Dr Robert Morse Take On Nutrition - Similar To Ray Peat - Your Opinion

[Travis]

Ha, Carey Reams. I haven't heard anyone mention him on a blog before.

Even people with good intentions can be a bit myopic. I will listen to to any honest person over a shill any day. The bigger the industry and the more powerful the lobby [dairy, beef], the more the product needs to be scrutinized.

Fasting, cleansing, and raw veganism have long been used as a primary means or a secondary adjunct in alternative cancer therapy. The failure to explain how this works on a molecular level does not invalidate these approaches. Ray Peat says that that mice fed a fat-free diet are resistant to cancer.

 

[heartnhands]

Here is a video where he talks in detail. What do you guys think?
He seems on point.

Seems like a sincere person and willing to look in unique ways but totally NOT science based as far as I can see.

 

[Tarmander]

Tarmander, what are your thoughts on autophagy?

I don't really know a ton about it. I am speaking more towards the deeper philosophy that can be harmful.

I suspect you are right, when applied applied blindly, especially in circumstances of serious depletion. And the people most drawn to follow such practices might be the ones who find restriction easy or attractive - ie the ones who are most likely to already be suffering from depletion.

But there might still be some sense in figuring out how to support the removal of toxins and the byproducts of metabolism, along with all the other things needed for good health. Maybe this could be the key factor for some people?

Certainly being aware that we need some alkaline minerals in our diet seems important to me.

Supporting detox systems sounds pretty harmless, at least on its face, but in our times it usually comes with a deeper misunderstanding I have found. With all the garbage that gets put into food and the stuff we live around, in the past 20 years this belief about health through getting rid of these insults has arisen. At face value this seems like a smart idea, but like most ideas that have good intentions, it can be corrupted by ideas that have plagued us for centuries. Most of the detox mumbo jumbo looks very much like Christian self flagellation. Closer to salvation through pain. I have talked about it before, it's been kind of beat to death, I am sure you have read about it.

I just want to say, you can get to a healthy space and never think or entertain the idea that there is something bad in you that you need to get out. Focus on what feels good, gives energy, improves bio-markers/temps and mood, and you will be just fine.

 

[heartnhands]

I dont think his philosophy is like Peat at all. He sounds like most alternative medicine/health food store people...talks about detox, healing crises, getting the bad out so you can build up better. Just in the first 5 minutes he talks about some woman losing all her finger nails after starting to fast and eat raw fruit. He explained it as dumping the bad stuff so the good stuff could regrow. He has made the leap that the food is good, but the people are bad, and must then adapt to the food, because obviously the food is good.

These basic ideologies are dangerous. The key part of Peat that leads to the greatest shift in how you look at all this stuff, is that energy and structure are interdependent. Damaging your structure so that you can then rebuild that structure stronger just does not work. You get less energy, and weaker structure. When someone starts talking about detox and healing crises, turning your brain off will be the right move about 98% of the time.

Well said.

 

[Travis]

Don't fall for the Mason-Dixon Fallacy: an a priori assumption that everyone from The South is less intelligent than anyone from The North.

 

[tara]

Ha, Carey Reams. I haven't heard anyone mention him on a blog before.

There's a whole thread about him and his methods.:)

Don't fall for the Mason-Dixon Fallacy: an a priori assumption that everyone from The South is less intelligent than anyone from The North.

I did ask myself whether I was judging because of his communication style. (I'm not from the US, and I don't remember which accents come from which regions, but he's a farmer's boy, and that probably influences style too.) I don't think he's unintelligent, but I think he's not a trained teacher, and he throws out a lot of ideas as though they follow or are obvious, when the connections look quite far-fetched to me.
With protocols to aid lymph flow and kidney filtering as a hammer, everything looks like a problem of lymph flow and kidney filtering.

Seems like a sincere person and willing to look in unique ways but totally NOT science based as far as I can see.

