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"The Fallacy Of Administering Mixtures Of Crystalline Vitamins Alone In Nutritional Deficiency"

Discussion in 'Water-Soluble Vitamins' started by Amazoniac, May 1, 2018.

  1. sugarbabe

    sugarbabe Member

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    Yeah maybe when his daughter and son in law moved in to help out he felt he couldn't be himself? So Chinese medicine would say he isn't able to speak his truth thus the throat chakra being off balance.
     
  2. OP
    Amazoniac

    Amazoniac Member

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    Interrelationships between biotin, choline and other B-vitamins and the occurrence of fatty liver and kidney syndrome and sudden death syndrome in broiler chickens

    "[..]the addition of extra quantities of B-vitamins to biotin-deficient diets has an adverse effect on biotin metabolism and the incidence of FLKS [fatty liver and kidney syndrome]."

    "[..]choline alone, though not cyanocobalamin, can increase mortality[.]" "[..]a mixture of other B-vitamins could enhance this effect when provided in conjunction with choline[.]"

    "[..]both choline and a multivitamin supplement separately increased mortality[.]"

    "The interaction between biotin and the other vitamins takes place in the birds rather than in the diets since the biotin contents of the diets, measured at the time they were fed, were unaffected by the presence of other vitamins. Thus biotin was not destroyed by choline which is a potentially caustic substance and is known to destabilize other vitamins, especially in the presence of moisture (Klaui, 1975). The interaction between the vitamins in the bird appeared to enhance the severity of the existing biotin deficiency rather than the absolute requirement. Thus growth rate and blood PC activity were decreased and FLKS mortality was increased by supplementation of the low biotin diet but these aspects were unaffected by the presence of other vitamins in the biotin-supplemented diets."

    "Other instances of one vitamin enhancing the deficiency of another are known: in pigs, Cunha et al. (1948) found that the severity of biotin deficiency was increased by the provision of extra folic acid and cyanocobalamin. Interactions between the latter two vitamins and choline in methyl group metabolism are well documented but the relationship between biotin and choline or methyl group metabolism is obscure. However, the present results serve as a reminder that B-vitamin supplementation of poultry diets should be aimed at ensuring an adequate metabolic balance in the birds."

    "The aetiology of FLKS is well understood and involves a failure of hepatic gluconeogenesis via pyruvate carboxylase caused by a lack of biotin. When the bird is stressed or fasted, limited reserves of glycogen are consumed and a hypoglycaemia develops which results in morbidity and death in a few hours. In response to the hypoglycaemia, fatty infiltration of tissues is thought to occur (for a review of the biochemical effects of FLKS, see Bannister, 1979)."

    @whitness
     
  3. OP
    Amazoniac

    Amazoniac Member

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  4. OP
    Amazoniac

    Amazoniac Member

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    Liver is very high in B12, which is common to be depleted in sickness. Since liver extracts yield better results when injected, it's possible that it's because of B12, which requires elaborated steps for absorption and repletion can be lengthy. Chris mentioned that its active digestion has limitations, you can't absorb more than 2 mcg through it regardless of the dose. However with insane doses found in supplements, the passive absorption can be significant. Either way, once again it's better to unfurl the doses throughout the day.

    He also suggests adenosyl/hydroxy B12 in case people need to supplement, I don't know why, perhaps because he's actually getting paid.
    But it's worth considering trying some reliable form to rule out if it's not a simple B12 deficiency induced maybe by chronic stress and too much methionine from cheese without as much B12 as it's naturally found in meats.

    The next issue is the copper and vitamin A content of livers.

    Nutrition in Desiccated Liver by Vital Proteids
    Daniel also has a similar image on his page:
    Desiccated liver supplements with the fewest additives - Toxinless

    If you note, to get enough B-vitamins, you'll get a high amount of these. Multiply the serving by 10 and you'll realize that those become limiting, iron starts to annoy and you still don't get an adequate amount of B-vitamins. And that's considering a decent supplement, because there are ones on the market that are mediocre.

    Because of that, it's also possible to note why crystalline vitamins are often required. The amount of thiamin sometimes is so insignificant that doesn't even appear on the label. The niacin content isn't sufficient for its therapeutic purposes. Most of the vitamins directly involved in energy production won't be in satisfactory amounts.

    If liver sufficed, none of the approaches mentioned before would've included the crystalline vitamins as well. Sometimes the companies that prepare extracts already add them, and what they refer to as 'liver extract', is in fact a liver preparation that includes various isolated vitamins.

    On the other hand, the limiting nutrients might not be too troubling because such supplement provides everything in synergy. So it's not possible to expect an equivalent dose of isolated vitamin A to work the same way as the one given in liver.

    So it does provide a foundation, probably including some rarer trace minerals that can affect recovery.

    An aqueous liver extract might discard vitamin A* and maybe increase the proportion of wasser-soluble vitamins to minerals. And as mentioned before, this might help to normalize the copper content to some degree. Not sure. However the more processed it is, the more likely it is to damage nutrients along the way.

    *I wonder how much defatted desiccated whole livers retain.

    Gerson gave patients 2-3 juices daily of pressed 1/2 lb of raw liver (and carrots) and injections one time a day of "crudest liver extract like Lilly No. 370 3cc. combined with vitamin B12 1cc. equal 50 mcg". I have no idea how concentrated those were; with the juice, the meat probably helped to prevent mineral extraction to some degree.

