Masterjohn Right? Treating Fatty Liver

[yerrag]

The first hour of this podcast (https://peterattiamd.com/chrismasterjohn/) with Masterjohn discusses the subject in more detail than his LITE video. @ecstatichamster

We discuss:

• Chris’s background, falling in love with biochemistry, and decision to pursue research over medicine [7:45];
• Choline: what it is, why it is important, and how a deficiency can cause non-alcoholic fatty liver disease [11:45];
• NAFLD: increasing prevalence and potential causes [25:00];
• TMAO: Should we be worried about the TMAO content in choline and our foods? [39:15];
• Types of fatty acids: How they may predispose us to different types of illnesses [53:30];
• Why don’t we see low VLDL in patients with NAFLD? [59:45]

Thanks for the link. Chris talks about choline supplementation (or from food) here to as much as 1200 mg/day. He says an egg provides only about 150mg of it. I'm just not sure if this is a therapeutic dosage, but I imagine it is since taking this much choline in a regular day from food seems to be a lot considering you'd have to have an outsize portions in eggs, milk, and liver in a day.

He says choline is needed to transport trigylycerides out of the liver, and without it triglycerides accumulate in the liver.

I wonder if there's still other factors involved though. But didn't Ray Peat mention the role of PUFAs in cholesterol turning into cholesteryl esters? The polyunsaturated fatty acids that accumulate with age have been known for about 80 years to be the main source of this material. These fatty acids inhibit the synthesis of cholesterol and increase its conversion to cholesterol esters. pg. 5 Ray Peat Newsletter Nov 2018.

And Chris also has his say about cholesteryl esters in the liver, in this post by Mito:
Nov 2018: Dr. Peat Talks About Cholesterol Esters Causing Aging

 

[Tarmander]

My appetite is close to zero at all time of the day, even after 20 hours of not eating, just nausea.

I might listen to my body and fast until I recover appetite, even if it has to take 5, 7, heck 10 days.

Fasting was a great way to destroy my appetite for anything. You can also read many account of people who get into fasting slowly losing their appetite overtime. "Fasting becomes easier, I don't even get hungry anymore."

 

[LUH 3417]

@RisingSun maybe you can try salty mineral broth or beef broth. Salt seems to increase my appetite. I notice if I start eating a meal and am full quickly, adding more salt to it increases my hunger and desire to eat. I believe salt lowers serotonin.

Effect of dietary salt restriction on urinary serotonin and 5-hydroxyindoleacetic acid excretion in man. - PubMed - NCBI
RESULTS: During the low-salt diet, 24-h urinary excretion of serotonin increased by 42%, accompanied by a 52% rise in the excretion of 5-HIAA. Salt restriction also increased noradrenaline excretion by 77% and VMA excretion by 40%. Regression analysis revealed a strong positive relationship between the excretion of serotonin and of noradrenaline (r = 0.84, P < 0.001) and between that of 5-HIAA and of VMA (r = 0.74, P < 0.001).

 

[tankasnowgod]

Fasting was a great way to destroy my appetite for anything. You can also read many account of people who get into fasting slowly losing their appetite overtime. "Fasting becomes easier, I don't even get hungry anymore."

Ha, that was not my experience with IF. It did get easier with time. But when I ate.... I ATE! The first few months were wonderful, doing 18 hour-ish fasts most weekdays, having huge meals, eating to my hearts content in the eating window, and still losing fat. Seemed to work perfectly with my early job shift. On weekends, it was basically breakfast and an early dinner, with a mid afternoon coffee, and drinks in the evening. It was only when I "really tried to dial it in" and forced it constantly that I started getting freezing cold hands and feet and such.

 

[InChristAlone]

I mean everyone is different. But for women I'd advise against fasting as a way to get an appetite. Eating disorders have the highest mortality rate of any mental health problem and extreme dieting like fasting is a great way to get an eating disorder. A good friend of mine lost their daughter to anorexia. I view food as essential to life now. especially especially especially for women with no appetite.

 

[RisingSun]

My 2c: I think fasting in any circumstance is generally a Band-Aid solution. I have no doubt it can alleviate some problems you did to yourself (ate something you shouldn't have...) but if you have to fast all the time to be healthy then maybe it's time to take a closer look at what you're ingesting and otherwise what your lifestyle looks like. All of us need energy to survive whether we're fat or lean, there really is no exception. It's true that abstaining from harmful foods may be beneficial in a specific context, but then, one should stop eating the harmful foods in the first place then and replace them with healing foods.

Very common-sensed.

The introduction of a sustainable diet that makes you function well in the mind and in the body is a must.

