Afternoon Exhaustion

[Katty]

I agree, I think so many of us are just so programmed to eat little, especially the early part of the day, from years of weight-loss schemes, intermittent fasting and so forth. It's so ingrained in us by now we don't even realize we are doing it and that it is probably a big part -or at least one part, of our physical and mental/emotional problems. We aren't giving ourselves the energy to do much more than barely function, let along keep blood sugar up, think clearly, be active, etc. I was stuck in that rut until this week.

I know you didn't really direct the post at me, but for me personally I think today was just somewhat of an outlier due to hormones. I'm sure I'm ovulating. And my appetite has been screwed up all day. Plus I've been so sleepy this evening I just wanted to nap and I never do that. It's all kind of blah. I barely did anything on my to-do list and couldn't muster the ambition to work out or take a walk. I think it's more than the lesser calories I had earlier, more about hormones at this point. I just hope to start fresh tomorrow. But at any rate, I had those calories I listed earlier in day, and currently at 9 p.m. I'm at 2,300 and not done for the day. I'm usually well content around 2000, sometimes less, so I'll chalk this up to hormones as I mentioned.

I'm still playing around with the macro ratios, but I seem to want a lot more fat than I thought I would. I usually struggle to get in all the protein too, but I'm getting better at it. I find trying to get a lot in first thing in the morning helps a lot.

I guess if my little theories in my head are right, this setback of energy and bloat should be temporary and I should pull back out of it by tomorrow or Sun at the latest.

I can't seem to lose weight, but at least I've stopped the constant gain now - for over a month I've maintained so that's good at least.

I'm rambling now but I do think you are right in that many of us need to eat more for energy.

Totally agree with the bolded words above. All my years of crazy restriction make it hard for me to wrap my head around preparing more food and making myself eat more at work.

For me, a big part of the problem is lack of motivation to prepare more food. I could eat more, but there's often nothing available that is Peat friendly. If I handled dairy better, I would pound it more often. But I have to limit it. Same with gelatin. So I pack food, but it's often not enough, and there are no quick acceptable snacks around when I'm at work.
I'm also sick of cooking and prepping food. If I had someone who would cook the food and put it in front of me when it was time to eat, I would be all set.
I also can't seem to eat a lot of the same food in one day. So I can eat one banana, but if I increase it to 2, it starts to come up on me. I can do about 3/4 cups of yogurt, but any more than that, and my body says stop. So then I have to search out for something else. I also can't eat that much food at any one time... occasionally she I'm really hungry I can, but if I wait too long to eat, the adrenaline kicks in and my appetite decreases so I can't eat as much, and then 1/2-1 hr later I have to try eating again to make up for it. All these issues make it hard for me to eat enough. I started to do a bit more dairy to increase my calories, but then my acne goes crazy.
Sorry, this kind of turned into a testimonial and I'm not exactly addressing the main post. Trying to figure out if others have problems with getting calories in.

 

[tara]

Hi all,
Good to read your experiences and thoughts on this.

Yes, I've struggled a lot with preparing and carrying enough food to last me when I'm out, at work etc. I used to routinely underestimate what I needed. I never go anywhere without carrying food - since years before figuring out more about what I need. These days, I have an insulated bag I take with me in the car whenever I go out that usually has a bottle of spiked OJ, a decent sized bar of chocolate, and dried fruit - dates, dried apricots, etc. Not because chocolate and dried fruit are optimal foods, but because they are better than insufficient food, and they don't have to be prepared every day, and they don't go off. Sometimes I carry OJ jellies and/or home made biscuits, too, but they take more prep. This is snacks on top of taking a solid protein lunch with me to heat at work, and milk+ sugar + decaf.

I'd really like to figure out a suitable low prep/long storage high salt snack to carry. As it is, I have to guess in the morning how much salt to put in my OJ, and that can turn out to sometimes be too little or too much - would be good to be able to regulate salt intake according to how I feel as I go. I suppose I could just have a jar of salt in my bag, but I'd much rather have a tasty snack.

