If one wouldn’t kill it, should one eat it?

Herbie

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I’ve been thinking about this line of thought about if I could kill a cow, a pig, a chicken, a fish, a shrimp, an oyster. I’m not talking about is it wrong to kill animals or we shouldn’t eat them. I’m asking could you do it without feeling remorseful.

The more conscious an animal, the bigger the brain, the harder on the heart is to kill. To test it, how would you feel to kill an elephant or a mosquito? I’ve observed animals and realise they are more conscious than what we are made to believe.

I really hate those guys who go to Africa and kill elephants, biggest losers on Earth.

I couldn’t kill a cow, I would never forgive myself, It’s just how I am and I’ve been like this for 10 years since I first thought about it. I’ve eaten heaps of beef but I just bought it at the store so I can choose to be ignorant.

I’ve milked cows, no issues at all with it.

This all came up because I watch these pigeons who live in a hole in the wall of the building outside my work. They recently had a little pigeon and last summer the dad one flew into my work building each day for fun, he knows me. Last week he built a nest inside and some eggs were laid but two crows came and hurt the pigeon and stole the eggs, The pigeons left and never seen them again, I was thinking that kropotkin was wrong, everyone says crows are so smart but they are savages.
 

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Gânico

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I don't think anybody couldn't kill a big animal for pitying them, it's just because you aren't used to it and never needed to hunt/slaughter for food.
 
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Nomane Euger

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Sep 22, 2020
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I’ve been thinking about this line of thought about if I could kill a cow, a pig, a chicken, a fish, a shrimp, an oyster. I’m not talking about is it wrong to kill animals or we shouldn’t eat them. I’m asking could you do it without feeling remorseful.

The more conscious an animal, the bigger the brain, the harder on the heart is to kill. To test it, how would you feel to kill an elephant or a mosquito? I’ve observed animals and realise they are more conscious than what we are made to believe.

I really hate those guys who go to Africa and kill elephants, biggest losers on Earth.

I couldn’t kill a cow, I would never forgive myself, It’s just how I am and I’ve been like this for 10 years since I first thought about it. I’ve eaten heaps of beef but I just bought it at the store so I can choose to be ignorant.

I’ve milked cows, no issues at all with it.

This all came up because I watch these pigeons who live in a hole in the wall of the building outside my work. They recently had a little pigeon and last summer the dad one flew into my work building each day for fun, he knows me. Last week he built a nest inside and some eggs were laid but two crows came and hurt the pigeon and stole the eggs, The pigeons left and never seen them again, I was thinking that kropotkin was wrong, everyone says crows are so smart but they are savages.
hi,from my experience,it depend how i feel,when i eat a lot of fruits and feel like a kid,i dont have ideas about eating meat,thinking about killing an animal give me unplesants heart feelings,and meat doesnt taste pleasant anyway compare to fruits doesnt matter wich cooking method which animal,only the salt on it taste good..when i have more competivity ,stressors in my life such as working out,social tensions,spending time with women with wich there is a sexual interest,an overnight fast,it will make me more stoic in my heart,in my head,and i wont feel bad feelings when thinking about killing an animal,and i will eventually crave meat at some point,specifically when i have cold extremities doesnt matter what i do,the stoicism about killing an animal come with all other characteristics associated with masculinity
 

TheSir

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This is why there used to be a ritualistic context to slaughter. The animal was offered to a god before eating. The deliberateness and the gratefulness with which such ritual was performed gave us peace. The animal was fulfilling its role as our food and we were honoring it by eating it. There is nothing sacred to how meat is produced these days. This is to say that I would rather lovingly kill my own meat than buy the supermarket meat that died in fear.
 
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Herbie

Herbie

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This is why there used to be a ritualistic context to slaughter. The animal was offered to a god before eating. The deliberateness and the gratefulness with which such ritual was performed gave us peace. The animal was fulfilling its role as our food and we were honoring it by eating it. There is nothing sacred to how meat is produced these days. This is to say that I would rather lovingly kill my own meat than buy the supermarket meat that died in fear.
Yeah the native Americans did a prayer to thank the animal for becoming them.
 
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Herbie

Herbie

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This is why there used to be a ritualistic context to slaughter. The animal was offered to a god before eating. The deliberateness and the gratefulness with which such ritual was performed gave us peace. The animal was fulfilling its role as our food and we were honoring it by eating it. There is nothing sacred to how meat is produced these days. This is to say that I would rather lovingly kill my own meat than buy the supermarket meat that died in fear.
Yeah once starving for days and feeling weak, then ask me how I would feel about it.
 

Jayvee

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Q good question and no straight answer to this. Having done farm work and dragging pigs into trailers to takie them to the abbatoir, this hasn't been an easy one for me.

But, I dont think you have to directly kill it to be able to eat it. It's more down to social construct here, you dont have to kill it so therefore you dont/wont.

