What gives them the right!?

[bornamachine]

Ok, something that has been on my mind lately.

I've come across a certain subject several times now, that being Japanese camp 731.

Ok... In the big scheme of things, I wish I never read about it, ever.

Idk how you guys are or were, but when I was a kid I loved reading, my imagination would be on point, a story read would be better, way better, than any cartoon I could watch as a kid.

My imagination probably is not as vivid as I used to be, but that being said, after reading those accounts, feeling sick, feeling like I went through everything those saints in there endured, feeling depressed for 3 days, overcomig it, I started thinking...

What gives people, the right, today, right now! To experiment on animals?

The horrors that those poor people endured in 731 were unspeakable, yet, today millions of animals are sitting in cages, cut up, injected, dissected, organ removal, all kind of sadistic operations, and we are not talking about some rodents or frogs, and even then, what gives you a right outside of killing a lab rat to attach a human ear to it, or to violate it in any way outside of just killing it just letting it live?
We are talking intelligent dogs, pigs, goats, chimps, etc, etc

Just something that has been on my mind lately

I'm all for humane killing and eating of animals, treating an animal with the respect it deserves and using every part of it as much as possible with a thankful attitude, not this!

It just seems like this is completely brushed under the rug and overshadowed by fringe groups like PETA which everyone associates with "don't hurt ANY animal in any way!"

Just thought I'd vent, even though there is not much we can do to change it.

 

[redsun]

Ok, something that has been on my mind lately.

I've come across a certain subject several times now, that being Japanese camp 731.

Ok... In the big scheme of things, I wish I never read about it, ever.

Idk how you guys are or were, but when I was a kid I loved reading, my imagination would be on point, a story read would be better, way better, than any cartoon I could watch as a kid.

My imagination probably is not as vivid as I used to be, but that being said, after reading those accounts, feeling sick, feeling like I went through everything those saints in there endured, feeling depressed for 3 days, overcomig it, I started thinking...

What gives people, the right, today, right now! To experiment on animals?

The horrors that those poor people endured in 731 were unspeakable, yet, today millions of animals are sitting in cages, cut up, injected, dissected, organ removal, all kind of sadistic operations, and we are not talking about some rodents or frogs, and even then, what gives you a right outside of killing a lab rat to attach a human ear to it, or to violate it in any way outside of just killing it just letting it live?
We are talking intelligent dogs, pigs, goats, chimps, etc, etc

Just something that has been on my mind lately

I'm all for humane killing and eating of animals, treating an animal with the respect it deserves and using every part of it as much as possible with a thankful attitude, not this!

It just seems like this is completely brushed under the rug and overshadowed by fringe groups like PETA which everyone associates with "don't hurt ANY animal in any way!"

Just thought I'd vent, even though there is not much we can do to change it.

Experimenting on animals is a net positive to humanity. How do you think we even get to human drug trials? There needs to be rigorous testing of safety of potential drugs using lab animals before any human could even possibly take them. Otherwise humans volunteering in trials to determine drug safety could be potentially signing up for certain death.

In a perfect world, we would never need to use lab animals because humans would never get sick in the first place. But thats not our reality. No one can ever change this but why would you even want to change it since the only alternative is to make humans the lab rats.

 

[bornamachine]

@redsun I heard they had a whole lab here locally at the hospital full of beagles, the dogs, they were trying to "discover a new drug to cure cancer" and these animals were put through all kinds of tests, radiation, etc, they were making too much noise howling and barking that they moved the whole lab so the patients would not be disturbed, they were close enough to hear.

I get your point redsun, and if it were a matter of them testing a certain something on let's say a human baby or a puppy, of course I would say use the puppy

But these even dogs in there, are going through unimaginable horrors, to ultimately die an undigbified death, for what? For a "cure" that must be found, c'mon, even, even if that were the case, what gives these people in this particular case the right to torture thousands of beagle puppies and dogs for a "cancer cure" which is complete horse sh*t, it's all about $$$.

Also, the point to all this is this, that, given the opportunity, you and I would be in those cages instead of those animals, all for the greater good. See what I mean? A wrong can not be justified just by claiming that it's for the greater good.

People lived, survived and thrived for ever and never had to do these sort of "discoveries" of course people would always devolve to all kinds of crimes/sacrafices/perversions etc and then those civilizations are wiped out.

I'd say it like this, if you can take an innocent beagle or a chimp and torture it, and then do it again and again, you would do the same to a baby and an adult and you would do it again and again.
They are no better then child rapists and everything that falls into the sadistic basket. Regardless if they claim that their tests are "necessary!vital! Break through!"