I'm tallish, weigh about 80kg at the moment, probably close to the top end of the thin-privilege range (ie 'healthy' BMI, unhealthy as I actually am). My current targets are something like 80-120g protein, 300-400 carbs, 50-100 fat, 2500-3000 cals. But I don't properly track where I get to daily with these targets. I'm not explicitly trying to keep my calories down. One of my current policies is that hunger is to be listened to, so if I felt like eating more I don't intend to hold back. But I have the barely conscious pressures to eat less running too, as well as sometimes finding myself hungry with nothing suitable around to eat, or in social situations where it doesn't seem acceptable to eat all the time, or I'm in the middle of something and don't want to interrupt it to go get food.

I've gained a few kilos in the past few months, but not fighting it at the moment - experimenting with seeing if eating more will help solve my issues. Without explicitly trying to lose weight/fat, I've lost weight a couple of times in the last couple of years. When my ribs got visible I figured it was time to make a more concerted effort to eat more. I can't say I'm keen to gain another 20kg in the current fat-phobic society, but if it helps me recover my health it would be worth it. No knowing in advance if this is a key factor that will help me, or if I'll just be heavier with the same poor health, or where the weight gain will stop and/or reverse. From all the stories I've read, there are lots of people with all these outcomes. I can tell that I'm growing muscle along with the fat though, and that's nice. I hope it also means I'm repairing and strengthening other organs too. I think I spend more time feeling awake without feeling stressed, and having at least some energy, if not loads.

I've been finding lately that I often eat more at work, because I've got food there and I can munch while I work, and sometimes I'm bored, than I do on the weekends when I've got lots of other more active things I want to do. This may be a factor in my Sunday/Monday migraines - not the only time I get them, and not the only factor, but maybe an important one.

Anyway, thanks for reading. :)

 

[tara]

More thoughts.
I also get the munchies when I'm pre-menstrual. Reach for lots more carbs than other days.

Just thinking about the effort it takes to get food. Back in hunter gatherer dys, it was vry clear that peopel had to exert themselves to get food, and that tehy had to have enough energy to do that. No good waiting to hunt until you are weak with hunger.

I find it works best for me if I prepare meals ahead of when I'll need them. Another reason the week sometimes weeks better than the weekend. I have to prepare lunch before going to work, either the night beforee or in teh morning. So when i'm hungry for lunch, all I have to do is heat it. But in the weekend i can assume I'll have time to cook, but get too hungry before I get round to starting.

For fast food at home, when I haven't planned, teone of the fastest meals is a potato zapped in the microwave for a few minutes, with butter, and a fried egg or two or whatever is at hand.

 

[Peata]

Well I regained my energy and focus today. Even though I was visiting someone and mostly sedentary all day, sitting in their dim living room, I still didn't get drowsy, which is good.

I may be "lucky" in that I do eat starch without problem as long as I keep to my limits. Beyond that and I get bloated and gassy. If I know I'm going to eat a lot of starch, for example my homemade pizza, I take an ACV drink which helps the digestion but I don't know if that is Peaty. ... So eating the way I do is still with most of the Peat things in mind but I do eat some starch. It makes eating easier, without as much thought or prep. I can throw together a sandwich for example. Having some starch helps me feel fuller. Eating things that normally take a starch but eating them alone such as sandwich filling just makes me think of my low carb days of eating meat and cheese instead of eating it between bread (I use sourdough when I can). I also like pizza and don't want to just eat toppings. I like my homemade crust which I make once every week or two. A small to moderate amount of starch seems to work with my individual chemistry. I also get warmth from it. I make sure to balance my meals protein/carb as best I can.

Since I started eating more food earlier in the day and protein, I love the clarity in my mind and the energy. It's not a nervous energy, just a ready to do whatever kind. I think I have more dopamine. This is the feeling of normalcy I have been trying to get for some time, trying to overcome the brain fog. I was looking for some kind of nootropic thing but I guess adequate calories and protein (balanced with carbs) already does what I need.

