Afternoon Exhaustion

[Peata]

I am the same if I eat that lightly during the morning.
For me, I always do better if I eat lots in the morning. Trying to catch up in the afternoon once my energy has started to slump seldom works. Ideally, I keep snacking from breakfast to lunch, and eat my main protein meal at 11 or 12ish (including lots of carbs). I don't count calories at all rigorously, but I would guess that when I get it right I'm eating at least 1500cal before 1pm. If I do that, my energy is much better all afternoon, and I don't need to snack anywhere near as much in the afternoon and evening. I eat a lighter dinner (often soup) and supper (eg cheesecake). I still drink OJ and milk coffee through the afternoon too though, and snack when I feel like it.
For a while I was working where everyone went for their main meal about 11:30am. That was great for me. Where I grew up and live now, the culture is for large evening meals, and lots of people eat like sparrows for breakfast and lunch. I think that was key component contributing to my health issues - weak, fuzzy, dizzy in the afternoons, almost to fainting sometimes, I assume from hypoglycemia. These days, I can't align my family around my habits and needs, so I often cook a meal in the evening, and save mine to heat for lunch next day.

I've heard (RBTI, not Peat), that many people have a natural 24 blood sugar cycle that falls in the morning, is at it's lowest at midday, and rises again in the afternoon and evening. They recommend a solid breakfast while its falling, and a main meal (including main protein) midday when it's in the trough.

I think Peat has also recommended most protein during the day (and balanced with carbs etc), rather than the evening.

I suspect that not only do I need to eat this way to keep my blood sugar up at the time, but that it may also be when I am most efficient at using protein and storing glycogen for later.

I know not every one is like me on this - but some of it might apply.

No, this makes sense to me. I think it's how my body works too, I've just been fighting it for who knows how long. Partly because of an old habit of trying to save calories for dinner. If I only allotted myself a certain amount, the using up say, 1500 by noon would panic me a little. I know when I was on a trip earlier in July, I naturally ate a big breakfast and lunch and had a smaller dinner. I felt good doing this. But like you, it doesn't work with my situation at this time. I'm getting to where I want to try what you are doing though and see what happens. I have thought about saving my dinner (that I cook for everyone) for lunch the next day, and just have a light dinner.

 

[tara]

I don't know if it helps with thinking about calorie balance, but I figure if we feel more energetic, and actually are getting more done, we are probably burning more fuel than if we are sedentary out of exhaustion. And the latter might be causing the kind of stress that tends to lower metabolism (and therefore burn less fuel).

 

[haidut]

I had a much better day today, too -- and I wonder if it's because I ate a pretty substantial protein meal in the morning instead of just nibbling til slightly after noon. It might be just hunger and my body trying to catch up.

The 12-1300 calories was as of late afternoon -- no later than five PM. I am trying to stay around 2200 also; but that's at a caloric deficit since I'm trying to lose 15 pounds or so. I think my real caloric burn is about 2400-2600; especially when I am eating to support thyroid function.

Bingo!
I was following the thread to see if anyone will bring this up and it looks like you guys are on the right track. Peat has written about this, but I will reiterate. Anything less than 1g/kg b.w. of protein per day will create a protein deficiency and will put you in a catabolic state and will also strain the liver and brain with all the ammonia from muscle breakdown, with ammonia buildup being a classic cause of general fatigue. Also, without adequate protein you will have no dopamine and this alone will make you feel like crap. Finally, low protein intake means no conversion of T4 into T3 by the liver.
There is Peat quote on the front page about hypothyroidism and protein deficiency. Virtually, every person in the modern world is undereating (quality) protein. Fix your protein intake and many hypo symptoms will disappear.

 

[messtafarian]

Haidut -- that's a great thing to bring up! I've read some *amazing* things about getting enough protein and I am absolutely sure I don't!

It's really hard to do and I'm *always* looking for shortcuts. One cup of milk has only 8 grams of protein -- you would need to drink nearly three to get 20 grams. I've been supplementing with whey because there doesn't seem to be a good method to get enough in fast enough. But it's a good point and I'm going to try again with a very high protein breakfast tomorrow :)

 

[Peata]

A few years ago, I was doing this thing for a while where you ate at least 30 g. protein within an hour of waking up. It seemed to help me sleep better at night, fall asleep sooner, etc. I don't know. But I would eat Greek yogurt with protein powder (in this case, gelatin would be good) mixed in to start with. I'm not saying to do this or to eat yogurt, just that this thread reminded me of this. Who knows, Mess, perhaps getting more protein early on will help you wind down and sleep well too.