Seems a bit inconsistent on this - and at least sometimes he urges people to not think, which is possibly his most fundamental contrast to Peat.

 

[tara]

Supporting detox systems sounds pretty harmless, at least on its face, but in our times it usually comes with a deeper misunderstanding I have found. With all the garbage that gets put into food and the stuff we live around, in the past 20 years this belief about health through getting rid of these insults has arisen. At face value this seems like a smart idea, but like most ideas that have good intentions, it can be corrupted by ideas that have plagued us for centuries. Most of the detox mumbo jumbo looks very much like Christian self flagellation. Closer to salvation through pain. I have talked about it before, it's been kind of beat to death, I am sure you have read about it.

Yeah, you make a good point. I recognise both the general cultural thread of there being virtue in self-denial and suffering ('cleanliness is next to godliness, and some people do the same by their religion', too), and that this particular set of theory instantiates it to some extent. I too am very suspicious when people claim that a 'healing crisis' is a good sign in itself that you are on the right track. Generally, it seems sensible to look for some more positive confirmation.

Some people seem to do something similar with their versions of 'peating' - making it extremely strict, about what's 'allowed' or 'not allowed', heavily overriding their appetites, and persisting with some protocol they or an advisor has deduced despite obvious signs of worsening health, and operating more on faith than reason. I don't think this is Peat's intention - I read him as trying to discourage this kind of approach.

I do think it's really worth paying attention to this hazard, especially if one is already significantly influenced in this direction by other forces (including by thoughts like 'no pain no gain', 'eating what I enjoy is sinful' (this one seems pretty ubiquitous round me), or habits of undereating and restriction, esp. anorexia, orthorexia etc, or suffering needlessly in other ways).

I don't think Morse's proposals are all harmless. I think anyone considering trying out any of his ideas had best remember (some of these are things I've said often enough to no doubt bore many here with):

• - You can't sustainably run a healthy metabolism on a chronic energy (fuel) deficit. Whatever else may be needed, you also need to overall be getting adequate calories over the long run. Which is more than the common public calorie counters would have you believe. Furthermore, if eating a lot of fruit raises your metabolism particularly (which it might in some cases), some people may need to eat even more calories than before to avoid catabolic stress. (Do the maths. Even a small sedentary post-menopausal woman might need somewhere around 6 kilos of fruit to avoid energy deficit if this is all she is eating (depending on the fruit - high-brix or calorie dense fruit could reduce this a bit, but not everyone fares well on large amounts of bananas or dates). A very physically active young male might need twice that. Many people would struggle to eat that much, even if they could source and afford it. So a short fruit fast might sometimes be useful, but a really long one is unlikely to be workable for most people. For anyone whose major health issues have their roots in chronic undereating (as I suspect quite lot of people here do), it is very unlikely that your health will be improved long-term by more restriction. For anyone with a history of anorexia etc, such an attempt could trigger life-threatening relapse.
• - You need to eat protein on a regular basis. Morse repeatedly asserts that you don't need protein. AIUI, this is definitely disproven. Possibly what he meant was something weaker, like that you don't need to eat large quantities of protein-dense foods like meat, eggs, pulses etc every day in order to avoid serious catabolism of organs. Such a claim might be true, at least for some people. Ketoacids in fruit (as in potatoes) probably allow for some nitrogen recycling, especially if you can get a wide variety, but you still need some actual protein intake too. Eating low amounts of protein for a short period of time might be OK to recover from a particular sickness, but probably not conducive to a sustainable long-term life-style.)
• - There are some nutrients that you cannot come by without animal foods: notably vit-B12, but if your system is hypothyroid, then active vit-A might be in there. There are some nutrients that are hard to come by adequate amounts of from fruit, or are hard to come by from plants without excess of anti-nutrients (eg I don't know - is there a way to get decent amounts of zinc from any fruit, for instance?)
• - While there are probably advantages to fresh ripe fruit, it is probably also true that some fruit is easier to digest cooked.
• - There is some disagreement about the human gut etc, and what it is best adapted to. My reading of this so far (open to further evidence) is that we have digestive features appropriate to omnivores - eg we have teeth designed for tearing meat as well as grinding and mashing plants, and gut length is short enough (and when in good health) strong enough to digest animal proteins. Also, there is some evidence pointing to our more recent brain developments coinciding with the learning to create and control fire, and cook food - allowing us to eat enough calories without having to spend all day grazing, and allowing us to use some of the additional energy to develop larger (hungrier) brains. These features have given our species survival advantages.
• - Morse refers to animals fasting to recover when they are well, and compares his diet to being like fasting for humans. AIUI, animals generally only fast for short periods - eg a day or two, not months or years (except if hibernating, maybe months, and then only out of scarcity and necessity).
• There are other causes of ill-health than a blocked lymphatic system.
• - It's generally easier on the system to make changes gradually and watch yourself for the effects. It is probably not useful (and may not be safe) to persist with something whose effects are generally bad or unenjoyable. I do think one can sometimes have difficult symptoms during recovery that just need to be tolerated - eg some pain and discomfort may be unavoidable during some kinds of chemical withdrawal, and some symptoms seem to be very common during recovery from semi-starvation diets. But if you are restricting any food group that has been part of the human diet for millenia, and your health is just getting worse by observable signs and symptoms, then you are probably doing yourself more harm than good, and shouldn't do it for long
• - Nobody knows everything about the human body and the permutations of it's workings. No-one else can know 100% what you personally need.
• - It's your body and your health. Your best bet is to keep learning and keep watching and keep thinking, and don't hand over responsibility to anyone, however confident, smart or knowlegable or convincing they may appear.
• 
  