 

[SQu]

Quick update on eating to reduce the afternoon crash: raising protein and eating it early in the day to avoid afternoon slump gave me a headache. The pre migraine kind. Held at bay a few days now, but still there. I'm thinking that even matching increased protein with increased sugar is doing this because I'm not metabolizing sugar well yet. Which means it's as if I'm not getting enough.
And I think the protein problem (we can't get enough of the right kind) is because I for example like gelatin, milk, eggs, cheese, but in the amounts needed for 100g protein a day, I have to have so much that I get sick of it. But I think this will improve with time. And patience.

 

[Peata]

Quick update on eating to reduce the afternoon crash: raising protein and eating it early in the day to avoid afternoon slump gave me a headache. The pre migraine kind. Held at bay a few days now, but still there. I'm thinking that even matching increased protein with increased sugar is doing this because I'm not metabolizing sugar well yet. Which means it's as if I'm not getting enough.
And I think the protein problem (we can't get enough of the right kind) is because I for example like gelatin, milk, eggs, cheese, but in the amounts needed for 100g protein a day, I have to have so much that I get sick of it. But I think this will improve with time. And patience.

Hi Sue, sorry to hear about the headaches. I wonder are you using any of the pro-metabolism substances, such as niacinamide, caffeine, aspirin..? If so, it's possible those are contributing. For example, when I was using niacinamide regularly, I had pretty much daily headaches, particularly by afternoon or evening.

 

[Katty]

I find it works best for me if I prepare meals ahead of when I'll need them. Another reason the week sometimes weeks better than the weekend. I have to prepare lunch before going to work, either the night beforee or in teh morning. So when i'm hungry for lunch, all I have to do is heat it. But in the weekend i can assume I'll have time to cook, but get too hungry before I get round to starting.

Me too. I'm pretty good at preparing during the week (though I still need to eat more, but at least I get a pretty decent base). But on the weekends, I feel like it's time to take off, not just from work, but also from all the food prep and micro managing. I end up not eating enough on weekends.

 

[SQu]

HI peata I take them all! They're fundamental to my improvements. Niacinamide initially did not go down well but I take it as a measure of progress that I can use it now. Likewise, that this was just a headache and never developed into a migraine as it once would have. I'm adjusting to more protein earlier in the day and that will also work once my system is used to it. I'm sure of it! Thanks for the input.

 

[Peata]

Having a bumpy luteal phase so far, no surprise though. I notice as long as I keep the calories and protein up I still have energy. But, with hormones out of whack that only does so much for everything else. If I can keep estrogen down/progesterone up, that's what I really need. I hate to go back to mega-dosing Progest E all month. I'm trying some diferent thing with supplements so I'll see how that goes.

It's often still "work" to get in food I need early, along with adequate protein. I just don't always feel like eating, or eating a big amount. It's tempting to find a protein shake I can just add other things (that have calories) to for those times.

Is there a protein powder that is Peaty enough? Maybe I should ask that in another thread.

 

[Peata]

OK, just a little update. Again, as long as I get plenty of calories and protein (by noon preferably) I seem to do great, no afternoon crash or problems.

The only catch is during luteal phase, the calories aren't going to solve every problem such as mood (although it definitely helps to have blood sugar up) but it still works for the issue here - which is energy. I do not tend to get fatigued or sleepy anymore in the afternoon as long as calories are good.

Just a reminder, I've been reminded myself by experience how important it is to get more carbs than protein - otherwise I am in for a bad time of irritability, headache, mild confusion and just feeling bad. I try to get at least double the carbs ratio to protein, but more is better in my case if possible. Err on the side of more carbs as much as I can.

 

[natedawggh]

Sorta looks like you've got this figured out, but I have some ideas if anyone wants to hear them:

When you wake up in the morning your cortisol is the highest it will be at any other time of the day (unless you fast/starve). This can often be confused with feeling fresh and energized...really you're running on fumes and the high of the stress hormones does make you feel good—for the moment—and ironically not hungry.

But delaying breakfast will only increase this level of cortisol (and adrenaline) especially if you have coffee without food (and I mean FOOD, not a little half and half and a spoonful of sugar). If you wait until you are hungry to actually eat, it's too late... that hunger impulse means your blood sugar has dropped, your glycogen stores are low, and your stress hormones are high. Even if you eat a large meal then it will take a while for your glycogen stores to build back, and you'll probably end up binging more food than what you might have otherwise (that's OK to do if you get into this situation! But better to avoid it).