However I’m a firm believer that all the past mistakes (whether it be medicational or dietary) are firmly anchored in the fatty tissues, and no amount of exercise will rid them.

The two times I did a 4 day dry-fast (no food, no water, no shower) I felt like a new person mentally and physically. My thoughts were clear, calm and sharp, my digestion was good, and there was no lactic acid build up when worked out.

The changes lasted for about 15 days before I went back to my older self, while still keeping some of the mental clarity.

And I think I kept some of it thanks to the toxins that were burnt within the dysfunctioning cells that are incinerated first when dry fasting.

Each fast seems like it’s ridding my body of toxins a little bit more everytime.

 

[Tarmander]

Ha, that was not my experience with IF. It did get easier with time. But when I ate.... I ATE! The first few months were wonderful, doing 18 hour-ish fasts most weekdays, having huge meals, eating to my hearts content in the eating window, and still losing fat. Seemed to work perfectly with my early job shift. On weekends, it was basically breakfast and an early dinner, with a mid afternoon coffee, and drinks in the evening. It was only when I "really tried to dial it in" and forced it constantly that I started getting freezing cold hands and feet and such.

I never did IF. I imagine that would definitely give you some hunger signals with that condensed feeding window. I was talking more about traditional fasting.

 

[Vinny]

Very common-sensed.

The introduction of a sustainable diet that makes you function well in the mind and in the body is a must.

However I’m a firm believer that all the past mistakes (whether it be medicational or dietary) are firmly anchored in the fatty tissues, and no amount of exercise will rid them.

The two times I did a 4 day dry-fast (no food, no water, no shower) I felt like a new person mentally and physically. My thoughts were clear, calm and sharp, my digestion was good, and there was no lactic acid build up when worked out.

The changes lasted for about 15 days before I went back to my older self, while still keeping some of the mental clarity.

And I think I kept some of it thanks to the toxins that were burnt within the dysfunctioning cells that are incinerated first when dry fasting.

Each fast seems like it’s ridding my body of toxins a little bit more everytime.

Amazing!

 

[InChristAlone]

Very common-sensed.

The introduction of a sustainable diet that makes you function well in the mind and in the body is a must.

However I’m a firm believer that all the past mistakes (whether it be medicational or dietary) are firmly anchored in the fatty tissues, and no amount of exercise will rid them.

The two times I did a 4 day dry-fast (no food, no water, no shower) I felt like a new person mentally and physically. My thoughts were clear, calm and sharp, my digestion was good, and there was no lactic acid build up when worked out.

The changes lasted for about 15 days before I went back to my older self, while still keeping some of the mental clarity.

And I think I kept some of it thanks to the toxins that were burnt within the dysfunctioning cells that are incinerated first when dry fasting.

Each fast seems like it’s ridding my body of toxins a little bit more everytime.

That sounds enticing. But then why do you have no appetite and nausea?

 

[RisingSun]

That sounds enticing. But then why do you have no appetite and nausea?

Maybe the fast cleans my liver. I have no idea. If I did I would already have made a long lasting change and not be asking around on forums

 

[aquaman]

Maybe the fast cleans my liver. I have no idea. If I did I would already have made a long lasting change and not be asking around on forums

Sounds like you’ve totally ranked your metabolism and so your body is freaking out.

Surely there’s something small you can eat? yo may need to force yourself to eat 1-200 calories every hour for a few days to kick it back in

 

[jet9]

Bump

 

[stargazer1111]

He's partially right, the issue with fructose is it needs choline to be exported from the liver as cholesterol. Without sufficient choline, the fructose is converted to liver fat. Eating liver, eggs, and dairy will give you plenty of choline, I also add about 700mgs of choline l-bitartrate to a smoothie I drink daily. Choline is essential for deactivating estrogen as well, so it's pretty essential to the organism. I think another big underlying factor to fatty liver is just a caloric intake that exceeds your demand, whether it be fat or sugar.

This is not true. Radioisotope tracer studies have shown that, in humans, only 2-3% of fructose becomes liver fat. The majority is either converted into glucose or oxidized directly. The remaining amount, around 15%, is converted into lactate.

 

[Bluemachine]

Try d-limonene and something bitter like wormwood.

Thanks,

I purchased wormwood, clove and black walnut essential oils for a parasite cleanse that I didn’t finish, I might as well use them[/QUOTE]
What was your experience using these 3 herbs?

 

[Hgreen56]

What really causes fatty liver?

I think I have a fatty liver but not sure.

Here is what Masterjohn says in this video.

Fatty liver is caused by too much fructose/sugar and fat. Mostly fat people have fatty liver.