If you were in a position where you were starving and a pig was stood in front of you, you most likely would kill it and eat it. If you wouldn't then that's different and you should probably be a vegetarian (to avoid cognitive dissonance)

I happily eat meat, I know deep down I would kill an animal for food 'if I had too' otherwise I am happy to pay for it to be killed and butchered by other people. I also think it's really important for the animal to live a good life as this effects both the quality of the meat and ultimately the cosmos.
 
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Herbie

Herbie

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Q good question and no straight answer to this. Having done farm work and dragging pigs into trailers to takie them to the abbatoir, this hasn't been an easy one for me.

But, I dont think you have to directly kill it to be able to eat it. It's more down to social construct here, you dont have to kill it so therefore you dont/wont.

If you were in a position where you were starving and a pig was stood in front of you, you most likely would kill it and eat it. If you wouldn't then that's different and you should probably be a vegetarian (to avoid cognitive dissonance)

I happily eat meat, I know deep down I would kill an animal for food 'if I had too' otherwise I am happy to pay for it to be killed and butchered by other people. I also think it's really important for the animal to live a good life as this effects both the quality of the meat and ultimately the cosmos.
Yeah starving for days, wouldn’t think twice. Well I would say that most farm animals have better life than tax paying humans.

I guess it’s like war, totally insane to kill fellow men but put in a life or death situation by government and ruling class then things change.
 

Jennifer

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I couldn’t directly kill an animal, but I didn’t grow up doing so—I actually grew up raising animals, but not for food—and I’ve never had to do it for survival so I don’t know how I would feel about it if my context were different. With that said, I don’t think for one second that I don’t contribute to the death of animals just because I don’t eat meat and don’t see the slaughter. I know for certain animals die because I live—I was vegetarian and vegan for the majority of my life and struggled to come to terms with that fact and sadly, almost lost my life because of it so I empathize with anyone who does also. I should mention that my brother was a hunter, as well as my uncle, and both had no issue killing animals for food.
 
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Herbie

Herbie

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I couldn’t directly kill an animal, but I didn’t grow up doing so—I actually grew up raising animals, but not for food—and I’ve never had to do it for survival so I don’t know how I would feel about it if my context were different. With that said, I don’t think for one second that I don’t contribute to the death of animals just because I don’t eat meat and don’t see the slaughter. I know for certain animals die because I live—I was vegetarian and vegan for the majority of my life and struggled to come to terms with that fact and sadly, almost lost my life because of it so I empathize with anyone who does also. I should mention that my brother was a hunter, as well as my uncle, and both had no issue killing animals for food.
Same goes for chopping down big trees, would feel deeply remorseful. They chop down the Amazon jungles huge mahogany trees, kill all the animals so people can have doors and book cases and after plant soy and grain so vegans aren’t getting away with anything.

I’ve spent time alone in remote nature for days and days and come to think that current humans aren't from Earth, we don’t fit in here. We have to make everything fit to us. Animals have their own perfect diet and everything we eat is killing us.
 

Jennifer

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For sure! I’d feel deeply remorseful, too. I’ve spent a lot of time in nature—was an avid climber and did extended backpacking trips and I also live out in the woods—and I can understand why you think that but may I ask, what makes you believe that everything we eat is killing us?
 
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Herbie

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For sure! I’d feel deeply remorseful, too. I’ve spent a lot of time in nature—was an avid climber and did extended backpacking trips and I also live out in the woods—and I can understand why you think that but may I ask, what makes you believe that everything we eat is killing us?
many wild animals don’t age like humans do, it seems so simple for them to eat and not have any disease or cancer. We don’t have the perfect diet, everyone is always modifying it and never settled on it. So many issues with digestion and bad fats and amino acids and starches, too much minerals/vitamins and not enough, serotonin in fruits, gluten, phosphorus, blood sugar etc.

Whales go down to Antarctica once a year, eat heaps of krill then just swim north for winter and fast and repeat, it’s that simple for them, they are huge and smarter than us with bigger brain.
 

Jennifer

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many wild animals don’t age like humans do, it seems so simple for them to eat and not have any disease or cancer. We don’t have the perfect diet, everyone is always modifying it and never settled on it. So many issues with digestion and bad fats and amino acids and starches, too much minerals/vitamins and not enough, serotonin in fruits, gluten, phosphorus, blood sugar etc.

Whales go down to Antarctica once a year, eat heaps of krill then just swim north for winter and fast and repeat, it’s that simple for them, they are huge and smarter than us with bigger brain.