Eating a good amount of protein and carbs first thing on waking will bring down cortisol and adrenaline. Adding coffee to the meal and/or aspirin will help clear out lactic acid buildup from the night (indirectly by increasing metabolism/CO2 production and sugar oxidation). This adequate food and nutrient meal will also fuel your thyroid, allowing all your organs to function correctly, stress free, and keeping you awake and satiated, and yes, many small meals or grazing can keep your metabolism running for the rest of the day so you don't have a crash.

 

[SQu]

So natedawggh do you think the leftover half glass of sugared milk that I have first thing, then the 500ml milk I make into coffee with 2 sugars would do until eggs an hour later? Or am I falling into this trap?
Update : well if only all our issues got fixed so smoothly and so fast! I'm having a lot of success with better afternoons by having more protein ( with sugar) spaced every two hours. I'm not aching or exhausted in the afternoon anymore and this happened overnight! And casein as farmer's cheese is the best. Relaxing. I'm having up to150g protein a day and feel better the more i have, but there's only so much farmers cheese and milk and even sugar one can have so unlikely to go much higher. Gelatin is a great way to get protein but too much leads to stomach ache. I'm hopeful that the improvement in daytime energy will ultimately fix my insomnia and help me lose weight.
Thanks to all.

 

[Filip1993]

@sueq How do you get 150 grams of protein? What are your main protein sources? Thanks.

 

[Peata]

As an update from me, it still works amazingly well to just eat enough food. My energy stays up, clear-thinking etc. I try to eat something almost as soon as I get up and before coffee. I try to get protein in at each feeding, as well as carbs (at least twice as many carbs as protein, more carbs than that is even better to keep blood sugar right).

Now the only time I feel tired in the afternoon is if I go to long without eating/or not eating enough and let myself get really hungry.. and then eat a lot quickly. After that I usually get kind of sleepy or at least tired. But otherwise everything is going well with energy.

Glad it was something so simple and fast to repair.

 

[SQu]

Filip it's milk mostly. Yesterday I got 149g -10 cups of 1% milk, 2 eggs at breakfast and a crustless spinach and feta quiche for dinner which had another 4 eggs, and a tablespoon of gelatin in a hot bedtime drink. Also 250g very low fat cottage cheese for lunch contributed 35grams, or so the label said (seemed a lot ... ). I seldom have less than 8 cups of milk and 2 eggs.Sometimes like yesterday, more. It's not hard because I have 2 or 3 giant 500ml cups of coffee made with pure milk. But most days I don't also have eggs for dinner. So yesterday was easy. But I don't always get there.
I can drink more milk these days, it no longer makes me feel so sloshy. And then if you have lots of milk already, cheese really gets the protein grams up.
Really I think this protein increase has been a breakthrough for me, big thanks to Haidut I think who suggested it. In fact the reason milk doesn't make me so sloshy anymore is the protein increase.

 

[SQu]

I just wanted to quickly update my previous post, so as not to be misleading. I can't sustain the 150g protein. I was able to for a while, but longer than that I find hard to plan that well, want that much, eat most of it before sunset, or not have meat/chicken most days.
But I did succeed in raising my protein consistently to about 120g a day easily. With 1 to 2 litres fat free milk 33 - 66g, 250g skim cottage cheese is 35, 2 eggs is 12, a tablespoon or two of gelatin is another 6 to 12, sometimes 20 or 30 g from meat, chicken, or liver. If you do all of this it's easy, but I don't always want it / get the chance etc. I do crave red meat or chicken fairly regularly and I have it then and feel good, and think it must be doing something for me.
However the improvement from raising protein even to 120g or so has remained. In fact it is really important as its boost to energy has allowed me for the first time to consistently lower fat and starch and overall calories, and start to lose some weight. Consistent energy had to come first because dragging myself around and aching was no longer acceptable and in fact in such a state I put on weight anyway, no matter the calories. In addition my sleep is starting to improve, which I also knew had to happen for weight loss because when I feel really well I lose and when I feel bad I gain. Calories come a distant second to this picture. Thanks again!