• - Don't believe everything you think either. There are some things you can't figure out consciously - your appetite is an important part of your guidance system, and overriding can sometimes lead to trouble.
• 
  
• - There isn't anything inherently morally good in restricting food intake unless by doing so you are realistically improving someone else's chances and wellbeing (and you are still taking your own needs into account too).

All that said, and notwithstanding the risks of denial-based ideology, Morse probably does know some useful things, his protocols might well be useful sometimes (in the short-term), and he probably has helped some people recover their health. Even if the bathwater is dirty, no need to throw out the baby.

 

[tara]

I just want to say, you can get to a healthy space and never think or entertain the idea that there is something bad in you that you need to get out. Focus on what feels good, gives energy, improves bio-markers/temps and mood, and you will be just fine.

I really like this idea, and its probably workable for most people most of the time.
It's generally more useful to focus on what you want/intend rather on what you are trying to avoid or get rid of.

But sometimes it doesn't work, because sometimes short-term gain comes at long-term cost. Occasionally, it might be really useful to think about how to reduce the burden of excess protein breakdown products, or whether there's a way to safely remove some of the heavy metal burden, or whether gluten or dairy or some other intolerance or bacterial or fungal overgrowth is causing too much of a problem. I do think there is sometimes to much focus on these.

 

[Tarmander]

Yeah, you make a good point. I recognise both the general cultural thread of there being virtue in self-denial and suffering ('cleanliness is next to godliness, and some people do the same by their religion', too), and that this particular set of theory instantiates it to some extent. I too am very suspicious when people claim that a 'healing crisis' is a good sign in itself that you are on the right track. Generally, it seems sensible to look for some more positive confirmation.

Some people seem to do something similar with their versions of 'peating' - making it extremely strict, about what's 'allowed' or 'not allowed', heavily overriding their appetites, and persisting with some protocol they or an advisor has deduced despite obvious signs of worsening health, and operating more on faith than reason. I don't think this is Peat's intention - I read him as trying to discourage this kind of approach.

I do think it's really worth paying attention to this hazard, especially if one is already significantly influenced in this direction by other forces (including by thoughts like 'no pain no gain', 'eating what I enjoy is sinful' (this one seems pretty ubiquitous round me), or habits of undereating and restriction, esp. anorexia, orthorexia etc, or suffering needlessly in other ways).