Thank you for explaining. Maybe it seems like everyone is always modifying their diet because health is an interest of yours so the information you seek and the circles you run in confirm this belief? Most people I know refuse to change their diet from the one they were raised on, despite doctors telling them it's contributing to the chronic health issues they have. I only know a few people, including myself, who don't consume a standard western diet high in chemically ladened, lab created substances trying to pass as food so it seems to me that the current pool of examples aren't the most accurate representation of what the health and lifespan of our species could be. It's also difficult to compare our aging to other species living in the wild who, on average, don't live nearly as long as we do because of confounding factors such as infant mortality, predators, harsh weather conditions, habitat destruction, competition for food etc. And really, how can we be certain that it's food that is harming us and not our beliefs that are? What if the rate of living belief had never been part of the collective's consciousness? Group thinking is powerful, in my opinion and experience.
 
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Peatness

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If the animal, such as a dog/cow/sheep, was really hungry would it kill a human for food?
 
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Herbie

Herbie

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Thank you for explaining. Maybe it seems like everyone is always modifying their diet because health is an interest of yours so the information you seek and the circles you run in confirm this belief? Most people I know refuse to change their diet from the one they were raised on, despite doctors telling them it's contributing to the chronic health issues they have. I only know a few people, including myself, who don't consume a standard western diet high in chemically ladened, lab created substances trying to pass as food so it seems to me that the current pool of examples aren't the most accurate representation of what the health and lifespan of our species could be. It's also difficult to compare our aging to other species living in the wild who, on average, don't live nearly as long as we do because of confounding factors such as infant mortality, predators, harsh weather conditions, habitat destruction, competition for food etc. And really, how can we be certain that it's food that is harming us and not our beliefs that are? What if the rate of living belief had never been part of the collective's consciousness? Group thinking is powerful, in my opinion and experience.
We don’t have a diet we evolved to and stuck with like the whales did or squirrels. Which we could just go back to and be fine, we are still searching for it. Ray has uncovered that primitive diets were far from perfect but he did once say they we weren’t under the stress we are now and needed less nutrition and didn’t require as much calcium.

We had to start cooking with fire for some reason and then farming starches and grains which are not actually good for us or ideal and now look at the mess we are in as a race which supposedly used to be wild and adapted to the environment. We aren’t adapted to pufa like many animals, still drinking milk as adults. Yeah I get what you mean about the rate of living theory, people just expect to fall apart at an age and start using it as an excuse to get out of work and responsibilities when really they are malnourished and stressed. They sabotage and defeat themselves. Plus people take great pride in eating barely anything. I doubt we ever really knew how animals actually lived before we destroyed so much nature.

The whales (humpback) I referred to live to 100 years.
 
A

Adf

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Crows are insanely smart for non human animals, but yeah crows can be absolute savages too. Chickens are naturally afraid of them. There's a hilarious video on Youtube of a crow starting a turf fight between 2 cats, just for sh*ts and giggles. They can also learn to speak like cockatoos and parrots can. There's some amazing anecdotal stories on the web regarding the intelligence of crows.

I've had chickens as pets. They're more complex and intelligent than most people think too. For a time, I used to do sunwatching where you look up into the sun very early or very late, before the UV picks up. It supposedly is meant to be good for you, but honestly I didn't notice anything.

Anywho, the chickens would always come up to me and peck at my leg hairs, lose interest and walk away. One time, they did so and then lost interest but one of my chickens who was very sickly at the time, came up to me and laid down in-between my legs where I was standing. It looked like a struggle for her to walk, but she still did it. She had never done that before, it made me wonder why she did it, did she feel safe with me there? It wasn't because I had shade, she got up from her shade in the bush, to come lay underneath me. It felt spiritual tbh.

They also have a pecking order, one chicken to lead the pack.

Also when the chickens all sat in a circle together, it's a joke I would often make that they were scheming something. Because whenever they caught my movement they would all turn their heads in unison to stare me down like I saw something I wasn't supposed to haha.

So I don't eat meat, and I especially don't eat chickens, because I've had adorable chickens as pets. Would you eat cat or dog meat if the supermarket sold it? If not, why not? Likely because they're pets and are adorable? As are chickens to me. To me there's no difference between meats whether its cows, pigs, chickens or cats/dogs. They're all intelligent and cute living creatures.

Not saying I wouldn't hunt animals for meat if we had an ice age that deletes all our crops though. Gotta survive when we don't have the luxury of choice.
 

Eberhardt

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Easyly answered though I used to think a lot about it , the answer is yes. If you are morally ok with it but emotionally not so much that is. I would feel horrible doing a surgery like appendictomy or something like that but its not morally wrong, so I would have one if needed but leave the job to someone less uncomfortable doing it. Its just divison of labour :)
 

TheSir

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Crows are insanely smart for non human animals, but yeah crows can be absolute savages too. Chickens are naturally afraid of them. There's a hilarious video on Youtube of a crow starting a turf fight between 2 cats, just for sh*ts and giggles. They can also learn to speak like cockatoos and parrots can. There's some amazing anecdotal stories on the web regarding the intelligence of crows.
Reminded me of this funny oldie:

1647869550998.png
 

Jennifer

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We don’t have a diet we evolved to and stuck with like the whales did or squirrels. Which we could just go back to and be fine, we are still searching for it. Ray has uncovered that primitive diets were far from perfect but he did once say they we weren’t under the stress we are now and needed less nutrition and didn’t require as much calcium.

