Thoughts On 5ar And Post Finasteride Syndrome

[sladerunner69]

10mg aka 6 drops of Progestene. I believe the full 20mg dose is 12 drops

Wow yeah thats quite a lot because two or 3 drops gives me a sedative effect. Apparently that will help increase 5ar expression though. Im wondering how long it has been since you took fin?

 

[mayweatherking]

In general sugar makes my constipation worse. The less of it i take in the better my digestion is.

I notice some interesting things in regard to high sugar, I notice it has the possibility to bump my pulse up all the way to 110 to 120. I drink coconut water after this, and i see my pulse drop down to 70, then it comes back to 80 to 90, making me think my potassium was low.

I think the true root cause of pfs is the inability to deal with stress. If you do nofap for about 2 weeks, sometimes it can take up to a month or two depending on how bad shape you are in, you will see the symptoms alleviate. The body cant handle stress at all.

I think the ghb route finally give you some peace because it com0letely turns your muscles off and it allows your cortisol to finally chill out and lower.

Is there anything else that will completely put your muscles to relax that you can buy that is safe? Maybe like some Nyquil or something

 

[sladerunner69]

I found this:
"Dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) up-regulates 5AR activity. 1 Progesterone inhibits 5AR activity.2 These two hormones can be easily and accurately assessed on a 24-hr urine hormone profile."
from http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/ref/10.3109/09513590009167703?scroll=top

Maybe they werent adjusting for 5ar types 1,2 &3 but still strange that dhea doesnt give us great results if it increases 5ar activity across the board....

 

[chimdp]

Wow yeah thats quite a lot because two or 3 drops gives me a sedative effect. Apparently that will help increase 5ar expression though. Im wondering how long it has been since you took fin?

I took fin for 11 months and then took dutasteride for 5 months. i maybe had slight symptoms of PFS on fin but didn't really realize what they were until they got magnified from being on dutasteride. I've been off everything since July 1, 2016.

 

[bloom]

Just for the record, i think 5ar in PFS can be ubiquitously impaired in the body. However I think where it's impairment is most significant in is the Brain/CNS. This is the area which ought to be targeted first IMO. Since increasing 5ar activity elsewhere does more harm than good for the majority of us, for reasons this whole thread has been attempting to explain.

 

[TubZy]

I took 10mg of ambien the past two nights before bed, I felt really good about an hour after taking it and slept like like a rock, I felt really good waking up in the morning and up until lunch followed by an extreme rebound anxiety after lunch..it was bad, I'm never taking that again.

I haven't seen any studies on ambien and neurosteroid synthesis but obviously the only reason it helps it due to the GABA-A agonism, which at the moment is just a band aid since allopreg should be modulating that receptor and ambien just filled in that role temporarily for a short time.

So valium (diazapam) we know significantly stimulates 5AR in the brain (from the study from the original post on this thread- even stronger than caffeine) plus it has a very long half life (which is good) compared to all of the other benzos, I think it works well due to the longer half life that would also cause longer stimulation of 5AR in the brain and lesser chance of rebound anxiety. Valium is actually used to help taper long time benzo users off for good. So maybe a low dose (5mg or less) once daily wouldn't be all that bad,

There were no other benzos that showed that it stimulated 5AR in the brain, so I definitely think valium is in its own category, which is why bloom said it reversed his PFS symptoms both physically and mentally even at a very low dose (5mg).

Now, I think etifoxine is separate too as it showed it stimulated neurosteroid synthesis (acts different than standard benzos). It also does not cause dependence or tolerance, which again makes is safer for PFS people and again, separates it from the properties of standard benzos.

Etifoxine - Wikipedia

It has similar anxiolytic effects to benzodiazepine drugs, but is structurally distinct and does not bind to the benzodiazepine receptor.[6] It is as effective as lorazepam as an anxiolytic, but has fewer side effects.[7] Etifoxine is not a scheduled drug in any country in which it is sold and does not cause dependence or tolerance. Etifoxine is not approved by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration or the European Medicines Agency.

The non-benzodiazepine anxiolytic drug etifoxine causes a rapid, receptor-independent stimulation of neurosteroid biosynthesis. - PubMed - NCBI

Etifoxine also induced a rapid stimulation of neurosteroid biosynthesis from frog hypothalamus homogenates, a preparation in which membrane receptor signalling is disrupted. In conclusion, the present study demonstrates that etifoxine stimulates neurosteroid production through a membrane receptor-independent mechanism.

 

[TubZy]

I also agree with @mayweatherking about being in a "stressed" state constantly, which totally makes sense in terms of a lot of the other side effects like immune issues, infections etc. There is a study showing how benzos prevented stress induced immune suppression on the HPTA, showing that GABA-A is actually immune protective. If GABA-A is working properly (due to allopreg and other neurosteroids not modulating it in times of stress) the immune system would function properly and not get suppressed. So think of all of the people with candida issues, viral issues, immune issues etc.

Peat said the same thing, if the body is stuck in a stressed state it becomes a vicious cycle to get out of. So possibly using a long acting benzo like valium for a certain period of time or maybe etifoxine daily ( since there is no tolerance/dependency) may be actually a legit option until you feel full recovered.

