Vegetarians -- are they harming themselves?

milk_lover

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"I started thinking about what I had read about Ray Peat and his diet, and wanted to clarify my take on him. I read that he believes in eating a lot of gelatin and eats gummy bears; something I would not touch because I am vegetarian and intolerant, so they are way off limits and hardly healthful. And he doesn’t believe in eating most vegetables because of the way they protect themselves in nature, producing chemicals that are toxic to what would eat them. So he’s not anyone I would really take advice from. But even those folks we wouldn’t necessarily let advise us have a good idea here and there, and one carrot a day is so innocuous I figure what if he actually does know something here, so that’s why I’ve brought this information to light on my blog. But trust me, I’m not going to use him as a viable source of information from now on!"

http://tinyurl.com/of4h7ew It's a site about a woman having histamine issues. She is a hard-core vegetarian and anti sugar. I do not think I know more than her, nor do I think she knows more than me.

I've noticed throughout the years that vegetarians can be so close minded and defensive. Why do people, especially women, eat food that they do not naturally enjoy and avoid food that they genuinely enjoy because some authority told them this is healthy and that is unhealthy? Why aren't we eating like children and quit being sophisticated and mature about food? I have a feeling if the world has no nutrition "experts", people would be more healthy.
 

Nicholas

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do you believe just eating whatever you're inspired to eat is healthiest?
 
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It doesn’t make sense for you to post this in the “Ray Peat Discussion” section because this person is "disagreeing" with Peat so it should be in the debate section.

This person is misinformed. Peat does not believe in “eating a lot of gummy bears.” But he does believe in using a form a gelatin that works best with you.

She says “he doesn’t believe in eating most vegetables because of the way they protect themselves in nature, producing chemicals that are toxic to what would eat them.”

Well, besides leafy greens for minerals/vit. K, potatoes, and carrots, there are no other worthy "vegetables." This is why starchy tubers should not be called “vegetables” and should be in their own category. They are completely different than sometinhg like eggplant or some other very low calorie/nutrient vegetable. Leafy greens are also unique in that they are very simple, they don’t have a bunch of weird stuff on them like brussel sprouts or artichoke does. You can’t get a lot of energy from “veggies,” but you can get a lot of energy from starchy tubers.

But ironically, Peat's daily diet is very "vegetarian:"

From one year ago - "The details vary slightly according to what's available. Daily, milk, fruit (mainly orange juice), eggs, butter, cheese, and coffee. As available, liver, shrimp, squid, oysters, cod, sole, ox-tail soup, chicharrones (puffed pork rind), sapotas, pawpaws, cherimoyas, guanabanas, guavas, carrots, bamboo shoots, small turnips, corundas." - RP

So Ray's daily diet is vegetarian and "as available" diet pescetarian. He did say he ate ribs for dinner once on a radio show and one of his articles on his site says that fresh grass fed beef is the best choice if you are going to eat beef. But his own personal diet is minimal/occasioanl beef. With Ray's views on muscle meats, this should be obvious.

How is a daily diet of "milk, fruit, eggs, butter, cheese, and coffee" not vegetarian?

The occasional liver, oxtail, and pork rinds, are, in fact, occasional. And those are unique foods. They're not muscle meats.

The traditional term vegetarian was originally about one who consumes a diet based on milk, cheese, and fruit. Not a "vegetable" eater.

The context here is that someone like Ray sees the intelligence in not eating meat as in muscle meat, everyday, as opposed to the masses who think that one must eat muscle meats 3 times a day. They are inflammatory, contain too much iron, and cause too many problems when over consumed. Ray has said that muscle meats "turn off the thyroid gland."

That's not to say they offer nothing. One may very well need the iron from red meat. And I personally am concerned with taurine for eye health, which is why I eat yellowfin tuna, beef, and bison occasionally, like a supplement.
 