I don't think Morse's proposals are all harmless. I think anyone considering trying out any of his ideas had best remember (some of these are things I've said often enough to no doubt bore many here with):

• - You can't sustainably run a healthy metabolism on a chronic energy (fuel) deficit. Whatever else may be needed, you also need to overall be getting adequate calories over the long run. Which is more than the common public calorie counters would have you believe. Furthermore, if eating a lot of fruit raises your metabolism particularly (which it might in some cases), some people may need to eat even more calories than before to avoid catabolic stress. (Do the maths. Even a small sedentary post-menopausal woman might need somewhere around 6 kilos of fruit to avoid energy deficit if this is all she is eating (depending on the fruit - high-brix or calorie dense fruit could reduce this a bit, but not everyone fares well on large amounts of bananas or dates). A very physically active young male might need twice that. Many people would struggle to eat that much, even if they could source and afford it. So a short fruit fast might sometimes be useful, but a really long one is unlikely to be workable for most people. For anyone whose major health issues have their roots in chronic undereating (as I suspect quite lot of people here do), it is very unlikely that your health will be improved long-term by more restriction. For anyone with a history of anorexia etc, such an attempt could trigger life-threatening relapse.
• - You need to eat protein on a regular basis. Morse repeatedly asserts that you don't need protein. AIUI, this is definitely disproven. Possibly what he meant was something weaker, like that you don't need to eat large quantities of protein-dense foods like meat, eggs, pulses etc every day in order to avoid serious catabolism of organs. Such a claim might be true, at least for some people. Ketoacids in fruit (as in potatoes) probably allow for some nitrogen recycling, especially if you can get a wide variety, but you still need some actual protein intake too. Eating low amounts of protein for a short period of time might be OK to recover from a particular sickness, but probably not conducive to a sustainable long-term life-style.)
• - There are some nutrients that you cannot come by without animal foods: notably vit-B12, but if your system is hypothyroid, then active vit-A might be in there. There are some nutrients that are hard to come by adequate amounts of from fruit, or are hard to come by from plants without excess of anti-nutrients (eg I don't know - is there a way to get decent amounts of zinc from any fruit, for instance?)
• - While there are probably advantages to fresh ripe fruit, it is probably also true that some fruit is easier to digest cooked.
• - There is some disagreement about the human gut etc, and what it is best adapted to. My reading of this so far (open to further evidence) is that we have digestive features appropriate to omnivores - eg we have teeth designed for tearing meat as well as grinding and mashing plants, and gut length is short enough (and when in good health) strong enough to digest animal proteins. Also, there is some evidence pointing to our more recent brain developments coinciding with the learning to create and control fire, and cook food - allowing us to eat enough calories without having to spend all day grazing, and allowing us to use some of the additional energy to develop larger (hungrier) brains. These features have given our species survival advantages.
• - Morse refers to animals fasting to recover when they are well, and compares his diet to being like fasting for humans. AIUI, animals generally only fast for short periods - eg a day or two, not months or years (except if hibernating, maybe months, and then only out of scarcity and necessity).
• There are other causes of ill-health than a blocked lymphatic system.
• - It's generally easier on the system to make changes gradually and watch yourself for the effects. It is probably not useful (and may not be safe) to persist with something whose effects are generally bad or unenjoyable. I do think one can sometimes have difficult symptoms during recovery that just need to be tolerated - eg some pain and discomfort may be unavoidable during some kinds of chemical withdrawal, and some symptoms seem to be very common during recovery from semi-starvation diets. But if you are restricting any food group that has been part of the human diet for millenia, and your health is just getting worse by observable signs and symptoms, then you are probably doing yourself more harm than good, and shouldn't do it for long
• - Nobody knows everything about the human body and the permutations of it's workings. No-one else can know 100% what you personally need.
• - It's your body and your health. Your best bet is to keep learning and keep watching and keep thinking, and don't hand over responsibility to anyone, however confident, smart or knowlegable or convincing they may appear.
• 
  
• - Don't believe everything you think either. There are some things you can't figure out consciously - your appetite is an important part of your guidance system, and overriding can sometimes lead to trouble.
• 
  
• - There isn't anything inherently morally good in restricting food intake unless by doing so you are realistically improving someone else's chances and wellbeing (and you are still taking your own needs into account too).

