down slowly once they’ve passed through our bodies and into sewage-treatment systems. Dr Kathryn Arnold and Sophia Whitlock, from the Environment Department at the University of York, have been studying the effects of environmental levels of fluoxetine (commonly known as Prozac) on starlings for a number of years. They have discovered changes in the behaviour of these starlings that could put birds at risk in the wild. Sophia Whitlock, researcher on the project, said: “Singing is a key part of courtship for birds, used by males to court favoured females and used by females to choose the highest quality male to father their chicks. Males sang more than twice as often and as long to untreated females compared to females that had been receiving low doses of Prozac.” Funded by the Natural Environment Research Council (NERC), the study also found increased male aggression towards females receiving the dilute dose of Prozac. Instead of courting them, males were more likely to chase, peck or claw the female starlings on Prozac."
     
  2. Makrosky

    Makrosky Member

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    Man, this is VERY interesting but the title of the thread is totally misleading IMHO. It should include "birds" on it. Let's be rigurous for the benefit and credibility of the forum.
     
  3. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    Well, I hear you point but most biochemists do not study birds and rodents and other species out of pure interests in those species. Those studies are typically done with the implicit statement that the same would happen in humans. In fact, many of those studies explicitly raise the alarm and of course say more research is needed but still state the findings are very worrying and likely applicable to humans as well.
    If you know of a difference in humans that would prevent from this result being replicated then please let me know and I will include this disclaimer. I already changed the beginning of the thread to say this was a study in birds, but considering the bad effects of SSRI have so far been seen in crabs, rodent, reptiles, apes, etc I would say the burden of proof should be on Big Pharma to show that the same does NOT happen in humans. Actually, we have over 70 different posts about the bad effects of serotonin/SSRI on the forum and many of them are in humans. So, despite all this evidence, you still think all the dangers of SSRI apply to non-human animals only?
    The Dark Side Of Serotonin Exposed By Haidut In 70 Studies
     
  4. Makrosky

    Makrosky Member

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    It's ok haidut. I had to say it. Couldn't resist. I understand your points anyway but I am really sure none of the scientists of that study would neither privately or publicly state that this can be easily extrapolated to humans.
     
  5. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    They actually discuss quite openly in the study that the effects of fluoxetine on suppressing sexual behavior is well-known and confirmed across many species, including higher mammals.
    "...In mammals, sexual dysfunction can occur following even an acute or subchronic dose (Sarkar et al., 2008; Guptarak et al., 2010), indicating a need to assess the effects of shorter exposures in passerines. In general, further work in this area should now focus on elucidating the mechanism, in terms of alterations to neurotransmission in fluoxetine-exposed females, that results in reduced attractiveness. Such work should again collect behavioural courtship data, but should also investigate whether key mode of action related targets, such as serotonin transporter (SERT) and relevant serotonin receptors (e.g. 5-HT1A), are differentially expressed in fluoxetine-treated compared to control female brain tissue during the breeding season. Finally, generating a dose-response curve, ranging from low environmental concentrations through to high human dose equivalent concentrations, could be beneficial in furthering the current level of understanding of the effects of fluoxetine on behaviour and other ecologically relevant traits, and the implications of exposure in the environment. However, determining traditional threshold concentrations at which effects become apparent could be challenging for two reasons. Firstly, fluoxetine has already been shown to exhibit a non-monotonic dose-response relationship at environmental concentrations in other vertebrates (Martin et al., 2017; Saaristo et al., 2017). Secondly, a trait such as ‘courtship’ consists of different behaviours with different underlying mechanisms and responses are likely to be context dependent. Thus, the utility of a dose response curve in defining ‘safe’ environmental concentrations is likely to be limited for contaminants with sublethal effects."

    "...The consequences of such exposure in wild birds are also poorly understood. The evolutionarily ancient serotonergic system, including the primary target of fluoxetine (SERT), is well-conserved across vertebrates (Lillesaar, 2011). In line with the read-across hypothesis (Huggett et al., 2003), we might predict effects similar to those observed in humans in birds and mammals, following exposure to fluoxetine. Sexual dysfunction is a common side effect of fluoxetine in humans, causing delayed ejaculation in men, anorgasmia in women and decreased libido in both sexes at therapeutic dosages (typically 20e60 mg day1 ) (Higgins et al., 2010), with similar effects in rodents (after 10 mg kg1 injected daily) (Matuszczyk et al., 1998; Uphouse et al., 2006; Sarkar et al., 2008). Fluoxetine has also been shown to increase circulating testosterone in depressed female human patients at therapeutic dosages (Kumsar et al., 2014)."

    "...Nevertheless, we still feel our results are important because although our weight-corrected dose for each starling was only around 10% of the human therapeutic daily dose, we still found evidence that fluoxetine treatment altered avian courtship. Interestingly, we found no physiological evidence of endocrine disruption as a mechanism for behavioural changes. This builds on evidence from other studies showing that environmental concentrations of fluoxetine can alter avian behaviour (Bean et al., 2014), as well as reproductive and other behaviours in aquatic vertebrates (Bertram et al., 2018; Weinberger and Klaper, 2014)."

    So, they actually seem to imply (second quote) that this effect has already been seen in humans and they expect it to manifest in birds as well.
     
  6. Momado965

    Momado965 Member

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    Lol I always found women who are bitchy are in need of a big fat slap. I feel normal now.
     
