Copper Supplementation Increased Brown Spots Number

[Momentum]

There is a group on Facebook that is mainly an hypermobility Ehlers-Danlos group, but they have great information about copper; how the tests do not measure bio-available, the only bio-available supplement form, that some people have way too much copper - but it's not bio-available, etc. A lot of links to zinc as well. They hypothesize that if you increase bio-available copper it will reduce the bad (or is it copper in the wrong places?). Seems similar to taking vitamin K to get calcium out of the bad places and into where it belongs.
Sorry for my rambling post, it's early for me.
The group is at RCCX and Chronic Illness Discussion and there is some very interesting info and theory on the owners personal site which is linked on the right hand column of the fb group. She is a psychiatrist with EDS.

 

[Kingpinguin]

What was your ferritin when you starting supplementing iron? Did it was iron bisglycinate that you take?

Thank you.

my ferritin was 35. And serum iron was just above bottom reference range. Transferrin saturation also indicated low iron if i remember correctly. My hemoglobin level was good though.

 

[Kingpinguin]

There is a group on Facebook that is mainly an hypermobility Ehlers-Danlos group, but they have great information about copper; how the tests do not measure bio-available, the only bio-available supplement form, that some people have way too much copper - but it's not bio-available, etc. A lot of links to zinc as well. They hypothesize that if you increase bio-available copper it will reduce the bad (or is it copper in the wrong places?). Seems similar to taking vitamin K to get calcium out of the bad places and into where it belongs.
Sorry for my rambling post, it's early for me.
The group is at RCCX and Chronic Illness Discussion and there is some very interesting info and theory on the owners personal site which is linked on the right hand column of the fb group. She is a psychiatrist with EDS.

yes this is true. Copper becomes bioavailable with retinol/vitamin A. If you are vitamin A deficient you will store copper and have free copper floating around. You want most your copper tied up to ceruloplasmin. Taking copper without retinol is like taking calcium without vitamin D & K2.
Theres a study at ncbi where supplementing rats with retinol significantly increased ceruloplasmin. And with continued supplementation ceruloplasmin kept rising for 4 days untill it became 4x higher than normally. Rats though who was copper deficient didnt get any increase by retinol. This show you need copper but retinol is needed to start the synthesis of ceruloplasmin helping to put that copper to work. This is why zinc also inhibits ceruloplasmin. Zinc degraded retinol to retinyl and other less active metabolites.

 

[Kunstruct]

@Kingpinguin

Have you taken retinol also or are you still taking? If yes, what dosage and how often?

 

[Lucas]

my ferritin was 35. And serum iron was just above bottom reference range. Transferrin saturation also indicated low iron if i remember correctly. My hemoglobin level was good though.

Thank you, so with my ferritin of 169 iron supplementation is not recommended on my case.

 

[Kingpinguin]

Thank you, so with my ferritin of 169 iron supplementation is not recommended on my case.

i dont suspect it would be. Dont think that number indicates any toxicity though. Depends on your other iron markers if they seem saturated and high. You could have high ferritin and low iron because of inflammation. So a C reactive protein test would indicate if that is the case. If its elevated then ferritin could be double what it actually is

 

[RWilly]

This is why zinc also inhibits ceruloplasmin. Zinc degraded retinol to retinyl and other less active metabolites.

At the same time, zinc is needed to transport vitamin A in the blood, as it's part of retinol binding protein.

 

[RWilly]

Thank you, so with my ferritin of 169 iron supplementation is not recommended on my case.

I wouldn't supplement iron.
You May Want to Think Twice About that Iron Supplement

 

[Momentum]

Great info @Kingpinguin ! Think I'll be ordering some vitamin A.
I realize it's not the same as Accutane, but I do believe so many suffer from the damage Accutane does that I have been a bit afraid to take A. I need to study it out.

 

[Amazoniac]

Any insight on what hyperosmotic therapy entails?

Fluid redistribution by giving concentrated solutions that draw it in balancing from where it has accumulated.