 

[haidut]

Haidut -- that's a great thing to bring up! I've read some *amazing* things about getting enough protein and I am absolutely sure I don't!

It's really hard to do and I'm *always* looking for shortcuts. One cup of milk has only 8 grams of protein -- you would need to drink nearly three to get 20 grams. I've been supplementing with whey because there doesn't seem to be a good method to get enough in fast enough. But it's a good point and I'm going to try again with a very high protein breakfast tomorrow :)

Yep, finding an affordable and convenient way to eat 80g+ of protein a day is a challenge. I personally try to solve it with dry cheeses, strained yogurt and eggs. To this day, keeping protein intake high enough has been the most challenging issues for me on Peatarian diet. Affordable, diverse, quality protein food is just not easy to find.

 

[Filip1993]

Haidut -- that's a great thing to bring up! I've read some *amazing* things about getting enough protein and I am absolutely sure I don't!

It's really hard to do and I'm *always* looking for shortcuts. One cup of milk has only 8 grams of protein -- you would need to drink nearly three to get 20 grams. I've been supplementing with whey because there doesn't seem to be a good method to get enough in fast enough. But it's a good point and I'm going to try again with a very high protein breakfast tomorrow :)

Yep, finding an affordable and convenient way to eat 80g+ of protein a day is a challenge. I personally try to solve it with dry cheeses, strained yogurt and eggs. To this day, keeping protein intake high enough has been the most challenging issues for me on Peatarian diet. Affordable, diverse, quality protein food is just not easy to find.

Milk?

 

[aquaman]

I usually don't feel that hungry in the a.m. and just have my coffee (with dairy & sugar). Sometimes I'll have some food. Today for example I had a few bites of cookie. I have carbonated water to take supplements.

Lunch might be something like Greek yogurt with fruit and honey. Or cottage cheese with tomato and a bit of homemade dressing. Or crackers and cheese with a few olive, or slices of toasted bread and goat milk cheese. Or a small plate of leftovers from the dinner before. Something along those lines. And another cup or two of something to drink.

Sounds like too little. I know Matt Stone advises on a huge meal in the morning, and tapering off through the day to help sleep. He generally is Peat-ish and obviously has the data from doing 1-on-1s with people. I'd try this, more solid peatey foods like cooked fruit with added sugar and salt. A medium portion of cooked apples with extra sugar you should be able to get 600+ calories in easily first thing in the morning.

 

[aquaman]

I am the same if I eat that lightly during the morning.
For me, I always do better if I eat lots in the morning. Trying to catch up in the afternoon once my energy has started to slump seldom works. Ideally, I keep snacking from breakfast to lunch, and eat my main protein meal at 11 or 12ish (including lots of carbs). I don't count calories at all rigorously, but I would guess that when I get it right I'm eating at least 1500cal before 1pm. If I do that, my energy is much better all afternoon, and I don't need to snack anywhere near as much in the afternoon and evening. I eat a lighter dinner (often soup) and supper (eg cheesecake). I still drink OJ and milk coffee through the afternoon too though, and snack when I feel like it.
For a while I was working where everyone went for their main meal about 11:30am. That was great for me. Where I grew up and live now, the culture is for large evening meals, and lots of people eat like sparrows for breakfast and lunch. I think that was key component contributing to my health issues - weak, fuzzy, dizzy in the afternoons, almost to fainting sometimes, I assume from hypoglycemia. These days, I can't align my family around my habits and needs, so I often cook a meal in the evening, and save mine to heat for lunch next day.

I've heard (RBTI, not Peat), that many people have a natural 24 blood sugar cycle that falls in the morning, is at it's lowest at midday, and rises again in the afternoon and evening. They recommend a solid breakfast while its falling, and a main meal (including main protein) midday when it's in the trough.

I think Peat has also recommended most protein during the day (and balanced with carbs etc), rather than the evening.

I suspect that not only do I need to eat this way to keep my blood sugar up at the time, but that it may also be when I am most efficient at using protein and storing glycogen for later.

I know not every one is like me on this - but some of it might apply.

GREAT post!

 

[haidut]

Haidut -- that's a great thing to bring up! I've read some *amazing* things about getting enough protein and I am absolutely sure I don't!