  7. Makrosky

    Makrosky Member

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    Ok, very good points.
    The context in this case is a HUGE thing to keep in mind since human context is incredibly much more complex. Birds or higher mammals and human context really are eons of distance. For instance : a woman depressed, lethargic, with dark circles below eyes, cynical, zombifief by depression it is much more unattractive than a woman who is on SSRIs and depression free (for the % of people which SSRis work, which is a fact). In that context, she could be much more likely to get sexually engaged and approached by males than the non SSRI one.

    So in this case the context of her having social life, joy, energy to do things, etc because of Prozac would in great part offset the other biochemical factors that could make them less attractive.

    Just an example
     
  8. lvysaur

    lvysaur Member

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    I guess this explains the phenomenon of having a "punchable face"
     
  9. michael94

    michael94 Member

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    sometimes women are bitchy because they dont give into entropy or go with the flow

    Attractiveness is important, but what are you going to do with it ?
     
  10. Momado965

    Momado965 Member

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    Lol the many solutions that come to mind.
     
  11. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    I updated my original comment with a second quote from the study. They actually seem to imply these effects of fluoxetine are well known in humans and other mammals so they expected them to transfer to birds as well. Their only surprise was that it occurred at doses much lower than what humans take as medication.
     
  12. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    Yep, and the "punchable" phenotype correlates very well with high serotonin - i.e. overly logical, argumentative, highly analytical, always capable of criticism but not constrictive one, etc. Such people often construct a social image of themselves of being a highly rational (read: annoying), but misunderstood and socially awkward "genius" that somehow deserves special attention and treatment from others.
     
  13. pinacolada

    pinacolada Member

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    Society doesn’t go with my flow EITHEr. When they make schedules based on my ovulation calendar then I can go with the flow no problem-0
     
  14. pinacolada

    pinacolada Member

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    Until then it’s just me and this bottle of progest e
     
  15. pimpnamedraypeat

    pimpnamedraypeat Member

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    Woah getting a little personal here.

    You're cutting deep haidut!
     
  16. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    Why personal? :): I did not mean anybody in particular. There are legitimate socially awkward geniuses for sure. However, the ones that keep getting in your face telling you they are so smart are usually the ones to be wary of. I am sure you have run into these people before and know the difference between them and the truly shy, introvert geniuses.
     
  17. lvysaur

    lvysaur Member

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    I remember something vague about avian blood circulation, or airways or something leading to more efficient absorption of toxins. Seems relevant here.

    I think this can be summed up succinctly as "being emotionally invested in the truth"

    People who need a statement to be absolutely solid, either because it makes them feel good to be right, or because they have some identitarian narrative to fulfill, or even because ambiguity causes them anxiety, probably share these things IMO.

    People who are mentally flexible care less about such things, in my experience. And they're usually a lot more humble and down-to-earth.
     
  18. aguilaroja

    aguilaroja Member

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    It could be a full time job just track adverse biological effect reports, even with no commercial incentive for study. Many reports are impaired social/situational function have emerged recently. And as @haidut has noted, disturbances by one drug, like Prozac, in the SSRI category, probably reflects potential harm by the entire category. I aim to separately post soon about recent "transgenerational" adverse effects.

    Maternal exposure to fluoxetine during gestation and lactation induces long lasting changes in the DNA methylation profile of offspring's brain and... - PubMed - NCBI
    "early exposure to FLX [fluoxetine, i.e. Prozac] was also associated with a reduction in the social interaction time (p = 0.0084) and to a decreased in the plasma corticosterone level when animals were submitted to the restraint stress (p < 0.0001)."

    Fluoxetine treatment of prepubertal male rats uniformly diminishes sex hormone levels and, in a subpopulation of animals, negatively affects sperm ... - PubMed - NCBI
    Flx [fluoxetine, i.e. Prozac] administered to juvenile rats disrupts the hypothalamic-hypophyseal-testicular axis and its effects on sperm quality are not homogeneous in adults. In contrast, Flx altered concentrations of gonadotrophins and sexual steroids in all treated rats. These results suggest caution should be exercised in the prescription of Flx to prepubertal males.

    Effects of waterborne exposure to the antidepressant fluoxetine on swimming, shoaling and anxiety behaviours of the mosquitofish Gambusia holbrooki. - PubMed - NCBI
    "FLX [fluoxetine, i.e. Prozac] impaired swimming behaviour at high concentrations (25 μg/L and 50 μg/L) but not at low concentrations close to environmental levels (1 μg/L and 5 μg/L). When swimming activity was assessed 5 min after transfer of the focal fish to the testing tank, 50 μg/L FLX was the only concentration showing significant effects. However, when the same trials were performed 24 h later, 25 μg/L FLX turned out to be an effect concentration in addition to 50 μg/L. Interestingly, these concentrations would elicit fish plasma concentrations comprised within the range of human therapeutic doses."
     
  19. Hans

    Hans Member

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    Very interesting. This is probably even true for someone that isn't on SSRI. I think even the normal cycles of the month for a woman (if she is estrogen dominant) can induce an significant increase in serotonin and cause such behaviour.
     
  20. Dobbler

    Dobbler Member

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    Bullying is very very rarely the guys fault who gets bullied. The bully on the other hand is ****88 up in some ways. The bully is probably more serotonin dominant than the one who gets bullied. No-one with good mental and hormonal state bullies because it achieves nothing.

    Overall, i think this study(ies) hold true largely with humans aswell, even though this is very primitive stuff.
     
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