10 y.old: copper overload and underactive thyroid

[x-rain]

My dear Peat community, I’m looking for advises for my ADD 10y.o son.
Just got diagnosed w/underactive thyroid and copper overload. I’m attaching his last results.

Would highly appreciate your thoughts on what could affect his thyroid (was it copper or possibly smth. else) and how we can try to up his thyroid naturally, as well what to do with copper.

I don’t know for how long he has this copper issue going (this is the last thing docs would want to check), but I definitely see his thyroid going down since 2019. TSH was 1.5 in 2019, in 2022 – 2.0 and 2023 – 3.7.

This goes along with worsening of his ADD symptoms and others:
- HUGE sleep issues (difficulties going to sleep and multiple wakeups through the night)
- difficulty concentrating and memorizing
- struggles with school progress (went from 95% to 25%)
- mood swings: sadness to excitement, outbursts of anger and irritability, often low grade anxiety.
- very tired in the mornings and hyperactive pm.
- multiple flues/colds in the past year.

And things have dramatically worsened in the last 6-9mo. During this period he significantly (like x4 times) increased his sports activities and lives in high-stress environment due to a family situation.

Some of his health history:
- adenoidectomy in 2019, long before I learned a lot …
- appendicectomy in early 2020. Both w/antibiotics and we had long entertainment to restore his digestion.
- He was a bit anemic and D-deficient, but currently his levels look much better.

His BT looks a little elevated to me: 36.7-36.9C (97.9-98.4F) am, 37,5-37,6C (99.5-99.7F) pm, 37.1C (98.8F) before bed (runs on cortisol?)
BP is normal for his age.
He is rather constipated, but Magnesium 200mg/day makes him regular.

His diet is mostly eggs, chicken, beef, milk, yogurt, cheese, broth/soups, fruits, some vegies (cucumbers, carrots, beets, potato), honey, OJ and other juices, rice, pasta and home-made bread, gelatin to boost his protein intake. BUT he does not have appetite and usually consumes only 1200-1300k/day. Despite that, he is very tall for his age…
Also, he has to have occasional school dinners…
He does not have any allergies or gluten sensitivity.

Supplements: Estroban + Energin full dose/day + sperti lamp for D + Thorne Trace Mineral 1/day + additional Zn ~10mg/day to antagonize his copper +Mg 200mg/day.

We tried:
- Thorne multivitamins 2/day for about 2years, and had great respond to them initially. But taken for so long and coupled with gelatin, it may have contributed to copper overload (?)
- black tee/ some coffee for caffeine + L-theanine for ADD, and
- high dose of different forms of Thiamine, but I did not see noticeable improvements from both.
- stopped sport completely and got some sleep improvements.

To what I learned so far, copper overload can indirectly make thyroid working less efficiently. On the other hand, hypothyroidism can also affect liver’s ability to filter out copper properly.
Zink, EGCG, Vit C, A (not sure here, though), B3, B6, B5 can help with copper overload. Please correct/ add your thoughts.

As to thyroid issue…
I do not want to jump on supplementing thyroid until I try all possibilities to improve it in natural way. Most likely, because I did not have success with levothyroxine/liothyronine myself. There are a lot of things to screw up on this road if you do not have great understanding what you are doing. Also, I would have impaired feedback from him (child’s communications) and would need frequent bloodworks to monitor his levels.

Sorry guys, I tried to keep this post short and readable, but wanted to include some details as well.

@redsun, @haidut, @Hans, @youngsinatra would highly appreciate your thoughts.

@Daniil, just started your thread on ADHD and copper. So you think supplementing some Vit A in addition to the diet would help? His ceruloplasmin is already on the higher side.

 

[redsun]

My dear Peat community, I’m looking for advises for my ADD 10y.o son.
Just got diagnosed w/underactive thyroid and copper overload. I’m attaching his last results.

Would highly appreciate your thoughts on what could affect his thyroid (was it copper or possibly smth. else) and how we can try to up his thyroid naturally, as well what to do with copper.

I don’t know for how long he has this copper issue going (this is the last thing docs would want to check), but I definitely see his thyroid going down since 2019. TSH was 1.5 in 2019, in 2022 – 2.0 and 2023 – 3.7.