The world would continue juuuuuust fine without them and their discoveries.

 

[redsun]

@redsun I heard they had a whole lab here locally at the hospital full of beagles, the dogs, they were trying to "discover a new drug to cure cancer" and these animals were put through all kinds of tests, radiation, etc, they were making too much noise howling and barking that they moved the whole lab so the patients would not be disturbed, they were close enough to hear.

I get your point redsun, and if it were a matter of them testing a certain something on let's say a human baby or a puppy, of course I would say use the puppy

But these even dogs in there, are going through unimaginable horrors, to ultimately die an undigbified death, for what? For a "cure" that must be found, c'mon, even, even if that were the case, what gives these people in this particular case the right to torture thousands of beagle puppies and dogs for a "cancer cure" which is complete horse sh*t, it's all about $$$.

Also, the point to all this is this, that, given the opportunity, you and I would be in those cages instead of those animals, all for the greater good. See what I mean? A wrong can not be justified just by claiming that it's for the greater good.

People lived, survived and thrived for ever and never had to do these sort of "discoveries" of course people would always devolve to all kinds of crimes/sacrafices/perversions etc and then those civilizations are wiped out.

I'd say it like this, if you can take an innocent beagle or a chimp and torture it, and then do it again and again, you would do the same to a baby and an adult and you would do it again and again.
They are no better then child rapists and everything that falls into the sadistic basket. Regardless if they claim that their tests are "necessary!vital! Break through!"

The world would continue juuuuuust fine without them and their discoveries.

No we would not be experimented on given the opportunity. You are assuming these scientists are inheritantly sadistic and yet also want to benefit humanity by finding a cure to cancer (or any disease)? How does that make sense? Using humans not only is highly unethical and unthinkable to virtually any scientist (you forget scientists are people too), it actually defeats the purpose since the purpose of a cure to a disease is to save human lives. No human live is unnecessarily lost when you use animals.

Animal testing as a scientific practice is thousands of years old. The world would be nothing at all like how it is now if we never did animal testing. No treatments for many terrible diseases, no antibiotics, antivirals, anticonvulsants, analgesics, you name it. It was animal tested.

I didnt say its right, but this isnt a perfect world. Comparing scientists to sadists and child rapists is ridiculous. This is clearly an emotionally charged topic for you since you really just are fine with saying scientists are inheritantly evil and forget the actual good that came of all this.

 

[Nomane Euger]

@bornamachine

Hi,from my perspective,

people who perform experiments have the power and the tendency to do so, influenced by various potential factors,in their energetic state they perceive the experiments to be detrimental of animals well being, a net positive for humans in general, or some people in particular, and/or they are paid to do it, and/or they could be pressured/threatened to do it,there is not necessarily more "sadism" required to do experiments on animals, than killing animals to eat them,

From the point of view and feelings of a person with a high enough degree of sensitivity/empathy, both can be considered wrong and unnecessary, yet most people I know eat animals, and most don't think about life conditions of the animals that they have eaten,the only rare people who have complained about the sub-optimal living conditions of many animals, are people who are influenced by "health" influencers,

and who tend to give life factors and diet a higher healing power than drugs, which is potentially your perspective as well, a majority of people I know don't view diet and life factors as having a higher healing power than drugs

So if your perspective is that it it unecessary and not worth it,i suggest you experiment with enough people to see if every persons can heal any suboptimal health condition with diet/life styles factors,and if it work for most people/all people,you influence other to experiment and realise it is not necessary and not optimal to conduct animals experiments

i wish you fun

 

[LeeLemonoil]

There is no way around this ethic dilemma.

Homo Sapiens is the Peak predator of this World. Not only in the sense that he hunts and eats any animal he desires but he completely subjugates and influences every living thing on the globe.

Some think montheistic religions were invented just to cope with the fact. Humans justifying their atrocities by inventing a God that is both human-like and gave humans a free pass to reign about creation.

I think there is something to it.

I personally cannot grasp the double standards around this issue. Vegans condemning meat eaters but not research on lab-animals.
People trying to „save climate“ but in the process destroying unspoilt land.
Or, worst, all the freaking woke aching hearts that want to protect and save humans everywhere without acknowledging the fact that every single one of us destroys the environment even more.

There is no ideal state of things. No untouched nature, no natural state. Everything is already the Anthropocene.

It’s our choice. Where to draw the line? How many humans shall live on the globe and how are they supposed to live. How are they allowed to?