It's really hard to do and I'm *always* looking for shortcuts. One cup of milk has only 8 grams of protein -- you would need to drink nearly three to get 20 grams. I've been supplementing with whey because there doesn't seem to be a good method to get enough in fast enough. But it's a good point and I'm going to try again with a very high protein breakfast tomorrow :)

Yep, finding an affordable and convenient way to eat 80g+ of protein a day is a challenge. I personally try to solve it with dry cheeses, strained yogurt and eggs. To this day, keeping protein intake high enough has been the most challenging issues for me on Peatarian diet. Affordable, diverse, quality protein food is just not easy to find.

Milk?

Yes, milk is an option but it is not very convenient, at least for me. I need to have something that is calorie dense and can be carried around. Strained yogurt does the trick, but I try to eat other things as well. In general, it has gotten down to strained yogurt, cheese, oysters, shrimp, liver and eggs. I keep searching for new experiences though, so I will share when I find something new.

 

[messtafarian]

You know honestly I think people should be getting lean on Peat. The longer I sit with the things he's said and think about them I realize that the weight gain I experienced at first was simply because I was so focused on food and eating -- especially the fascinating new treats like haagen daz ice cream and tortilla fried in coconut oil, and Mexican Coke. Once you get through that phase you realize -- if you actually get 100 grams of protein in you per day there is not room for much else, and the sugar/fat safe starches couldn't possibly add up to very much.

I have not been able to do this, but theoretically -- 100 grams of protein plus one or two tbls of coconut oil plus sweet fruit to appetite *is essentially a low carb diet.*

 

[Peata]

I'm aiming for at least 250 g. carbs per day too. Along with 80 g. protein. Any feedback if this is a good ratio?

 

[Peata]

2:50 pm Temp: 98.4, Pulse 88. 1200 calories so far and 65 g. protein. 140 g. carbs. Still eating dense foods and not much extra liquids (no guzzling liquids all day like normal or downing cups of milk at a time).

Plenty of energy and head is clear. I decided to wait to do my work out til this evening and see if I still have energy during and after. The last time I worked out in the evening I felt drained during the workout and after, like I couldn't lift well and was moving through wet concrete.

I can tell I have some hormonal negative thoughts and anxieties, but otherwise things are good. Been doing bag-breathing.

Hope nobody minds the little personal log about it, but if this works for me the rest of the week I'll figure I have the afternoon fatigue/brain fog problem licked. That would be awesome if it was something this simple and a lot less "serious" than I thought as the cause of it.

 

[messtafarian]

Oh, dear, Peata, I fell asleep at 1:30 and slept until 4.

I had had by then about 50 grams of protein and maybe...hm. Not as many carbs, maybe 30. I just gave in, I was wiped out.

 

[Peata]

Oh, dear, Peata, I fell asleep at 1:30 and slept until 4.

I had had by then about 50 grams of protein and maybe...hm. Not as many carbs, maybe 30. I just gave in, I was wiped out.

I added the carbs I'd had by that time to my post above. Did you feel better after your sleep? You must have needed it.

 

[messtafarian]

Much better.

But it's strange how the energy just leaves me. One minute I'm full of plans and progress and the next I can't think straight.

I did not take extra thyroid today, maybe that was part of it.

 

[Peata]

I've been great since I started this experiment, except today. I think it was a couple different things causing it though. I was groggy from the time I woke up - probably due to an antihistamine I took last night. Another thing, I didn't eat as much this morning or get as much protein as I have been. That's probably a big part of this. Also it's been a cloudy cool day and I'm more energetic with the sun coming in. So I've been pretty "lazy" and a little drowsy today, having to make myself get anything done and still have most things on my list ahead of me at almost 4 p.m. My temp has been a little low today.

But the good things are that everytime I eat I get warm and feel better. And despite the bit of drowsiness, I have been able to focus on what I put my attention to, which is more than I could say when I had the fatigue/brain fog. Right now my temp is 98.4. Pulse 92. I've had 1,100 calories so far at about 4 p.m.. 62 g. protein, 148 g. carb.

 

[Peata]

Much better.

But it's strange how the energy just leaves me. One minute I'm full of plans and progress and the next I can't think straight.

I did not take extra thyroid today, maybe that was part of it.

You might try increasing your carbs. The other day I think you said you'd only had 30 g. carb by early afternoon. Don't eat protein alone or carbs alone. HTH.