Get the body out of a stressed cycle it is in so it can recover.

But yeah, niacinamide and inosine would be much safer options...

 

[bloom]

I took 10mg of ambien the past two nights before bed, I felt really good about an hour after taking it and slept like like a rock, I felt really good waking up in the morning and up until lunch followed by an extreme rebound anxiety after lunch is was bad, I'm never taking that again.

I haven't seen any studies on ambien and neurosteroid synthesis but obviously the only reason it helps it due to the GABA-A agonism, which at the moment is just a band aid since allopreg should be modulating that receptor.

So valium (diazapam) we know significantly stimulates 5AR in the brain (from the study from the original post on this thread) plus it has a very long half life (which is good) compared to all of the other benzos, I haven't seen any with the some research behind it, which is why I think it works well. The longer half life would also cause longer stimulation of 5AR in the brain and lesser chance of rebound anxiety.

There were no other benzos that showed that it stimulated 5AR in the brain, so I definitely think valium is in its own category, which is why bloom said it reversed his PFS symptoms both physically and mentally.

Now, I think etifoxine is separate from showed it stimulated neurosteroid synthesis (acts different than standard benzos). It also does not cause dependence or tolerance, which again makes is safer for PFS people and again, separates it from the properties of standard benzos.

Etifoxine - Wikipedia

It has similar anxiolytic effects to benzodiazepine drugs, but is structurally distinct and does not bind to the benzodiazepine receptor.[6] It is as effective as lorazepam as an anxiolytic, but has fewer side effects.[7] Etifoxine is not a scheduled drug in any country in which it is sold and does not cause dependence or tolerance. Etifoxine is not approved by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration or the European Medicines Agency.

The non-benzodiazepine anxiolytic drug etifoxine causes a rapid, receptor-independent stimulation of neurosteroid biosynthesis. - PubMed - NCBI

Etifoxine also induced a rapid stimulation of neurosteroid biosynthesis from frog hypothalamus homogenates, a preparation in which membrane receptor signalling is disrupted. In conclusion, the present study demonstrates that etifoxine stimulates neurosteroid production through a membrane receptor-independent mechanism.

Sometimes Benzo's or other GABAA agonist' can induce a 'paradoxical effect' where they cause anxiety. You're right Valium has a very long half life. It also has another known mechanism of action aside from GABAA agonism which is binding to the TSPO facilitating cholestrol conversion to prenenolone in the mitochondria. Which is why I assume it has been the most effective Benzo for me so far. Inosine and Nicotinamide combined with Etifoxine or PEA is going to be my next approach. Nicotinamide/Inosine for GABAA agonism, and extifoxine or PEA for Pregnenolone synthesis. I should add no one really has a complete understanding of the mechanism of action of these drugs.

 

[TubZy]

Sometimes Benzo's or other GABAA agonist' can induce a 'paradoxical effect' where they cause anxiety. You're right Valium has a very long half life. It also has another known mechanism of action aside from GABAA agonism which is binding to the TSPO facilitating cholestrol conversion to prenenolone in the mitochondria. Which is why I assume it has been the most effective Benzo for me so far. Inosine and Nicotinamide combined with Etifoxine or PEA is going to be my next approach. Nicotinamide/Inosine for GABAA agonism, and extifoxine or PEA for Pregnenolone synthesis. I should add no one really has a complete understanding of the mechanism of action of these drugs.

Well it literally is the only benzo that we know of that significantly stimulates 5AR in the diencephalon,even more than caffeine, which is pretty crazy considering a few of us (me especially notices big improvment from the caffeine/niaciamide combo). How many days straight have you tried using valium and does the effect last all day?

"...Diencephalon 5 alpha-reductase activity showed a highly significant increase (p less than 0.01) after a single administration of carbamazepine, reserpine, diazepam, phenytoin, phenobarbital or disulfiram. A significant increase (p less than 0.05) was also found after a single administration of methylphenidate, caffeine or methamphetamine."

 

[bloom]

Well it literally is the only benzo that we know of that significantly stimulates 5AR in the diencephalon,even more than caffeine, which is pretty crazy considering a few of us (me especially notices big improvment from the caffeine/niaciamide combo). How many days straight have you tried using valium and does the effect last all day?

"...Diencephalon 5 alpha-reductase activity showed a highly significant increase (p less than 0.01) after a single administration of carbamazepine, reserpine, diazepam, phenytoin, phenobarbital or disulfiram. A significant increase (p less than 0.05) was also found after a single administration of methylphenidate, caffeine or methamphetamine."

Well i've used other benzo's, lorazepem, and Xanax and they do help, brought back spontaneous erections, libido ect. GABAA agonism seems to be the most important factor. Carbamazepine did aswell. The benefits from valium lessened over time as you VERY quickly develope a tolerance. At that point you have two options 1. Increase the dose which will ultimately lead to more problems or 2. Find a a safer alternative, which is why im going for the Nicotinamide/Inosine combo. Dr's hate prescribing Benzo's for good reason, they're super addictive and can ultimately cause more problems than they solve.