How many square kilometers of forests or wild pastures, Savannahs and traverses of wild animals to we still want to take away forever?

I cannot answer it. I can only feel disgusted by the cowardice of many people to not face the fact that there is no protection of animals, nature, environment, climate - however you will call it - and no protection of human dignity and a worthwhile way of living if we pretend there are no limits for our species.

So yes. While I see the merits and need of experiments on animals, it’s still a very Fine Ethical line and I don’t find it justified in every case. And not in general. It is an atrocity, a deliberate one and it should not be denied or whitewashed with poor arguments.
It should be treated like some humans treated killed prey: mourning the fact, acknowledging the necessity but always keep in mind and Rever that you do it to preserve yourself. Is the latter an ultimate justification? You can broker that with yourself and God.

There is quite a lot of animal research that is flat dubious goals: personal gain of a scientist for the sake of publications. Or to invent purely commercially motivated pharmacons.
A lot of quacks and show-offs are involved.

 

[Sphagnum]

No we would not be experimented on given the opportunity. You are assuming these scientists are inheritantly sadistic and yet also want to benefit humanity by finding a cure to cancer (or any disease)? How does that make sense? Using humans not only is highly unethical and unthinkable to virtually any scientist (you forget scientists are people too), it actually defeats the purpose since the purpose of a cure to a disease is to save human lives. No human live is unnecessarily lost when you use animals.

While I would agree that they’re not inherently sadists, I would also argue that they also aren’t inherently altruistic or doing their work to help humanity anymore than the cashier at the grocery store is trying to end hunger in the community. They’re both at their respective jobs for one reason, and would sooner switch their line of work than take a significant pay cut.

I can’t think of any reason to consider scientists any more ethical than any other career path, and I would wager that the vast majority of their “ethics” are not integrity based, meaning that if there was added reward and no chance of being caught, most of them would throw their standards right out the window. There are more than enough examples of depraved human trials to show this, and variables such as ‘what time in civilization were they in,’ or ‘who/what organization were they working for’ hold no objective weight.

 

[HeyThere]

With everything that is going on, and has gone on, probably evil and being sociopathic. This lends someone to want to be in power. Most normal people don't desire this kind of power I don't think.

 

[Jackson Chung]

Experimenting on animals is a net positive to humanity. How do you think we even get to human drug trials? There needs to be rigorous testing of safety of potential drugs using lab animals before any human could even possibly take them. Otherwise humans volunteering in trials to determine drug safety could be potentially signing up for certain death.

In a perfect world, we would never need to use lab animals because humans would never get sick in the first place. But thats not our reality. No one can ever change this but why would you even want to change it since the only alternative is to make humans the lab rats.

i agree with the OP. I don't think we need to conduct so many experiments.

The cure for cancer and many other diseases have already been found. They have been supressed, this is well documented (look around on this forum).

95% of the synthetic medicine they put out is useless at best and can kill you at worst. Most of todays medical discoveries are basically the large companies finding a replacement when their patents run out. Basically changing one molecule, testing it and selling it for a 10000% markup.

For example in cancer testing, their idea of research is if 1 dose of poison is more effective than 2 doses of poison. This is totally unncessary if society knows about the cancer cures.

 

[bornamachine]

I think by now everything that needed to be experimented on has been done, what more must they learn? Remember when RP would say how they would feed the rats some starch (maybe it was something else) and within minutes kill the rat, open the intestines and find all food has been assimilated, that's fine, they fed the animal, killed it, researched, but what my issue is, what would give anyone the right to take an animal, say a chimp or a dog, and say "what will happen if we radiate this animal 24/7 or remove some organs etc etc" just imagine, what if its YOU in the cage now and let's face it, who are you in a sea of billions and whats a little suffering for the greater good? That is my question. What gives them the right. A human deserves respect and even a dog deserves respect, if you want to kill a dog? Fine. Do it quick, precise, any animal really, but once you start cutting and experimenting I think you've crossed a moral line.

 

[ThinPicking]

This is still a tough one for me as well. Even well kept rats and mice are cute little things with obvious smarts and psychoemotional propensity. And yet I find the results of rat and mice studies fascinating.

Not sure I'll ever get my head around this. Just had a border collie following me around my Christmas dwelling, making me feel more human than most humans are capable of doing.

 

[Nomane Euger]

@bornamachine Hello,i suggest you a perspective:

There is no "rights"allowing them to do i,t,they have a higher degree of power over these animals and a part of humans,therefore they do it