The problem with Peat principles

[GreekDemiGod]

1. Peat recommends Higher carbs than fats and high Calcium intake, yet Calcium rich foods are rich in fat(whole milk, cheeses). Skim milk is not found in nature. A high Calcium intake comes hand in hand with fat intake
2. Haidut recommends high carb/ sugar and moderate SFA. Yet the most nutrient dense foods are high in fat and protein.
3. Haidut says over 30% of fats will give you fatty liver, and recommends restricting fats to under 20% or under. Yet you need choline from eggs to avoid fatty liver, but eggs are high in fat.
4. Generally, Peat recommends high consumption of nutrient-void/ weak foods(sugars, fruits), and moderating or restricting consumption of nutrient dense foods(animal protein and fats)

 

[Perry Staltic]

I wouldn't call fruits nutrient-void/weak

 

[GreekDemiGod]

I wouldn't call fruits nutrient-void/weak

That’s somewhat true.

 

[Nomane Euger]

1. Peat recommends Higher carbs than fats and high Calcium intake, yet Calcium rich foods are rich in fat(whole milk, cheeses). Skim milk is not found in nature. A high Calcium intake comes hand in hand with fat intake

it does not matter if skimmed milk is not found in "nature",and even considering this faulty reasoning "nature better than synthetic,ancestral better than modern"human beings are part of nature,any new phenomenon that is caused by living beings,including human beings,is part of nature,an animal make a new poison,nature,humans make a new process to refine milk and make skimmed milk,thats nature.

certains fruits and vegetables are high enough in calcium to get the benefits associated to it,depending on what you consider foods,bones are high in calcium so,no,a high calcium diet do not necessary come hand and hand with fat or high fat intake.

2. Haidut recommends high carb/ sugar and moderate SFA. Yet the most nutrient dense foods are high in fat and protein.

Haidut is not Ray peat,and not the person who defines "ray peat principles".
No,the most nutrient dense foods are not necessary high in fat,not necessary high in protein,and not necessary high in both at the same time.most people i have encountered can experiece the highest degree of benefit from foods that are rich in protein in "moderate ray peat quantity"that he has been recommanding

3. Haidut says over 30% of fats will give you fatty liver, and recommends restricting fats to under 20% or under. Yet you need choline from eggs to avoid fatty liver, but eggs are high in fat.

Where does haidut stated that"over 30% of fats will give you fatty liver"?No,you dont need choline from eggs to avoid fatty liver,from what do you base this claim?
even if you assume that you need dietary choline in the quantitty found in eggs to not get fatty liver,other foods are high enough in choline according to "data bases" such as liver,kidneys,brain,milk,meat.

4. Generally, Peat recommends high consumption of nutrient-void/ weak foods(sugars, fruits), and moderating or restricting consumption of nutrient dense foods(animal protein and fats)

No,sugar and fruits are not the same,and certains fruits can be "nutrient full" and "potent" foods.

You said yourself a few weeks agos that canned peaches is the food that feel the most "nourishing"to your digestion,beyond any other foods including the animals foods you were already consuming,while animal meat and fat were sitting in your stomach,how do you deal with this paradox between your claims and the reality of what you experienced?

how is that wrong that according to you ray peat recommend to moderate "nutrient dense foods(animal protein and fat)",specifically when yourself you said that animal protein and fats feel like it stay in your stomach forever,do you consider that recommanding to moderate or restrict something that feel like it stay in your stomach forever is a bad recommandation,do you think its good to feel that food stay in your stomach forever?and how recommanding to moderate red meat to the amount that will potentially make you experience most of the benefits from it,with potentially the least negatives side effect is a problematic advice?wich nutrients that are high in high fat sources that you can not get in others foods that do not have much fat according to you?

 

[Ben.]

1. Peat recommends Higher carbs than fats and high Calcium intake, yet Calcium rich foods are rich in fat(whole milk, cheeses). Skim milk is not found in nature. A high Calcium intake comes hand in hand with fat intake
2. Haidut recommends high carb/ sugar and moderate SFA. Yet the most nutrient dense foods are high in fat and protein.
3. Haidut says over 30% of fats will give you fatty liver, and recommends restricting fats to under 20% or under. Yet you need choline from eggs to avoid fatty liver, but eggs are high in fat.
4. Generally, Peat recommends high consumption of nutrient-void/ weak foods(sugars, fruits), and moderating or restricting consumption of nutrient dense foods(animal protein and fats)

Is Haidut's opinion the same as Peat?


I think the biggest issue with any diet or foods is that people forget that individual context matters the most. No matter the "science". In all diets or lifestyles i came across, people seem to do them due to belief as a result of how it made them feel and every information benefiting said diet is gospel preached across rooftops rather than understanding that it was perhaps just the right thing at that time and place.