This goes along with worsening of his ADD symptoms and others:
- HUGE sleep issues (difficulties going to sleep and multiple wakeups through the night)
- difficulty concentrating and memorizing
- struggles with school progress (went from 95% to 25%)
- mood swings: sadness to excitement, outbursts of anger and irritability, often low grade anxiety.
- very tired in the mornings and hyperactive pm.
- multiple flues/colds in the past year.

And things have dramatically worsened in the last 6-9mo. During this period he significantly (like x4 times) increased his sports activities and lives in high-stress environment due to a family situation.

Some of his health history:
- adenoidectomy in 2019, long before I learned a lot …
- appendicectomy in early 2020. Both w/antibiotics and we had long entertainment to restore his digestion.
- He was a bit anemic and D-deficient, but currently his levels look much better.

His BT looks a little elevated to me: 36.7-36.9C (97.9-98.4F) am, 37,5-37,6C (99.5-99.7F) pm, 37.1C (98.8F) before bed (runs on cortisol?)
BP is normal for his age.
He is rather constipated, but Magnesium 200mg/day makes him regular.

His diet is mostly eggs, chicken, beef, milk, yogurt, cheese, broth/soups, fruits, some vegies (cucumbers, carrots, beets, potato), honey, OJ and other juices, rice, pasta and home-made bread, gelatin to boost his protein intake. BUT he does not have appetite and usually consumes only 1200-1300k/day. Despite that, he is very tall for his age…
Also, he has to have occasional school dinners…
He does not have any allergies or gluten sensitivity.

Supplements: Estroban + Energin full dose/day + sperti lamp for D + Thorne Trace Mineral 1/day + additional Zn ~10mg/day to antagonize his copper +Mg 200mg/day.

We tried:
- Thorne multivitamins 2/day for about 2years, and had great respond to them initially. But taken for so long and coupled with gelatin, it may have contributed to copper overload (?)
- black tee/ some coffee for caffeine + L-theanine for ADD, and
- high dose of different forms of Thiamine, but I did not see noticeable improvements from both.
- stopped sport completely and got some sleep improvements.

To what I learned so far, copper overload can indirectly make thyroid working less efficiently. On the other hand, hypothyroidism can also affect liver’s ability to filter out copper properly.
Zink, EGCG, Vit C, A (not sure here, though), B3, B6, B5 can help with copper overload. Please correct/ add your thoughts.

As to thyroid issue…
I do not want to jump on supplementing thyroid until I try all possibilities to improve it in natural way. Most likely, because I did not have success with levothyroxine/liothyronine myself. There are a lot of things to screw up on this road if you do not have great understanding what you are doing. Also, I would have impaired feedback from him (child’s communications) and would need frequent bloodworks to monitor his levels.

Sorry guys, I tried to keep this post short and readable, but wanted to include some details as well.

@redsun, @haidut, @Hans, @youngsinatra would highly appreciate your thoughts.

@Daniil, just started your thread on ADHD and copper. So you think supplementing some Vit A in addition to the diet would help? His ceruloplasmin is already on the higher side.

There's really nothing surprising here. The vitamin and mineral supplements you are giving him are probably what's doing it. Kids really do not any nutrient supplements unless they have a known deficiency. You are giving him a full dose of energin and fat solubles, and also mineral supplements. These things are responsible for his sleep problems, mood swings, attention issues, because of their stimulating effects. Especially B vitamins. He's only 10 and his diet looks good so you are just giving him all this extra stuff that is sending him on a constant metaphorical rollercoaster ride. This is why he also has high temps.

He is definitely not hypo, if anything he is hyperthyroid but its not true hyperthyroid its just all things he is taking is speeding up his metabolic rate leading to higher body temperatures. This is why he cannot tolerate sports, there is already too much stress on the system. Exercise on top further amplifies stress. He should be able to do sports again once you take him off everything and stick to just food.

Copper could be elevated due to excessive intake but you say he isnt taking the multi with copper in it anymore. His liver may be under a lot of stress from all the things you are giving him. Elevated ceruloplasmin is not necessarily bad and may just be a sign of his increased oxidative stress due to increased metabolic rate (high temps is a very obvious indicator of this).

Take him off all of these supplements and all his issues will stabilize quickly. This is a good lesson on not giving children too many supplements. It doesnt matter that they are essential micronutrients. Actually, because they are essential it can lead to very strong effects when you overdo them. He'll be alright though.