We had to start cooking with fire for some reason and then farming starches and grains which are not actually good for us or ideal and now look at the mess we are in as a race which supposedly used to be wild and adapted to the environment. We aren’t adapted to pufa like many animals, still drinking milk as adults. Yeah I get what you mean about the rate of living theory, people just expect to fall apart at an age and start using it as an excuse to get out of work and responsibilities when really they are malnourished and stressed. They sabotage and defeat themselves. Plus people take great pride in eating barely anything. I doubt we ever really knew how animals actually lived before we destroyed so much nature.

The whales (humpback) I referred to live to 100 years.

What if our diet is one of flexibility? What if it was dietary flexibility that allowed our species to survive as long as it has and create what it has? It seems to me that the species that are able to eat a wider variety of food stand the greatest chance of survival. Cooking with fire would allow for digestibility of certain plant matter, creating a greater supply of food (and larger brain?), so perhaps it wasn’t just necessity that led to our using fire but also intelligence? Or maybe it was all by chance? Did we evolve to thrive on certain foods or were we created to thrive on certain foods? So many theories on the subject and so many unknowns.

If given the opportunity, even wild animals will consume milk in adulthood. I live out in the woods and have seen it with my own eyes. I skim my raw milk and dump the cream outside in the snow and the animals eat it up. I call it their ice cream. lol Of course, now we’re talking about natural versus optimal. In my opinion and experience, natural doesn’t mean the same thing for everyone nor does it automatically mean optimal. To me, it is natural to choose food security so even though this is not the most popular opinion these days, I believe (intelligent and though up for debate, compassionate) farming was a good move for our species. But yeah, I agree that there are people who take great pride in eating barely anything. The famine mindset is strong these days.

Yep, I knew the whales you were referring to can live up to 100 years, but I was speaking in terms of averages, as in, the amount of species that don’t have the life expectancy humpbacks or humans have, despite eating their “species specific” diet.

Reminded me of this funny oldie:

View attachment 34845

Now that’s twisted. It’s like a how to guide for politicians. Divide and conquer…with Happy Meals.
 
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OP
Herbie

Herbie

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Crows are insanely smart for non human animals, but yeah crows can be absolute savages too. Chickens are naturally afraid of them. There's a hilarious video on Youtube of a crow starting a turf fight between 2 cats, just for sh*ts and giggles. They can also learn to speak like cockatoos and parrots can. There's some amazing anecdotal stories on the web regarding the intelligence of crows.

I've had chickens as pets. They're more complex and intelligent than most people think too. For a time, I used to do sunwatching where you look up into the sun very early or very late, before the UV picks up. It supposedly is meant to be good for you, but honestly I didn't notice anything.

Anywho, the chickens would always come up to me and peck at my leg hairs, lose interest and walk away. One time, they did so and then lost interest but one of my chickens who was very sickly at the time, came up to me and laid down in-between my legs where I was standing. It looked like a struggle for her to walk, but she still did it. She had never done that before, it made me wonder why she did it, did she feel safe with me there? It wasn't because I had shade, she got up from her shade in the bush, to come lay underneath me. It felt spiritual tbh.

They also have a pecking order, one chicken to lead the pack.

Also when the chickens all sat in a circle together, it's a joke I would often make that they were scheming something. Because whenever they caught my movement they would all turn their heads in unison to stare me down like I saw something I wasn't supposed to haha.

So I don't eat meat, and I especially don't eat chickens, because I've had adorable chickens as pets. Would you eat cat or dog meat if the supermarket sold it? If not, why not? Likely because they're pets and are adorable? As are chickens to me. To me there's no difference between meats whether its cows, pigs, chickens or cats/dogs. They're all intelligent and cute living creatures.

Not saying I wouldn't hunt animals for meat if we had an ice age that deletes all our crops though. Gotta survive when we don't have the luxury of choice.
Yes crows are really smart and pigeons are very smart too, they are known to follow major arterial roads and turn at intersections, because they know land marks for directions, they catch trains in London and know which stop to get off, they recognise themselves in the mirror and remember humans. I’ve had pet chickens too, thanks for sharing. They don’t seem to get upset if we take their eggs.

It reminds me of this documentary, they hunt monkeys for food but keep pets as well, it’s interesting that even primitive people kept pets.

If I was hungry things would change for sure, I just have a problem with destroying living things. I see animals like people and have the same feelings towards suicide, I just cannot be violent or destroy something unless in defence.


View: https://youtu.be/Z22qpIzWxcY
 
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