All that said, and notwithstanding the risks of denial-based ideology, Morse probably does know some useful things, his protocols might well be useful sometimes (in the short-term), and he probably has helped some people recover their health. Even if the bathwater is dirty, no need to throw out the baby.

Very nice write up, some great points

Some people seem to do something similar with their versions of 'peating' - making it extremely strict, about what's 'allowed' or 'not allowed', heavily overriding their appetites, and persisting with some protocol they or an advisor has deduced despite obvious signs of worsening health, and operating more on faith than reason. I don't think this is Peat's intention - I read him as trying to discourage this kind of approach.

I made these mistakes. With how we are taught the body works, it is hard not to turn things into a protocol despite being told that this is not a protocol. One for me was orange juice. I drank it for about a year, and it just always caused bloating for me. I do not think I can get very high quality OJ, or the oxalate levels are too high, or something else. I switched to lemonade and things are much better. I drank OJ because I believed it was good, and I would adapt to it. Reasonable timelines are very helpful. Coffee worked great on a reasonable time line. I knew going in it would be hell for awhile, I pushed through, and the results match what I have read. Maybe I will wake up one day and that'll be different.

I really like this idea, and its probably workable for most people most of the time.
It's generally more useful to focus on what you want/intend rather on what you are trying to avoid or get rid of.

But sometimes it doesn't work, because sometimes short-term gain comes at long-term cost. Occasionally, it might be really useful to think about how to reduce the burden of excess protein breakdown products, or whether there's a way to safely remove some of the heavy metal burden, or whether gluten or dairy or some other intolerance or bacterial or fungal overgrowth is causing too much of a problem. I do think there is sometimes to much focus on these.

Yeah the risk is that somehow you are doing something estrogenic or stressful and you will trick yourself into doing something that makes you feel good, but weakens you long term. I would say that in my experience, the "feels good now but it'll give you cancer/diabetes/whatever later" is a key motivating factor for many people interested in alternative medicine. At least the people focusing on health and not on performance.

I would guess that unless you are doing something like cocaine, most of the things you do that feel great short term and wreck you long term are going to be better then detoxing. Even eating PUFA regularly is probably better then detoxing. I would love to be wrong. I would love a system that comes out that really has great long term results that help people live more powerful virtuous lives. But instead we see people become detox slaves, mindlessly adhering to their protocol in hopes that it'll pay off one day.

I have personal experience with that, so when I see guys like this, I just think "run." It may have some benefits, but you will not be able to think for yourself. The biggest thing I have found happens after "cleansing" is confusion. People are really not sure if they feel better or worse. Some parts feel better, but something is also off from the norm. If there is some health guru around, they will tell you "you are doing better!" You might think, "well I do feel better in some ways, so maybe I am doing better. Plus there are all these other people around talking about how much better they feel and everyone seems really excited...I want to be apart of that."

You know isn't it interesting how often "spiritual retreats" start with fasts and veggies and all that? Almost like, without putting you into a state of confusion, there is no way to get their message across. They have to weaken you to be receptive to their ideas, which usually all sound great like "peace, love, responsibility." Who doesn't want those?

Then, in swoops Peat. Structure and Energy are interdependent on all levels....Followed to its logical conclusion, there is absolutely NO way that lowering your energy will improve your structure. All the movies with the montage of the guy going through stress and training to get the trophy at the end, all the detox and fasting stories about the people more connected to the earth and how vibrant their life is now. Just dump it. These are stories of people enjoying their own indoctrination. These are experiences where you take the collar and put it on yourself and call it freedom because you clinched the lock.