 

[youngsinatra]

I agree with redsun that he does not need supplements. His diet is more nutrient dense than 99,9% of other children.

The RDAs on supplements are set for grown adults, children need less than adults.

I‘d increase his beef intake for a while, to boost his zinc intake, because his zinc levels have dropped significantly and to my knowledge even got into slight deficiency. The optimal plasma zinc is 90-120 to my knowledge. That should help him with a lot of issues — esp. mental issues, ADHD, sleep, digestion and especially appetite.

 

[Diokine]

So many supplements.... where's the folate?

 

[x-rain]

There's really nothing surprising here. The vitamin and mineral supplements you are giving him are probably what's doing it. Kids really do not any nutrient supplements unless they have a known deficiency. You are giving him a full dose of energin and fat solubles, and also mineral supplements. These things are responsible for his sleep problems, mood swings, attention issues, because of their stimulating effects. Especially B vitamins. He's only 10 and his diet looks good so you are just giving him all this extra stuff that is sending him on a constant metaphorical rollercoaster ride. This is why he also has high temps.

He is definitely not hypo, if anything he is hyperthyroid but its not true hyperthyroid its just all things he is taking is speeding up his metabolic rate leading to higher body temperatures. This is why he cannot tolerate sports, there is already too much stress on the system. Exercise on top further amplifies stress. He should be able to do sports again once you take him off everything and stick to just food.

Copper could be elevated due to excessive intake but you say he isnt taking the multi with copper in it anymore. His liver may be under a lot of stress from all the things you are giving him. Elevated ceruloplasmin is not necessarily bad and may just be a sign of his increased oxidative stress due to increased metabolic rate (high temps is a very obvious indicator of this).

Take him off all of these supplements and all his issues will stabilize quickly. This is a good lesson on not giving children too many supplements. It doesnt matter that they are essential micronutrients. Actually, because they are essential it can lead to very strong effects when you overdo them. He'll be alright though.

Thank you @redsun... That's true a good lesson. I suspected there may be too much of everything.

How would you interpret his thyroid results? It does look underactive...

Do I have to worry about high copper? Do you think it will normalize through the time just with food?

I‘d increase his beef intake for a while, to boost his zinc intake, because his zinc levels have dropped significantly and to my knowledge even got into slight deficiency. The optimal plasma zinc is 90-120 to my knowledge. That should help him with a lot of issues — esp. mental issues, ADHD, sleep, digestion and especially appetite.

Thank you @youngsinatra! That makes sense to me. Will try to increase his beef intake. Definitely safer then supps...

 

[redsun]

Thank you @redsun... That's true a good lesson. I suspected there may be too much of everything.

How would you interpret his thyroid results? It does look underactive...

Do I have to worry about high copper? Do you think it will normalize through the time just with food?



Thank you @youngsinatra! That makes sense to me. Will try to increase his beef intake. Definitely safer then supps...

TSH creeping up over the years is probably caused by the stress from all the supplementation. It should normalize on its own. The fact that his temp is generally higher than normal definitely means thyroid is not underactive.

 

[x-rain]

So many supplements.... where's the folate?

Good point. There does not seem to be enough from his diet. What do you recommend?

 

[Limon9]

The nu-Energin with prosultiamine instead of thiamine hydrochloride is ridiculously stimulating. If you're taking it to simply cover bases, literally 2-3 drops would compensate the b-vitamins lost from gorging on white rice or whatever.

 

[Momma]

Hi.
I wasn’t tagged, but my input is regarding their calories. Too low imo. I’d add more dense calories in ice cream, cheesecake, milkshakes, smoothies etc.
Also agree with stopping all supplements.

 

[x-rain]

Hi.
I wasn’t tagged, but my input is regarding their calories. Too low imo. I’d add more dense calories in ice cream, cheesecake, milkshakes, smoothies etc.
Also agree with stopping all supplements.

@Momma, I appreciate any input, as it may give new directions to think.
Calories look low to me as well. No appetite, even with sport and regular fresh air.

 

[brightside]

The nu-Energin with prosultiamine instead of thiamine hydrochloride is ridiculously stimulating. If you're taking it to simply cover bases, literally 2-3 drops would compensate the b-vitamins lost from gorging on white rice or whatever.