 

[Peater]

You do have a point. OK sources other than dairy are available, so why the focus on dairy? (Which as you say needs to be processed in some way to make it lower fat, whether that is good or bad)

 

[BRBsavinWorld]

1. Peat recommends Higher carbs than fats and high Calcium intake, yet Calcium rich foods are rich in fat(whole milk, cheeses). Skim milk is not found in nature. A high Calcium intake comes hand in hand with fat intake

Green Vegetables, once boiled, can be amazing sources of calcium without anti-nutrients and estrogen. I imagine the perfect diet to fall closely to high dairy, high fruit, and medium boiled veggies and nose to tale animals (for instance, brains are one of the highest sources of youth hormones, according to Peat... that could be a freakin supplement of nature, lol!).

Not much research has gone into the calcium contents of unconsumed organs... I've always wondered about that, as well

 

[EustaceBagge]

1. Peat recommends Higher carbs than fats and high Calcium intake, yet Calcium rich foods are rich in fat(whole milk, cheeses). Skim milk is not found in nature. A high Calcium intake comes hand in hand with fat intake
2. Haidut recommends high carb/ sugar and moderate SFA. Yet the most nutrient dense foods are high in fat and protein.
3. Haidut says over 30% of fats will give you fatty liver, and recommends restricting fats to under 20% or under. Yet you need choline from eggs to avoid fatty liver, but eggs are high in fat.
4. Generally, Peat recommends high consumption of nutrient-void/ weak foods(sugars, fruits), and moderating or restricting consumption of nutrient dense foods(animal protein and fats)

You people overcomplicate stuff. Ray Peat is about stress management for people that are 1 foot in the grave but don't know it.

Most people have stress to spare, and learning your own body will do you good in the long run. Just experiment and see what works for you while basing yourself on Peat's principles as much as possible.

Fruit doesn't work for me for example, but I like high dairy diets with meat and very very little vegetables. Almost ketolike but my carbs are high through rice/pasta/milk.

I found out my digestion time is quick (less than 1 day), no bloating, and perfect stools (1 large piece that is gone in 10 seconds max with no wipe required). Very strange considering I barely eat fiber.

I got to this point through a lot of experimentation and encourage you to do the same.

 

[Ulysses]

1. Peat recommends Higher carbs than fats and high Calcium intake, yet Calcium rich foods are rich in fat(whole milk, cheeses). Skim milk is not found in nature. A high Calcium intake comes hand in hand with fat intake

Skim milk is not "found in nature" but is very much a traditional food. It's what you have left over after skimming cream off the top to make butter, etc. People from ancestral cultures drank it all the time.

2. Haidut recommends high carb/ sugar and moderate SFA. Yet the most nutrient dense foods are high in fat and protein.

The human metabolism was calibrated for this macronutrient profile at a time when all foods were significantly more nutrient dense than they are today. The nutritional quality of food has declined precipitously even in the last 100 years.

3. Haidut says over 30% of fats will give you fatty liver, and recommends restricting fats to under 20% or under. Yet you need choline from eggs to avoid fatty liver, but eggs are high in fat.

2-4 eggs is more than enough choline

 

[Ritchie]

1. Peat recommends Higher carbs than fats and high Calcium intake, yet Calcium rich foods are rich in fat(whole milk, cheeses). Skim milk is not found in nature. A high Calcium intake comes hand in hand with fat intake

He recommends high calcium mainly in order to balance out the ratio to phosphorus. High phosphorus foods are mainly the animal protein rich foods. Cut down your protein intake and you will mostly eliminate that issue and won't need to consume copious amounts of calcium to balance it all out.. then a glass or two of full cream milk is fine, and won't add too much fat to your overall diet.

2. Haidut recommends high carb/ sugar and moderate SFA. Yet the most nutrient dense foods are high in fat and protein.

What do you mean the "most nutrient dense foods"? What do you think a nutrient is? Definition : "a substance that provides nourishment essential for the maintenance of life and for growth." Carbohydrates from all sources are very nutrient dense, arguably the most. As far as protein, you only need a certain amount (which is very easy to get) and after that it is not beneficial anymore but rather works to the body's detriment. Same with fat.

As far as micro nutrients go, dont worry about them so much - focus on your macros. Do an experiment and plug your food into an app like chronometer or something similar, I would be amazed if you were lacking any micros. Only worry about addressing them if there is actually a gap somewhere.

3. Haidut says over 30% of fats will give you fatty liver, and recommends restricting fats to under 20% or under. Yet you need choline from eggs to avoid fatty liver, but eggs are high in fat.

How much choline do you think you need? One egg would be plenty. There is also plenty of choline in other food sources like mushrooms and potatoes for example.