 

[bloom]

As a side note, i'd much rather have a masculine/sexual Brain than have masculine muscles, and be asexual.

 

[TubZy]

Well i've used other benzo's, lorazepem, and Xanax and they do help, brought back spontaneous erections, libido ect. GABAA agonism seems to be the most important factor. Carbamazepine did aswell. The benefits from valium lessened over time as you VERY quickly develope a tolerance. At that point you have two options 1. Increase the dose which will ultimately lead to more problems or 2. Find a a safer alternative, which is why im going for the Nicotinamide/Inosine combo. Dr's hate prescribing Benzo's for good reason, they're super addictive and can ultimately cause more problems than they solve.

When you used those benzos and also valium in particular, would you say you were 100% recovered if you could just stay on valium full time? I'm not sure of all the sides you have so, not sure if spontaneous erection means full reversal of all symptoms (meaning recovered or just feel normal again)?

 

[sladerunner69]

I took fin for 11 months and then took dutasteride for 5 months. i maybe had slight symptoms of PFS on fin but didn't really realize what they were until they got magnified from being on dutasteride. I've been off everything since July 1, 2016.

I see then. Hasnt even been a year for you yet. I took fin in july 2011.

 

[sladerunner69]

Just for the record, i think 5ar in PFS can be ubiquitously impaired in the body. However I think where it's impairment is most significant in is the Brain/CNS. This is the area which ought to be targeted first IMO. Since increasing 5ar activity elsewhere does more harm than good for the majority of us, for reasons this whole thread has been attempting to explain.

You think testosterone antagonizes 5ar expression and I can see that but where is your theory that "perioherial" 5ar 2 lowers brain 5ar 1&2? Because dhea and dht can make one feel worse?

 

[bloom]

You think testosterone antagonizes 5ar expression and I can see that but where is your theory that "perioherial" 5ar 2 lowers brain 5ar 1&2? Because dhea and dht can make one feel worse?

I'm not sure I know what you mean. I have posted several studies showing castrating rats can dramatically increase 5ar expression in the Brain. There was a study I posted earlier which demonstrated that Testosterone administrated to rats male or female, increased 5ar2 expression in the Brain, but decreased 5ar1 expression in the Brain.

 

[sladerunner69]

To be honest once I thought I had a pretty good understanding of what the major problem with PFS was, I thought fixing it would be the easy part. It seems like fixing it well and truly is the hard part. But I have a lot of time on my hands, I'm sure there's a solution, finding it though may take a lot longer than expected. However I do think we are well and truly on the right track.

I think at its core pfs is nerve damage and epigenetic. So recovery is inevitable but very time consuming..


What I mean is that increasing testosterone and increasing "peripherial" 5ar are seperate things... i dont think dht or 5ar2 antagonizes brain 5ar but thats just my hunch

 

[bloom]

When you used those benzos and also valium in particular, would you say you were 100% recovered if you could just stay on valium full time? I'm not sure of all the sides you have so, not sure if spontaneous erection means full reversal of all symptoms (meaning recovered or just feel normal again)?

Perhaps not 100% but certainly helped dramatically with libido and mental side effects. I've been on and off Benzo's for about 2 years, the results are always the same. I develop a tolerance, and the improvement in symptoms wear off. Doesn't work in the long term, at least not for me.

 

[TubZy]

I think at its core pfs is nerve damage and epigenetic. So recovery is inevitable but very time consuming..


What I mean is that increasing testosterone and increasing "peripherial" 5ar are seperate things... i dont think dht or 5ar2 antagonizes brain 5ar but thats just my hunch

Etifoxine regenerates nerves as well. I wonder if it does it through the method of it being pro GABA, pro neurosteroid etc. since finasteride can actually damage nerves and it does the opposite of etifoxine. So again just another benefit of etifoxine that normal benzos don't have.

Etifoxine improves peripheral nerve regeneration and functional recovery

Finasteride and damaged nerves

Finasteride Causes Physical Damage To Nerves, Depression, ED, Steroid Imbalance

 

[bloom]

Etifoxine regenerates nerves as well. I wonder if it does it through the method of it being pro GABA, pro neurosteroid etc. since finasteride can actually damage nerves and it does the opposite of etifoxine. So again just another benefit of etifoxine that normal benzos don't have.

Etifoxine improves peripheral nerve regeneration and functional recovery

I've been on Etifoxine for a few days now, at first it gave me this painful 'nerve sensation' all over my body for the first two days. Now when I take it, it gives me this pleasant 'nerve like' tingling sensation.

 

[TubZy]

Wow, I guess I didn't read through it, well what do you know the nerve regneration benefits are from the increase in neurosteroids etifoxine provides.

This mechanism, according to the concept of neurosteroids (16), is likely responsible for the increase of neurosteroid levels observed in the brain 0.5 h after administration of 50 mg/kg of etifoxine (15) and in peripheral nerves (C.G., M.S., and G.S.-G., unpublished data). We now report that etifoxine exerts remarkable beneficial effects on axonal regrowth and on macrophage responses after peripheral nerve injury. Moreover, its administration to the lesioned sciatic nerve not only increases the rate but also the extent of functional recovery.