 

[Kingpinguin]

At the same time, zinc is needed to transport vitamin A in the blood, as it's part of retinol binding protein.

yepp thats true zinc plays a role in both transport and metabolism of vitamin A. Just believe theres an homeostasis that needs to be achieved. It’s like what I notcied with many other cases that people use zinc supplements then they get strange symptoms and they do blood test zinc levels tend to be low even though they use high doses of it. Once they add in copper and remove the zinc. Their serum zinc levels rise up. And that probably has to do with a homeostasis effect. And whats in the serum, plasma doesnt always reflect tissue, cellular levels of a mineral. Maybe body feel it doesnt need high zinc levels in the blood if there’s a lack of copper and maybe increasing plasma copper then tells the body to release zinc stores. We don’t know and its very confusing because these type of things do occur. Liver stores more iron when copper is not there. Zinc forces cellular iron out of cells, retinol forces copper out of liver. Who knows what we don’t even know yet. I try to supplement so that I can feel good. Go by instinct and listen to the body. Because we know so little what actually happens with these minerals inside the body and less so how they affect each other. There’s probably a whole eco system of interactions of minerals, enzymes, proteins, vitamins, hormones etc we dont have a single clue hiw they interact. We are just guessing and humans dont tend to look at the larger picture. Mostly individual studies measuring one thing but mot accounting for all the other factors. Because that would make the studies sooo complex and hard. The best thing would be not to supplement zinc, copper or iron. Just get it from diet. But I like many others was tricked to believe zinc was healthy, zinc is safe etc. And then become sick. And in my own case I would never been able to reverse it without copper and a bit of iron i believe. I tried. Now that I feel good I’ve mostly dropped all my supplements and supplement very rarely. Never take something just because its routine or daily. I take something with purpose because I feel in a certain why or so. Because eventually you become very good at listening to your body and its signals. But yeah still today I also struggle to sometimes figure out whats best and whats OK. But a much more minimalistic approach is the best with supplements. When I was young and dumb I just thought man I take all these things I be like superman. Lol thats not jow it works and you learn that from experience. Think many can relate. Also supplement marketing is extremely decieving.

 

[RWilly]

yepp thats true zinc plays a role in both transport and metabolism of vitamin A. Just believe theres an homeostasis that needs to be achieved. It’s like what I notcied with many other cases that people use zinc supplements then they get strange symptoms and they do blood test zinc levels tend to be low even though they use high doses of it. Once they add in copper and remove the zinc. Their serum zinc levels rise up. And that probably has to do with a homeostasis effect. And whats in the serum, plasma doesnt always reflect tissue, cellular levels of a mineral. Maybe body feel it doesnt need high zinc levels in the blood if there’s a lack of copper and maybe increasing plasma copper then tells the body to release zinc stores. We don’t know and its very confusing because these type of things do occur. Liver stores more iron when copper is not there. Zinc forces cellular iron out of cells, retinol forces copper out of liver. Who knows what we don’t even know yet. I try to supplement so that I can feel good. Go by instinct and listen to the body. Because we know so little what actually happens with these minerals inside the body and less so how they affect each other. There’s probably a whole eco system of interactions of minerals, enzymes, proteins, vitamins, hormones etc we dont have a single clue hiw they interact. We are just guessing and humans dont tend to look at the larger picture. Mostly individual studies measuring one thing but mot accounting for all the other factors. Because that would make the studies sooo complex and hard. The best thing would be not to supplement zinc, copper or iron. Just get it from diet. But I like many others was tricked to believe zinc was healthy, zinc is safe etc. And then become sick. And in my own case I would never been able to reverse it without copper and a bit of iron i believe. I tried. Now that I feel good I’ve mostly dropped all my supplements and supplement very rarely. Never take something just because its routine or daily. I take something with purpose because I feel in a certain why or so. Because eventually you become very good at listening to your body and its signals. But yeah still today I also struggle to sometimes figure out whats best and whats OK. But a much more minimalistic approach is the best with supplements. When I was young and dumb I just thought man I take all these things I be like superman. Lol thats not jow it works and you learn that from experience. Think many can relate. Also supplement marketing is extremely decieving.

Yeah... I would agree with that.