Have you tried TTFD? If you did, how would you say that compares to the prosultiamine? I'm asking because I don't want to spend money to just try a few mg of the stuff, but I guess since its not available anywhere else, its the only way. For context, I take atleast 200mg of TTFD to feel okish.

 

[Momma]

@Momma, I appreciate any input, as it may give new directions to think.
Calories look low to me as well. No appetite, even with sport and regular fresh air.

Agree. Ask him what sounds good to him out of some of those possible choices. He needs more. It doesn’t have to be a perfect food; but one he can enjoy and nourish him and help him sleep. I think he’s hungry.

 

[Limon9]

Have you tried TTFD? If you did, how would you say that compares to the prosultiamine? I'm asking because I don't want to spend money to just try a few mg of the stuff, but I guess since its not available anywhere else, its the only way. For context, I take atleast 200mg of TTFD to feel okish.

Never tried it, sorry. It appears that people are successful with different analogs, so sticking with what works is probably fine

 

[brightside]

Never tried it, sorry. It appears that people are successful with different analogs, so sticking with what works is probably fine

Fair enough, thanks anyways

 

[Bliss]

Hello X-rain, I don’t know about the copper and hypothyroidism. I would say supplemental B-vits have been helpful with my son (12 yrs, ASD), so I wouldn’t cut them out completely, but a full dose of energin could be too much, particularly the prosultiamine which personally gives me detox symptoms. However I wanted to suggest, have you looked into primitive reflex integration/ brain hemisphere integration / the rhythmic movement method for re-wiring and strengthening the necessary brain connections that could help with ADD more generally? Search for videos by Lorraine Driscoll and others on youtube for more information.

 

[x-rain]

Hello X-rain, I don’t know about the copper and hypothyroidism. I would say supplemental B-vits have been helpful with my son (12 yrs, ASD), so I wouldn’t cut them out completely, but a full dose of energin could be too much, particularly the prosultiamine which personally gives me detox symptoms. However I wanted to suggest, have you looked into primitive reflex integration/ brain hemisphere integration / the rhythmic movement method for re-wiring and strengthening the necessary brain connections that could help with ADD more generally? Search for videos by Lorraine Driscoll and others on youtube for more information.

@Bliss, thank you for your input!
That what confuses me. We did not start vitamins because he was good. We started them to see if we can improve what was going wrong and had great response at that time.
Thank you for Lorraine Driscoll. I have not heard of those methodic, will have a look.

 

[Lemminkäinen]

Hi X-rain,
To me it looks like maybe some kind of overdoing organ meats or supplements. I wouldn't be surprised if his vitamin A or selenium were too high, too. The way you list his foods makes me think he might be doing accidental keto or carnivore from time to time, too, which could also explain TSH. Kids need fewer proteins than adults as a percentage of their total caloric intake. I would definitely add more cookies, cakes and ice creams and other good stuff, especially since you seem to be knowledgeable and able to bake homemade bread already. My kids eat pretty much the same diet as yours, but they add like 1000 calories more of just butter and flour from delicious things that I bake for extra calories.
Have a nice day!

 

[x-rain]

Hi X-rain,
To me it looks like maybe some kind of overdoing organ meats or supplements. I wouldn't be surprised if his vitamin A or selenium were too high, too. The way you list his foods makes me think he might be doing accidental keto or carnivore from time to time, too, which could also explain TSH. Kids need fewer proteins than adults as a percentage of their total caloric intake. I would definitely add more cookies, cakes and ice creams and other good stuff, especially since you seem to be knowledgeable and able to bake homemade bread already. My kids eat pretty much the same diet as yours, but they add like 1000 calories more of just butter and flour from delicious things that I bake for extra calories.
Have a nice day!

@Lemminkäinen, that interesting, I'll watch closely. We do have pies, cheesecakes/cakes, ice-cream, gelatinous deserts ets. I tend to think this is rather low calorie intake vs high activity. He does not seem to have appetite at all. I hear "I'm full / can't eat any more" much more often then "I'm hungry". He cannot finish even a half-cup of ice-cream!)) literally eats like a bird. That's ADD/ADHD and bad sleep adding. He would rather do his endless projects then eat at all.