A lie (weaken yourself) to obtain a good (be cleaner and stronger and healthier) is always just a lie first.

If you always stick with Peat, and don't weaken yourself, you will be alright. Thanks for responding Tara, it is always fun to talk with you. I enjoy throwing these ideas around.

 

[Regina]

Very nice write up, some great points



I made these mistakes. With how we are taught the body works, it is hard not to turn things into a protocol despite being told that this is not a protocol. One for me was orange juice. I drank it for about a year, and it just always caused bloating for me. I do not think I can get very high quality OJ, or the oxalate levels are too high, or something else. I switched to lemonade and things are much better. I drank OJ because I believed it was good, and I would adapt to it. Reasonable timelines are very helpful. Coffee worked great on a reasonable time line. I knew going in it would be hell for awhile, I pushed through, and the results match what I have read. Maybe I will wake up one day and that'll be different.



Yeah the risk is that somehow you are doing something estrogenic or stressful and you will trick yourself into doing something that makes you feel good, but weakens you long term. I would say that in my experience, the "feels good now but it'll give you cancer/diabetes/whatever later" is a key motivating factor for many people interested in alternative medicine. At least the people focusing on health and not on performance.

I would guess that unless you are doing something like cocaine, most of the things you do that feel great short term and wreck you long term are going to be better then detoxing. Even eating PUFA regularly is probably better then detoxing. I would love to be wrong. I would love a system that comes out that really has great long term results that help people live more powerful virtuous lives. But instead we see people become detox slaves, mindlessly adhering to their protocol in hopes that it'll pay off one day.

I have personal experience with that, so when I see guys like this, I just think "run." It may have some benefits, but you will not be able to think for yourself. The biggest thing I have found happens after "cleansing" is confusion. People are really not sure if they feel better or worse. Some parts feel better, but something is also off from the norm. If there is some health guru around, they will tell you "you are doing better!" You might think, "well I do feel better in some ways, so maybe I am doing better. Plus there are all these other people around talking about how much better they feel and everyone seems really excited...I want to be apart of that."

You know isn't it interesting how often "spiritual retreats" start with fasts and veggies and all that? Almost like, without putting you into a state of confusion, there is no way to get their message across. They have to weaken you to be receptive to their ideas, which usually all sound great like "peace, love, responsibility." Who doesn't want those?

Then, in swoops Peat. Structure and Energy are interdependent on all levels....Followed to its logical conclusion, there is absolutely NO way that lowering your energy will improve your structure. All the movies with the montage of the guy going through stress and training to get the trophy at the end, all the detox and fasting stories about the people more connected to the earth and how vibrant their life is now. Just dump it. These are stories of people enjoying their own indoctrination. These are experiences where you take the collar and put it on yourself and call it freedom because you clinched the lock.

A lie (weaken yourself) to obtain a good (be cleaner and stronger and healthier) is always just a lie first.

If you always stick with Peat, and don't weaken yourself, you will be alright. Thanks for responding Tara, it is always fun to talk with you. I enjoy throwing these ideas around.

Tara! Tarmander! What a joy being a fly on the wall while you two converse. Truly excellent insights from both of you.

 

[michael94]

Then, in swoops Peat. Structure and Energy are interdependent on all levels....Followed to its logical conclusion, there is absolutely NO way that lowering your energy will improve your structure.

You are right that "detoxing" has become a comically abused buzzword and marketing gimmick...but this statement is an oversimplification. Energy is much more dependent on structure than the other way around. Like say you have a mild excess of mercury and a congested liver, your body will allow candida to overgrow as a protective mechanism and you will constantly be swimming in acetaldehyde. And naturally fatigued because your body lowers energy to protect it's structure. This is why moderate-high doses of caffeine, amphetamines, LSD etc. can have a nasty come down effect in unhealthy people. Because you artificially raise energy and the structure suffers for it, so your body tells you to don't f***ing do that anymore Lol.