4. Generally, Peat recommends high consumption of nutrient-void/ weak foods(sugars, fruits), and moderating or restricting consumption of nutrient dense foods(animal protein and fats)

"Nutrient-void/weak foods" - I addressed this in the second point. Sugars, fruits and other carbohydrates are the most nutrient dense foods.

 

[ReSTART]

you have 2493 posts, joined 2019 and dont understand basic nutrition.

 

[ddjd]

Interesting take because I definitely got so fat on a peat diet


View: https://youtu.be/yhulQ0XuAPM

 

[EustaceBagge]

Interesting take because I definitely got so fat on a peat diet


View: https://youtu.be/yhulQ0XuAPM

The year is 2022 and we still have people like you that disregard calories and think a diet will magically cure their weight problems.

Even on the perfect diet 12000 kcal a day is just going to make you obese, as an extreme example.

Sure, a diet that speeds up metabolism may cause better weight loss, but at the same time you can't beat calories in calories out.

 

[Limon9]

1. Peat recommends Higher carbs than fats and high Calcium intake, yet Calcium rich foods are rich in fat(whole milk, cheeses). Skim milk is not found in nature. A high Calcium intake comes hand in hand with fat intake
2. Haidut recommends high carb/ sugar and moderate SFA. Yet the most nutrient dense foods are high in fat and protein.
3. Haidut says over 30% of fats will give you fatty liver, and recommends restricting fats to under 20% or under. Yet you need choline from eggs to avoid fatty liver, but eggs are high in fat.
4. Generally, Peat recommends high consumption of nutrient-void/ weak foods(sugars, fruits), and moderating or restricting consumption of nutrient dense foods(animal protein and fats)

RP: "When we realize that our human nature is problematic, we can begin to explore our best potentials."

RP: "I have heard from several people that they think I recommend drinking whole milk, which I don't, because the amount of fat in whole milk is very likely to be fattening when a person is using it to get the needed protein and calcium. When a person wants to lose excess fat, limiting the diet to low fat milk, eggs, orange juice, and a daily carrot or two, will provide the essential nutrients without excess calories."

RP: "When there is more carbon dioxide in the body fluids, calcium carbonate can be deposited in the bones (Messier, et al., 1979). Increased carbon dioxide could account for a prolonged negative phosphate balance, by taking its place in the bones in combination with calcium and magnesium. Another important effect of carbon dioxide is in the regulation of both calcium and phosphate, by increasing the absorption and retention of calcium (Canzanello, et al., 1995), and by increasing the excretion of phosphate. . . . The foods naturally highest in phosphate, relative to calcium, are cereals, legumes, meats, and fish. Many prepared foods contain added phosphate. Foods with a higher, safer ratio of calcium to phosphate are leaves, such as kale, turnip greens, and beet greens, and many fruits, milk, and cheese. Coffee, besides being a good source of magnesium, is probably helpful for lowering phosphate, by its antagonism to adenosine (Coulson, et al., 1991). Although increased phosphate generally causes vascular calcification (increasing rigidity, with increased systolic blood pressure), when a high level of dietary phosphate comes from milk and cheese, it is epidemiologically associated with reduced blood pressure (Takeda, et al., 2012)."

RP: "At the time people were growing their large brains they lived in the tropics. I suggest that in this time before the development of grain-based agriculture, they ate a diet that was relatively free of unsaturated fats and low in iron--based on tropical fruits. . . . As a source of protein, milk is uniquely low in its iron content. Potatoes, because of the high quality of their protein, are probably relatively free of toxic signal-substances. Many tropical fruits, besides having relatively saturated fats, are also low in iron, and often contain important quantities of amino acids and proteins.

The problem with anti-Peat principles is that the people espousing them have broken intestines and haven't studied anything.

 

[Vins7]

You people overcomplicate stuff. Ray Peat is about stress management for people that are 1 foot in the grave but don't know it.

Most people have stress to spare, and learning your own body will do you good in the long run. Just experiment and see what works for you while basing yourself on Peat's principles as much as possible.

Fruit doesn't work for me for example, but I like high dairy diets with meat and very very little vegetables. Almost ketolike but my carbs are high through rice/pasta/milk.

I found out my digestion time is quick (less than 1 day), no bloating, and perfect stools (1 large piece that is gone in 10 seconds max with no wipe required). Very strange considering I barely eat fiber.

I got to this point through a lot of experimentation and encourage you to do the same.

What were your symptoms after eating fruits? And what foods were giving you bloating and bad stools?

 

[EustaceBagge]

What were your symptoms after eating fruits? And what foods were giving you bloating and bad stools?

Most bad experience was with fruit that was similar with apples. Now I actually eat bananas regularly and never had problems with oranges etc.

And with fruits I meant vegetables lol. Here again, broccoli in low amounts work, and same with cooked onions/garlic, but most other vegetables either need to be perfectly soft or I just see it back in my stool.

So for clarification I meant vegetables. I guess it is the excessive fiber.