 

[Tristan Loscha]

I used to have low ceruloplasmin from heavy zinc use. Id ended up with all the symptoms and searched many years for reason and cure. My symptoms was extreme fatigue, anxiety, low libido and most pronounce bad joints, joint cracking and pop almost every couple of minutes, also severe restless legs. Eventually I started to notice that symptoms became worse everytime I took zinc supplement specially between 30-100mg dosage. Was very stupid of me. I suffered so much for many years. Eventually I made the connection. I bought copper and read so much about it specially its role in healthy joints. My joints felt destroyed at age 24. And my life was a misery. Once I started taking copper I noticed a little improvement within the first week. After a month I could really tell it was working. I went did ceruloplasmin test when I started out. My ceruloplasmin was 15 with range was 15-45. So it was just on range to be under acceptable and any result under 20 could apparently be suspected as wilsons disease where you have a dysfunction of ceruloplasmin production. I didnt have wilsons disease. I had just tanked my copper so much using zinc. Took me 6 Months of copper supplementation of 4-10mg per day to get my ceruloplasmin to 36. All symptoms gone. I still have very minor joint issues still improving to this day. Back when I used 14mg I did not notice anything special except improvements in my symptoms. But thats not strange since I likely was so severly low in copper stores. Still to this day I now take 2mg copper everyday. I think modern diet today generally lacks it. I eat liver now aswell buy I’m also heavy meat eater with high zinc from diet. I’ve tried zinc today and honestly it makes me feel ***t just 2 days in I throw away the bottle I can tell symptoms are returning if I use it. I can eat 50mg zinc from meat and get no symptoms but even 10-20mg from supplements make me crap. Since then I have also found out the combination of retinol and copper being the best fastest way to restore both copper and ceruloplasmin. You need copper to make ceruloplasmin in the liver but this wont happen without adequate retinol. Retinol helps keep copper away from organs and liver out in the blood as ceruloplasmin. And copper/ceruloplasmin helps keep iron from tissue build up. It helps iron to load on transferrin receptor and transport it around where its needed. This system is soooo inportant for your health and metabolism it cant be understated. Zinc is a very dangerous mineral to play with. I think imo its much more risky to play with than with copper. People say copper depletes zinc. I have never seen a single study on this. Theres no evidence for it only that minerals can block absorption. But that goes for any mineral. Zinc actually reduces ceruloplasmin and copper. Maybe through using up retinol levels. I know zinc and retinol has some sort of relationship. So if your supplementing zinc I’m sure you would need both retinol and copper to avoid bad effects. Even then I’m not sure. I think this area with these minerals are under studied. Very complex relationships.

Did you ever took Copper Gluconate? Do you have a comment on this form, and what kinds of Cu did you take at the beginning of your recovery of ceruloplasmin?

 

[GenericName86]

Did you ever took Copper Gluconate? Do you have a comment on this form, and what kinds of Cu did you take at the beginning of your recovery of ceruloplasmin?

I'd be interested to know this too, I just checked when he was last seen on here and it was May, hopefully he comes back to answer. I keep hearing that the mitosynergy is the best kind but don't know if that's just marketing.

 

[Tristan Loscha]

I'd be interested to know this too, I just checked when he was last seen on here and it was May, hopefully he comes back to answer. I keep hearing that the mitosynergy is the best kind but don't know if that's just marketing.

yeah.

 

[ljihkugft7]

I have started supplementing with copper 1mg up to 2mg every other day.
After only 7 doses new clearly defined dark brown spots have appeared on my face and skin, all in all I only had around 7 before on my whole body, small and clearly defined. I now clearly see a new one on the left side of my nose, one not so clear on my forehead.

Why is this happening and why so quickly, if I am not mistaken I have read others have noticed this too.

At the same time I also took a bit of Zinc, like 10mg which usually renders me quite sleepy and with slight apathy, with a bit of copper things are not as bad in these few days which I have tried zinc and copper at different hours and not each day.

Hasn't even Ray Peat noticed this on himself too at some point with copper? That quickly brown spots increased. Not sure bout his dosage, I see people sometimes post high copper dosages on the forum but not really mention of brown spots.

I’ve also just noticed this!!

but not from supplementation...I’ve started eating 2tbs of raw liver everyday (as well as bee pollen).
Yesterday I had a crazy amount of calcium (3000mg) and everything else was normal. Magnesium Ratio was most likely low.

This morning my freckles were noticeably very dark, much darker than usual. They’re usually Light to Medium brown, but they went dark brown over night.

I also donated blood this week and I’m on my second day of my period (heavy-ish flow).

I have a feeling that my zinc has been low?

I also started upping my dose of progesterone last week.

*** Questions ***
are freckles darkening a bad thing? could it be a good thing? They look better dark anyway, more defined, instead of a brown blurs.

If it’s a bad thing, Does low zinc and high copper cause freckles to darken? I should up my zinc?