The main problems with fasting is the one-size fits all approach. As a principle fasting is very good but if your liver/intestines can't keep up then you will suffer so it has to be done intelligently on a case to case basis. For example those mercury fillings ( forget what theyre called ) if not removed in the correct manner can kill someone. Noble metals are an important part of the puzzle, also, based on the limited research I've done.

 

[michael94]

Another example is h-pylori infections being related to respiratory/liver issues. H pylori will be allowed to go wild and cause gastritis/ulcer because it has a protective effect on asthma and limits your desire to eat so liver isn't burdened any further.

 

[Tarmander]

You are right that "detoxing" has become a comically abused buzzword and marketing gimmick...but this statement is an oversimplification. Energy is much more dependent on structure than the other way around. Like say you have a mild excess of mercury and a congested liver, your body will allow candida to overgrow as a protective mechanism and you will constantly be swimming in acetaldehyde. And naturally fatigued because your body lowers energy to protect it's structure. This is why moderate-high doses of caffeine, amphetamines, LSD etc. can have a nasty come down effect in unhealthy people. Because you artificially raise energy and the structure suffers for it, so your body tells you to don't f***ing do that anymore Lol.

The main problems with fasting is the one-size fits all approach. As a principle fasting is very good but if your liver/intestines can't keep up then you will suffer so it has to be done intelligently on a case to case basis. For example those mercury fillings ( forget what they're called ) if not removed in the correct manner can kill someone. Noble metals are an important part of the puzzle, also, based on the limited research I've done.

All principles have to be grounded in reality. I could easily say energy strengthens and maintains structure, therefore, gripping power-lines to increase my energy should make my structure super powerful! An extreme example just to outline a point. Coffee is another good example. You could easily say that the first month or two of drinking coffee is a detox period, and after that your health increases, so it was a case where lowering energy improves structure. The thing is, there is an amazing amount of evidence in studies and in anecdotal reports of people becoming more healthy from drinking coffee long term. There is no belief needed. You do not have to lean on principles to see that in action, just as I do not have to lean on principles to not grip said power-lines.

To use your example, mercury poisoning that lowers energy, increases candida, etc. No one would deny that exposure to mercury is harmful, and that amalgam fillings could contribute to mercury poisoning (although some dentists would foolishly argue with you). The jump comes when that mercury is now in your body, and therefore you must detox it out.

Now what do you do? The only real detox protocol that I have seen have some success is Cutler's, and even if you are able to do ALA ever 3 hours, there is not much evidence that it works. I have seen people on that protocol for years and get absolutely no where and very few people with positive stories. So you have been exposed to mercury, Cutler's program doesn't seem super reliable, you have candida, where do you go? Maybe you know something I do not about getting mercury out, in which case I would love to learn more and hear it. But I am guessing that at this point, you have to make a jump to principles because reality is not offering you much. At that point you start listening to people like Dr Wilson and his hair analysis who says it could take 5, 10, maybe 15 years to get all the mercury out. Or maybe Dr. Morse here has a solution and he has lots of people who he has helped, in which case I am off base and there is a reason to listen to this guy. I doubt it because of my experience, but I could be wrong.

What I am saying is, when you have to make that jump to belief, that jump to principles, don't jump to hurting yourself to help yourself. Do not buy into healing crises and getting the bad out and it'll be okay one day if you push through. It is literally the oldest game in the book to convince you not to live your life to the fullest.

Even here on the forums it occurs with the "4 years for PUFA depletion." That might be true, but it is not an excuse to be passive. Don't just grab the OJ and milk, put your head down, and come up in four years to see if it worked. Actively do experiments, actively try things out in specific time lines, and use Peat's principles to guide you. It is kind of over simplistic, but it spawns complexity.

 

[michael94]

Dr wilson looks like crap lol and his balancing system does not work.