(I’m not fat, but I’m 15 pounds overweight probably.)

Eat nothing but starch (avoid fructose/sugar) and protein
Eat several eggs a day for choline
Eat very low fat proteins
Eat cups of dark colored vegetables raw or semi raw, for “bulk” and folate (or use legumes)

That is supposed to help get rid of fatty liver.

What I’m not sure of is this.

1. What causes it? I have a feeling that PUFAs are involved

2. Can you get rid of it with a no fat diet high in starch, really?

3. Must you avoid fructose/sugar during this time?

Here is the video:

i dont have read this topic but yess he is right.
When i got high sugar diet, my liver starts to hurt as hell over a month or so.
i tried to solve this problems vit caffeine, asprin, niacinamide and lot other stuff.. no results
When i got back to high starch and ditch't al de fruit and juice, problems solved and never come back.
Also not when i did go high starch, high fat. Its the fructose that's causing the trouble.
Also @tyw has explain this in one of his topics how fructose is bad for the liver and how its fattening for the body.

Ray peat is wrong again sad enough.

 

[Maljam]

i dont have read this topic but yess he is right.
When i got high sugar diet, my liver starts to hurt as hell over a month or so.
i tried to solve this problems vit caffeine, asprin, niacinamide and lot other stuff.. no results
When i got back to high starch and ditch't al de fruit and juice, problems solved and never come back.
Also not when i did go high starch, high fat. Its the fructose that's causing the trouble.
Also @tyw has explain this in one of his topics how fructose is bad for the liver and how its fattening for the body.

Ray peat is wrong again sad enough.

I developed fatty liver eating a high sugar Peat inspired diet too unfortunately.

 

[Hgreen56]

I developed fatty liver eating a high sugar Peat inspired diet too unfortunately.

yeah i have heard this a lot on this forum.

 

[jet9]

i dont have read this topic but yess he is right.
When i got high sugar diet, my liver starts to hurt as hell over a month or so.
i tried to solve this problems vit caffeine, asprin, niacinamide and lot other stuff.. no results
When i got back to high starch and ditch't al de fruit and juice, problems solved and never come back.
Also not when i did go high starch, high fat. Its the fructose that's causing the trouble.
Also @tyw has explain this in one of his topics how fructose is bad for the liver and how its fattening for the body.

Ray peat is wrong again sad enough.

What sources of starch work best for you?
Did you remove fruit completely?

 

[Hgreen56]

What sources of starch work best for you?
Did you remove fruit completely?

Rice and potatoes.
Yess i have quit taking all high fructose foods/fruits and juices. beside the liver pain its gives me more health problems than it solves it.
Still experimenting with milk sugar

 

[Mito]

i dont have read this topic but yess he is right.
When i got high sugar diet, my liver starts to hurt as hell over a month or so.
i tried to solve this problems vit caffeine, asprin, niacinamide and lot other stuff.. no results
When i got back to high starch and ditch't al de fruit and juice, problems solved and never come back.
Also not when i did go high starch, high fat. Its the fructose that's causing the trouble.
Also @tyw has explain this in one of his topics how fructose is bad for the liver and how its fattening for the body.

Ray peat is wrong again sad enough.

“After reading the research reviewed in that post, I'm quite convinced that the development of fatty liver is pretty simple: anything that increases the amount of energy that the liver needs to process forms the first part; anything that impairs the ability of the liver to export that energy forms the second part. High intakes of total calories, sugar, fat, or alcohol can all contribute to fatty liver in animals. But the king of all nutrients needed to export that energy as fat, choline, protects against the disease in all of these animal models.

Of course, a high intake of PUFA contributes to the inflammatory component, and when combined with other toxic factors may also contribute to the fatty component by preventing the liver from exporting its fat.”
Does Choline Deficiency Contribute to Fatty Liver in Humans | Chris Masterjohn, PhD

If you keep fructose below 1 g/kg, it should not even reach the liver.

“High doses of fructose (≥1 g/kg) overwhelm intestinal fructose absorption and clearance, resulting in fructose reaching both the liver and colonic microbiota. Intestinal fructose clearance is augmented both by prior exposure to fructose and by feeding. We propose that the small intestine shields the liver from otherwise toxic fructose exposure.”
The Small Intestine Converts Dietary Fructose Into Glucose And Organic Acids

“Fructose consumption at moderate levels of intake do not adversely effect body weight or blood chemistry based on the current data. Obscenely high levels of intake (>150 grams per day) may have undesirable health effects”
Fructose: Burying the Boogeyman - Science Driven Nutrition