Nicholas

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and at the same time, amino acids and b-vitamins are needed from the diet sometimes more than occasionally for some people. a typical Peat diet low in muscle meats could create amino acid or b-vitamin issues. People who drink a lot of milk would be getting plenty of Tryptophan, thus i limit my milk consumption just like i limit my meat consumption. Eating meat every day doesn't have to be inflammatory and even Ray helps to support this. Glycine-rich broths can offset some effects. Chicken is lower in iron. Scallops & shrimp are great sources of Glycine (and Taurine). Pork is a great source of Thiamine, where the typical Peat diet would be low in Thiamine compared to the fortified grain-eating population.
I feel seriously defunct if i don't get meat or egg proteins with every meal.
every food is a supplement in that it has to be used correctly.
muscle meats turning "off the thyroid gland" is a bit far-fetched or too simplistic....as there are so many vitamins and amino acids in muscle meats which enable the thyroid to do its job.
 

Nicholas

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westside - your diet, which last i heard was high in potatoes and other starches would decrease much of the need for muscle meats
 

Giraffe

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Nicholas said:
post 98534 Pork is a great source of Thiamine, where the typical Peat diet would be low in Thiamine compared to the fortified grain-eating population.

Bioavailability of thiamine in cow milk and curd powders using rat bioassay

The present data further indicated that thiamine from milk and curd was better utiIized than pure thiamine at the sub-optimal oral dosage. The absence of natural inhibitors of thiamine uptake in milk in contrast to wheat as reported by Ranhotra et al (1985) underlined the significance of milk and its products as sources of dietary thiamine.
https://www.raypeatforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7106
 
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Nicholas

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Giraffe said:
post 98536
Nicholas said:
post 98534 Pork is a great source of Thiamine, where the typical Peat diet would be low in Thiamine compared to the fortified grain-eating population.

Bioavailability of thiamine in cow milk and curd powders using rat bioassay

The present data further indicated that thiamine from milk and curd was better utiIized than pure thiamine at the sub-optimal oral dosage. The absence of natural inhibitors of thiamine uptake in milk in contrast to wheat as reported by Ranhotra et al (1985) underlined the significance of milk and its products as sources of dietary thiamine.
viewtopic.php?t=7106

cool
 
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milk_lover

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Nicholas, sometimes when I eat things that are against Peat ideas I feel better.. so yeah in general it's good to follow your cravings. If something was fried in vegetable oil and you crave it, fry it in tasteless coconut oil and eat it. You can make unhealthy things healthy.

Westside, sorry you're right, I should've posted it in the debate section. Vegetarians nowadays do not consume the things you mentioned a lot--eggs, milk, butter, cheese etc... They think of them as occasional food let's not fool ourselves.. If they consume them in a regular basis, then there is no point in calling them "vegetarians" because nothing in that list is vegetarian at all.. Rather, they eat a lot of vegetables and fruits..
 

Daimyo

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Hmm... I am vegetarian most of the time, as I eat a lot of fruit and I eat meat usually once a day. I'm also vegan in between the meals and during the night as I do not consume animal products during that time - fresh and dried fruit as snacks...
 

schultz

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Nicholas said:
People who drink a lot of milk would be getting plenty of Tryptophan, thus i limit my milk consumption just like i limit my meat consumption

Ray seems to think that the calcium (and possibly other things) in milk helps the tryptophan get converted to niacin. I'm this case the tryptophan in milk wouldn't be as problematic. I would consider limiting milk to be anti-Peat in this case. The man himself drank a gallon a day, on average, for 35 years. Obviously he doesn't seem to think the tryptophan is much of an issue. Considering how smart he is and how much research he has done (his entire life) I think I will trust him on that.
 

Giraffe

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schultz said:
post 98582
Nicholas said:
People who drink a lot of milk would be getting plenty of Tryptophan, thus i limit my milk consumption just like i limit my meat consumption

Ray seems to think that the calcium (and possibly other things) in milk helps the tryptophan get converted to niacin. I'm this case the tryptophan in milk wouldn't be as problematic. I would consider limiting milk to be anti-Peat in this case. The man himself drank a gallon a day, on average, for 35 years. Obviously he doesn't seem to think the tryptophan is much of an issue. Considering how smart he is and how much research he has done (his entire life) I think I will trust him on that.
Could the tryptophan in milk be problematic for people with inadequate thyroid function? Hypothyroid people with no access to thyroid meds?
 