Yes you make some good points and it's exactly why people need to spend less time listening to advice on the internet for health problems. Too much reading not enough thinking. One can make an extremely thorough case for something being good and a large amount of people will still hurt themselves with that advice because they stop listening to their body. Like if you wanted to drive somewhere it would be a bad idea to try and floor it in a straight line. You need to drive on the roads to avoid obstacles, not crash into cars, adjust speed at different times, etc. But you still need some help with directions or you will get lost! Mapquest doesn't tell you the exact time to turn your wheel nor when to take foot off the gas.

 

[charlie]

@Amazoniac @Jennifer

 

[charlie]

What is your natural way of fighting it?

Curious as well

Fruits, berries, and melons. And getting my kidneys filtering.

 

[Jennifer]

@Amazoniac @Jennifer

I'm not sure what I can add to the discussion. Tarmander and I have discussed Dr. Morse and the concept of detox in a thread he started a while back. I think it was in regards to the liver and kidneys, but I'm not positive.

I often think the word detox rubs some people the wrong way because of previous bad experiences with certain protocols promoted as detoxifying and/or the way some have chosen to describe it — I've seen some descriptions that make it out to be like that of exorcising demons. If that's how they choose to see it, fine, but I just see it as something our bodies are designed to do, nothing woo about it. Something as simple, and complex, as breathing, urinating, defecating, sweating, eyes watering, nose running, ears running etc. are detox.

Our tissues/systems of detoxification can be strengthened, but it can be highly individual based on our own tissue strengths and weaknesses. For example, Charlie can eat greens and filter (sediment/metabolic waste in urine), while I stop filtering entirely when consuming them. And while some can increase their salt intake without a hitch, it takes me almost two weeks for the swelling to go down when upping salt. Charlie, and those who handle salt fine, likely have healthier kidneys and adrenals than me. I can easily tell this based on blood pressure alone, just like we can easily tell the health of our thyroid based on our temp (including that of our extremities). Again, nothing woo about it.

 

[Tarmander]

Fruits, berries, and melons. And getting my kidneys filtering.

Are you on the Robert Morse train now?

 

[charlie]

Are you on the Robert Morse train now?

I am on the charlie train. But if you must label it I am on a modified PeatMorse at the moment as I continue to Perceive, Think, Act.

Fruits, berries, melons, greens(collards in a homemade vegetable broth), egg yolks, some cooked veggies in soups(thanks @Jennifer for the awesome recipes!), some herbs, and will continue to keep adding and testing foods to see what interferes with my kidney filtering. Going to test raw goat milk in the future.

Once my kidneys were filtering I was amazed at the crud that starts coming out. It is so stinky, and full of sediment, mucus strings and acidic metabolic waste(according to Morse). I just do not see how this could be ignored, if eating a certain way produces this much waste from my kidneys, I had to look into it. And from my initial observations and experiences I think Morse is onto something regarding the kidney filtration. The amount of people healing in the community is incredible, I have been watching it for many months. I could not ignore it and had to investigate.

 

[Tarmander]

I am on the charlie train. But if you must label it I am on a modified PeatMorse at the moment as I continue to Perceive, Think, Act.

Fruits, berries, melons, greens(collards in a homemade vegetable broth), egg yolks, some cooked veggies in soups(thanks @Jennifer for the awesome recipes!), some herbs, and will continue to keep adding and testing foods to see what interferes with my kidney filtering. Going to test raw goat milk in the future.

Once my kidneys were filtering I was amazed at the crud that starts coming out. It is so stinky, and full of sediment, mucus strings and acidic metabolic waste(according to Morse). I just do not see how this could be ignored, if eating a certain way produces this much waste from my kidneys, I had to look into it. And from my initial observations and experiences I think Morse is onto something regarding the kidney filtration. The amount of people healing in the community is incredible, I have been watching it for many months. I could not ignore it and had to investigate.

Very cool, let me know how it goes.

Was there any one thing that finally got your kidneys filtering?