———-
I have odd theories - correct me if I’m way off haha

I think that my blood donation + high copper diet ect caused my melanin production to shift from Pheomelanin dominance (light brown) towards eumelanin (dark brown)?? Surely Iron plays a role in the more red based phenotypes? And copper makes blue based phenotypes?

 

[IlektraT]

I’ve also just noticed this!!

but not from supplementation...I’ve started eating 2tbs of raw liver everyday (as well as bee pollen).
Yesterday I had a crazy amount of calcium (3000mg) and everything else was normal. Magnesium Ratio was most likely low.

This morning my freckles were noticeably very dark, much darker than usual. They’re usually Light to Medium brown, but they went dark brown over night.

I also donated blood this week and I’m on my second day of my period (heavy-ish flow).

I have a feeling that my zinc has been low?

I also started upping my dose of progesterone last week.

*** Questions ***
are freckles darkening a bad thing? could it be a good thing? They look better dark anyway, more defined, instead of a brown blurs.

If it’s a bad thing, Does low zinc and high copper cause freckles to darken? I should up my zinc?

———-
I have odd theories - correct me if I’m way off haha

I think that my blood donation + high copper diet ect caused my melanin production to shift from Pheomelanin dominance (light brown) towards eumelanin (dark brown)?? Surely Iron plays a role in the more red based phenotypes? And copper makes blue based phenotypes?

Only your freckles got darker, not your whole skin too?

I noticed my freckles got a lot lighter while I was taking vitamin c, a copper chelator.

 

[Daniil]

Raj's..

- The Edema of Stress

"Many animal diseases, produced by copper deficiency and its associated respiratory defect, involve swelling of the brain and/or spinal cord. Dogs, horses, and sheep develop weakness or paralysis of the hind legs, as a result of compression of the edematous spinal cord. In chronic copper deficiency, cells absorb an excess or iron,[14] so treatment isn't just a simple matter of giving supplementary copper. Hyperosmotic therapy, to directly relieve the swelling and restore circulation, would probably have to be the first step. In treating either hypoxia or iron-overload, there is the danger of tissue injury from the free radicals produced by reduced iron."​

And what should I do if I suspect I am deficient in copper?

At least in my analyzes, my copper is at the lower limit of the norm. But I seem to have a bad reaction to taking copper supplements and I decided to retake the analysis just in case. It seems that throughout my life I ate predominantly low amounts of copper and avoided liver, chocolate, seafood. True, I have been on a vegan diet with lots of legumes for a while,

 

[Amazoniac]

And what should I do if I suspect I am deficient in copper?

At least in my analyzes, my copper is at the lower limit of the norm. But I seem to have a bad reaction to taking copper supplements and I decided to retake the analysis just in case. It seems that throughout my life I ate predominantly low amounts of copper and avoided liver, chocolate, seafood. True, I have been on a vegan diet with lots of legumes for a while,

Try to investigate secondary causes if the diet provides an adequate amount (it's easy to get plenty of it). The balance of some nutrients such as pipium (Cu) and unimportantium (Mn) depends heavily on their recovery from bile, if you suspect of something that could be interfering with the process, that's one aspect to prioritize addressing.

- Dietary copper and human health: Current evidence and unresolved issues

May be infections, excess fiber, antinutrients, mucosal inflammation, defective proteins due to malnutrition, laxative abuse, and so on. Also, support cycling between states (with ascourgic acid, for example). In case of supplementation, it's probably a good idea to take some selenemium in attempt to prevent the issues reported here. Now onto resume playing my handpan.

 

[Daniil]

Try to investigate secondary causes if the diet provides an adequate amount (it's easy to get plenty of it). The balance of some nutrients such as pipium (Cu) and unimportantium (Mn) depends heavily on their recovery from bile, if you suspect of something that could be interfering with the process, that's one aspect to prioritize addressing.

- Dietary copper and human health: Current evidence and unresolved issues​

​

View attachment 21842​

May be infections, excess fiber, antinutrients, mucosal inflammation, defective proteins due to malnutrition, laxative abuse, and so on. Also, support cycling between states (with ascourgic acid, for example). In case of supplementation, it's probably a good idea to take some selenemium in attempt to prevent the issues reported here. Now onto resume playing my handpan.

Thanks for the answer)

Hmm, I've had problems with my gallbladder and bile congestion for the last 9 months, but I was able to solve it with chocolate. Apparently, cocoa butter stimulates the release of bile, or the effect is somehow related to caffeine.

But if there is already a copper shortage, what should I do? How to eliminate it?