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answersfound

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schultz said:
Nicholas said:
People who drink a lot of milk would be getting plenty of Tryptophan, thus i limit my milk consumption just like i limit my meat consumption

Ray seems to think that the calcium (and possibly other things) in milk helps the tryptophan get converted to niacin. I'm this case the tryptophan in milk wouldn't be as problematic. I would consider limiting milk to be anti-Peat in this case. The man himself drank a gallon a day, on average, for 35 years. Obviously he doesn't seem to think the tryptophan is much of an issue. Considering how smart he is and how much research he has done (his entire life) I think I will trust him on that.

+1 x1000000009! Stop limiting milk consumption!
 

Nicholas

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schultz said:
Nicholas said:
People who drink a lot of milk would be getting plenty of Tryptophan, thus i limit my milk consumption just like i limit my meat consumption

Ray seems to think that the calcium (and possibly other things) in milk helps the tryptophan get converted to niacin. I'm this case the tryptophan in milk wouldn't be as problematic. I would consider limiting milk to be anti-Peat in this case. The man himself drank a gallon a day, on average, for 35 years. Obviously he doesn't seem to think the tryptophan is much of an issue. Considering how smart he is and how much research he has done (his entire life) I think I will trust him on that.

yeah, i've heard this too - but it seems important to consider nonetheless. The idea that limiting milk to be anti-Peat is absurd. Saying that milk is inherently bad for the body would be anti-Peat. But then again, that idea would also be anti-science. Peat is not a nutritionist or a practitioner. He has not outlined how people should eat. Having a peatarian diet is merely about understanding food and how it affects the cell.
 

XPlus

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Giraffe said:
Could the tryptophan in milk be problematic for people with inadequate thyroid function? Hypothyroid people with no access to thyroid meds?

Things like eggs contain cysteine as well as methionine, and tomatoes contain serotonin. It'd be wiser to look at the aggregate effect of consuming these foods, including temp, pulse, digestion and mood, rather than the effect of a certain nutrients they contain.
If milk happens to make the symptoms of a hypothyroid person worse, it isn't a good idea to keep pushing in the diet for too long.

Here's a RP quote (by 4PS) regarding tryptophan in milk:

RP said:
Regarding milk and its tryptophan content, The calcium helps to keep the metabolic rate high, and the other nutrients help to steer tryptophan away from the serotonin path.
 
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milk_lover

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Giraffe said:
post 98584 Could the tryptophan in milk be problematic for people with inadequate thyroid function? Hypothyroid people with no access to thyroid meds?

I had some issues with milk before until I started supplementing magnesium oil. I could tolerate it much better and it actually makes me warm and in a good mood. Didn't Ray say if your diet does not provide enough niacin (i.e., restricting meat), then the tryptophan from milk gets converted to niacin not to serotonin?
 
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Giraffe

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I adore all kinds of dairy products (preferably combined with fruits), but I don't like plain milk. Half of the liquid in my coffee is milk, but otherwise I seldom drink any. I wonder if this is to do with tryptophan.

Ray Peat often stresses the importance of establishing adequate thyroid function. He wrote...

TSH, temperature, pulse rate, and other indicators in hypothyroidism

Over a period of several years, I never saw a person whose TSH was over 2 microIU/ml who was comfortably healthy, and I formed the impression that the normal, or healthy, quantity was probably something less than 1.0.
... but we are told by doctors that our TSH is "normal". Up to 4.0 is "normal" and thyroid meds are prescription drugs in some countries.

milk_lover said:
post 98592 Didn't Ray say if your diet does not provide enough niacin (i.e., restricting meat), then the tryptophan from milk gets converted to niacin not to serotonin?
Tryptophan can be converted to niacinamide. This requires vitamin B6.

Does is also require good thyroid function?
 
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Nicholas

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you can't establish good thyroid function in isolation without also establishing better function overall. the first step to making any improvement in function is to regulate blood sugar. It's never about optimal numbers in the beginning of healing, it's about consistent numbers (which are an attribute of balance). The more balance there is, the more optimal the numbers become.
 

Lin

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Didn't Ray say if your diet does not provide enough niacin (i.e., restricting meat), then the tryptophan from milk gets converted to niacin not to serotonin?

Would this mean that supplementing niacinamide would cause the tryptophan to be converted to serotonin instead of niacin?
 

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