 

[Katty]

Right now my temp is 98.4. Pulse 92. I've had 1,100 calories so far at about 4 p.m.. 62 g. protein, 148 g. carb.

I don't understand how everyone is eating so few calories. Sorry to single you out, Peata, your post was just the most recent. I'm only 5'1 and female, and I'm around 1100-1200 calories by 5pm and I'm starving at that time. I know I need to eat more earlier in the day, but have issues with making it happen. Peata, I think you mentioned you are about 5'6? Granted I've gained a lot of weight so it's possible we're close to the same weight.. maybe we do need similar calories. But it seems someone who is 5 inches taller than I am who is doing regular workouts would need a lot more food than that.
I see a lot of men posting they eat around 100g of protein... and I think they must be starving, or that their carbs are like 75-80% of their calories.
I sometimes wonder if I'm starving all the time because I'm mineral deficient, and not because I need more calories. Though maybe it's a bit of both. It's 7:30pm, I've even 1730 calories, 96 grams of protein, and I'm still pretty hungry at the moment.

I suspect that if I could increase my calories to about 2100, I would feel pretty awesome. Only problem is my carb ratio would get too high (70-80%) because I can't get in more than 90-100g of protein, and even that is pushing it. Even though I kind of think it will work, I'm also afraid to gain more weight.

But I do think underrating is a big problem with people's energy levels.

 

[Peata]

Right now my temp is 98.4. Pulse 92. I've had 1,100 calories so far at about 4 p.m.. 62 g. protein, 148 g. carb.

I don't understand how everyone is eating so few calories. Sorry to single you out, Peata, your post was just the most recent. I'm only 5'1 and female, and I'm around 1100-1200 calories by 5pm and I'm starving at that time. I know I need to eat more earlier in the day, but have issues with making it happen. Peata, I think you mentioned you are about 5'6? Granted I've gained a lot of weight so it's possible we're close to the same weight.. maybe we do need similar calories. But it seems someone who is 5 inches taller than I am who is doing regular workouts would need a lot more food than that.
I see a lot of men posting they eat around 100g of protein... and I think they must be starving, or that their carbs are like 75-80% of their calories.
I sometimes wonder if I'm starving all the time because I'm mineral deficient, and not because I need more calories. Though maybe it's a bit of both. It's 7:30pm, I've even 1730 calories, 96 grams of protein, and I'm still pretty hungry at the moment.

I suspect that if I could increase my calories to about 2100, I would feel pretty awesome. Only problem is my carb ratio would get too high (70-80%) because I can't get in more than 90-100g of protein, and even that is pushing it. Even though I kind of think it will work, I'm also afraid to gain more weight.

But I do think underrating is a big problem with people's energy levels.

I agree, I think so many of us are just so programmed to eat little, especially the early part of the day, from years of weight-loss schemes, intermittent fasting and so forth. It's so ingrained in us by now we don't even realize we are doing it and that it is probably a big part -or at least one part, of our physical and mental/emotional problems. We aren't giving ourselves the energy to do much more than barely function, let along keep blood sugar up, think clearly, be active, etc. I was stuck in that rut until this week.

I know you didn't really direct the post at me, but for me personally I think today was just somewhat of an outlier due to hormones. I'm sure I'm ovulating. And my appetite has been screwed up all day. Plus I've been so sleepy this evening I just wanted to nap and I never do that. It's all kind of blah. I barely did anything on my to-do list and couldn't muster the ambition to work out or take a walk. I think it's more than the lesser calories I had earlier, more about hormones at this point. I just hope to start fresh tomorrow. But at any rate, I had those calories I listed earlier in day, and currently at 9 p.m. I'm at 2,300 and not done for the day. I'm usually well content around 2000, sometimes less, so I'll chalk this up to hormones as I mentioned.

I'm still playing around with the macro ratios, but I seem to want a lot more fat than I thought I would. I usually struggle to get in all the protein too, but I'm getting better at it. I find trying to get a lot in first thing in the morning helps a lot.

I guess if my little theories in my head are right, this setback of energy and bloat should be temporary and I should pull back out of it by tomorrow or Sun at the latest.

I can't seem to lose weight, but at least I've stopped the constant gain now - for over a month I've maintained so that's good at least.

I'm rambling now but I do think you are right in that many of us need to eat more for energy.