 

[FrenchKiwi]

You people overcomplicate stuff. Ray Peat is about stress management for people that are 1 foot in the grave but don't know it.

Most people have stress to spare, and learning your own body will do you good in the long run. Just experiment and see what works for you while basing yourself on Peat's principles as much as possible.

Fruit doesn't work for me for example, but I like high dairy diets with meat and very very little vegetables. Almost ketolike but my carbs are high through rice/pasta/milk.

I found out my digestion time is quick (less than 1 day), no bloating, and perfect stools (1 large piece that is gone in 10 seconds max with no wipe required). Very strange considering I barely eat fiber.

I got to this point through a lot of experimentation and encourage you to do the same.

Great Post and I agree that self experimentation is important. I am focusing on finding foods that make me feel good, digest well and allow me to effortlessly stay at an appropriate level of calories for my body. I also feel really good on red meat, dairy, especially cottage cheese and yogurt, and starch. Vegetables do nothing for me except add variety. The only fruit that doesn't make me ravenous is banana. Do you drink coffee? Can you outline a typical day of eating?

 

[EustaceBagge]

Great Post and I agree that self experimentation is important. I am focusing on finding foods that make me feel good, digest well and allow me to effortlessly stay at an appropriate level of calories for my body. I also feel really good on red meat, dairy, especially cottage cheese and yogurt, and starch. Vegetables do nothing for me except add variety. The only fruit that doesn't make me ravenous is banana. Do you drink coffee? Can you outline a typical day of eating?

Breakfast - Full fat quark (8%) 500 grams
Lunch - Shake (2 bananas, 40 gram heavy cream, 300-400ml milk) with 3 eggs cooked in butter and 2 slices of whitebread
Dinner - Rice/Pasta + red meat, maybe very little vegetables that are completely soggy otherwise I won't touch them
Pre sleep (if im hungry) - Milk with cookies

With each meal I take 2 tablespoons of apple cider vinegar, really helps with digestion.

I also tried combining red meat with some gelatin through various methods like dissolving it in water, making solid pudding... but none of them digest well so now I take glycine 2-3 grams with the red meat. Interestingly, people state that glycine is calming, and I tend to agree if it is taken alone. But when I combine it with red meat I feel nothing, so it really does balance out amino acids like methionine in my experience.

Also if I sweat a lot after workouts I drink saltwater.

My macro's are somewhat balanced in that I am not completely carb heavy or protein heavy or fat heavy, but almost everything is saturated.

 

[FrenchKiwi]

Breakfast - Full fat quark (8%) 500 grams
Lunch - Shake (2 bananas, 40 gram heavy cream, 300-400ml milk) with 3 eggs cooked in butter and 2 slices of whitebread
Dinner - Rice/Pasta + red meat, maybe very little vegetables that are completely soggy otherwise I won't touch them
Pre sleep (if im hungry) - Milk with cookies

With each meal I take 2 tablespoons of apple cider vinegar, really helps with digestion.

I also tried combining red meat with some gelatin through various methods like dissolving it in water, making solid pudding... but none of them digest well so now I take glycine 2-3 grams with the red meat. Interestingly, people state that glycine is calming, and I tend to agree if it is taken alone. But when I combine it with red meat I feel nothing, so it really does balance out amino acids like methionine in my experience.

Also if I sweat a lot after workouts I drink saltwater.

My macro's are somewhat balanced in that I am not completely carb heavy or protein heavy or fat heavy, but almost everything is saturated.

Holy ***t that sounds deeeeeelicious. I could eat that everyday! It sounds like you are really dialled in without being orthorexic about food choices. I want to be like that too. Enjoying my food is so important and I don't want to restrict my homemade sourdough or homemade cottage cheese and cheesecake. But I also want to meet my aesthetic goals

 

[FrenchKiwi]

Breakfast - Full fat quark (8%) 500 grams
Lunch - Shake (2 bananas, 40 gram heavy cream, 300-400ml milk) with 3 eggs cooked in butter and 2 slices of whitebread
Dinner - Rice/Pasta + red meat, maybe very little vegetables that are completely soggy otherwise I won't touch them
Pre sleep (if im hungry) - Milk with cookies

With each meal I take 2 tablespoons of apple cider vinegar, really helps with digestion.

I also tried combining red meat with some gelatin through various methods like dissolving it in water, making solid pudding... but none of them digest well so now I take glycine 2-3 grams with the red meat. Interestingly, people state that glycine is calming, and I tend to agree if it is taken alone. But when I combine it with red meat I feel nothing, so it really does balance out amino acids like methionine in my experience.

Also if I sweat a lot after workouts I drink saltwater.

My macro's are somewhat balanced in that I am not completely carb heavy or protein heavy or fat heavy, but almost everything is saturated.

What about tea or coffee?