 

[Philomath]

Per Haidut's research, I upped my protein from about 60-80 grams of protein to 120-150 and I'm feeling better. I slam Fage Greek yogurt ( strained again through a coffee filter) for the bulk of my protein. One 200 gram tub is almost 50 grams of protein. The rest is milk, gelatin, cheese sticks and liver.
I balance the yogurt with a few tablespoons if honey and blend in a little bit of cocoa puffed rice. There's A few brands out there that cook the rice in coconut oil :)

 

[calliandra]

Have any of you afternoon-crashers ever tried Allithiamine?

For 12 years I've had a weird combination of symptoms: afternoon crashes on about 1/2 of days (feels like my brain "whites out"), post-exertional fatigue (very strong urge to lie down anywhere and sleep), unusual breathlessness when exercising (sometimes, not always), brain fog, and tingling in the extremities. I've had an MRI to rule out MS.

Last year, while researching oxalates and chronic fatigue, I tried Allithiamine. And O.M.G. Less than 15 min after swallowing two capsules, I could feel my brain come back online, and I felt 100% again. Now I've been taking allithiamine like there's no tomorrow, and I'm worried that it will either stop working or will build up and cause a new problem. But mostly I'm so grateful to have found this stuff.

Has anyone else with fatigue tried this?

Why is it working so well for me-- anyone have any angles I can research?

 

[haidut]

Have any of you afternoon-crashers ever tried Allithiamine?

For 12 years I've had a weird combination of symptoms: afternoon crashes on about 1/2 of days (feels like my brain "whites out"), post-exertional fatigue (very strong urge to lie down anywhere and sleep), unusual breathlessness when exercising (sometimes, not always), brain fog, and tingling in the extremities. I've had an MRI to rule out MS.

Last year, while researching oxalates and chronic fatigue, I tried Allithiamine. And O.M.G. Less than 15 min after swallowing two capsules, I could feel my brain come back online, and I felt 100% again. Now I've been taking allithiamine like there's no tomorrow, and I'm worried that it will either stop working or will build up and cause a new problem. But mostly I'm so grateful to have found this stuff.

Has anyone else with fatigue tried this?

Why is it working so well for me-- anyone have any angles I can research?

One possible reason is that allithiamine is fat soluble and crosses the blood brain barrier much more easily AND also accumulates in tissues including the brain. I am not sure to what degree regular thiamine Hcl accumulates in tissues. So, in theory even if you stop taking it you should be able to function normally for longer until the stores get depleted down to the level that gives you deficiency symptoms.

 

[calliandra]

One possible reason is that allithiamine is fat soluble and crosses the blood brain barrier much more easily AND also accumulates in tissues including the brain. I am not sure to what degree regular thiamine Hcl accumulates in tissues. So, in theory even if you stop taking it you should be able to function normally for longer until the stores get depleted down to the level that gives you deficiency symptoms.

Thanks, Haidut.

Yes, it does build up. I know because in the beginning I needed two 50mg capsules of allithiamine several times a day to control my symptoms (about 300-600mg daily). After a month or two, I tapered off so that I was only taking it on about half of the mornings, and also before exercise, and if my fatigue appeared. I cut back because a blood test showed very high thiamine levels, and Ii became concerned that a buildup might affect my other Bs (don't biotin and thiamine share a transporter?) and create a new problem that I couldn't easily fix. Over the past week, I've had to start taking allithiamine at high doses again since my fatigue came back.

I would like to know if my symptoms are due to thiamine deficiency or something else. A thiamine deficiency doesn't really make sense to me. I eat well, I don't drink at all, I have taken a B-complex for decades. Before I tried allithiamine, I had a Spectracell test that showed good WBC levels of thiamine, so that would indicate I don't have a transporter problem. I just don't see how I could be low in thiamine!

And yet the allithiamine works.

Yesterday on the forums here I read about thiamine neutralizing ammonia (viewtopic.php?t=5749) .

Could I have an ammonia problem rather than a thiamine problem? What would that look like?