    Out of curiosity because I don't know if this is safe, doesn't seem to be:
    Thankful Expressions: How to Make Desiccated Liver Capsules
     
  5. OP
    Amazoniac

    Amazoniac Member

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    The trouble has been finding a way to reduce copper and some of the vitamin A for more intensive supplementation, ideally without requiring much processing due to the risk of damaging nutrients but also because it's challenging to manipulate a food leaving only what's desirable.

    For comparison, using copper as reference, the serving of the supplement above equates to 3 g of beef liver. It already has 0.4 mg of copper in as little as 3 g. (!) It's obvious that it will limit its use.

    A solution is poultry liver. It's reduced in copper and vitamin A, making it perhaps safer for therapeutic supplementation.
    Although it's reduced in copper, it has more iron. This isn't good, but may not be an issue because even if people consumed a dried amount equivalent to 100 g, that's 12 mg of iron that you can interfere in absorption. Maybe this is reduced in animals that aren't stressed.

    The main challenge would be finding a reliable source, animals that were raised with care and so on. In such animals, the fat composition shouldn't be an issue, but ultimately it can be defatted.
    Risk of infections and contamination should also be reduced, but sterilizing must be important and I don't know how that can affect nutrients. People with weakened livers might be using such supplements, and due to organ affinity, this can be a problem.

    Chicken (left) and Beef (right) - for 100 g
    (blurred but intelligible)

    upload_2018-7-26_7-24-58.pngupload_2018-7-26_7-25-9.png
    upload_2018-7-26_7-25-21.pngupload_2018-7-26_7-25-29.png

    The difference in selenium might disappear when animals are no longer receiving the usual supplements in feed.

    The wasser content might give you an idea of weight if it's dehydrated.

    Any opinions?
     
  6. raypeatclips

    raypeatclips Member

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    I've analysed these before but added lamb liver into the mix, as the those three are very easy for me to purchase. I felt lamb liver was in the middle of the three, and tend to eat that myself. Beef liver I never felt good on, and wondered if the copper was to blame.

    Maybe something to do with the zinc copper ratio?


    https://raypeatforum.com/community/...-me-insane-heartburn.21020/page-2#post-326242
     
  7. OP
    Amazoniac

    Amazoniac Member

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    I wish I knew! :facepalm:

    The lower B12 is not an issue unless people were to inject the supplement. I suspect chickens will have less regardless of their diet for not having rumens and a lot of bactaeria supplying it.

    The cholin is missing, I don't know why they don't include it as standard since niacin you can also synthesize.

    Indeed it might have something to do with ratio, but I don't know if there's a limit for which zinc no longer can balance. The copper content is still very high for lamb.

    The folate content in lamb liver is odd, isn't it? There must be something wrong..
     
  8. raypeatclips

    raypeatclips Member

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    @Amazoniac. Heres a new one for you, using Self Nutrition data this time

    [​IMG]




    Then I'll add the one Cronometer one here for comparison too.

    [​IMG]
     
  9. OP
    Amazoniac

    Amazoniac Member

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    Oh shiτ, the cholin value that I had on Cron-o-meter above (I guess you can activate it on options) was higher than that for kitchen rivel.
    But it's also different from here:
    Concentrations of Choline-Containing Compounds and Betaine in Common Foods | The Journal of Nutrition | Oxford Academic

    The folate content remains high!
    Poultry feed varies more than ruminants', so it should be less predictable.

    Many thanks for taking the time to collect these.
     
  10. Sheila

    Sheila Member

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    Greetings dearests,
    You can all post such interesting material faster than I can think about it, but I am most grateful regardless of that minor trifle. No, Amazoniac I do not mean the dessert, though you doubtless have the copper value for it!
    I am a somewhat wary of uncooked lamb in general because the worm burden in lamb or mutton is likely higher than in beef as the worming regimes and pasture rotation requirements can be beyond many farmers' capabilites let alone pockets. No disrespect is meant by that just that 'best practice' is problematic and the worms are more prevalent due to many factors these days.
    I think at least 6 weeks frozen first would be sensible even if one is going to do an extract; many types of worm egg are microscopic but I believe that such freezing reduces much of the hazard associated with worms at least, and that would be advised for any offal really if being used uncooked.
    Just a thought.
    Thanks again for a most interesting and important thread.
    Sheila
     
  11. lollipop

    lollipop Guest

    @Sheila, I think the worm problem is more then people recognize especially eating out in restaurants and eating raw foods of any sorts or even “rare or medium rare” cooking for meats. My Mom always cautioned about this. I sort of grumbled at her being a bit “over the top”. Now, regrettably, I must admit her better vision and my lack of vision in this regard - lol. How the wheel of life turns...
     
  12. ddjd

    ddjd Member

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    would brewers yeast be a relatively safer option for supplementing choline?
     
  13. OP
    Amazoniac

    Amazoniac Member

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    Honestly, I don't know for sure. But to not leave you emptying the hands:

    Using KAL's nutritional yeast, each serving is about 3 tablespoons (20 g), providing more or less 80 mg of cholin; so around 100 mg for every 25 g of powder. If I'm not wrong, Rajesh recommends for his homemade extract about 4 tablespoons dissolved in wasser. But to make a difference, you'll need at least something like 50 g or more. This might be a problem over time since its inconventients can add up and we might turn into a yeast.
    Possibilities had been envisioned before (Saturation, 2015), and perhaps with a more complete synthetic B-vitamins supplement it's possible to get better results.

    If you search for 'chow, semipurified, synthetic diet'; some publications compare what happens to animals when they're fed different types of diet.

    But nutritional yeast is not just vitamins, it does provide some other nutrients (selenium, molybdenum, zinc, chromium, etc) in available forms as well. There might be a way of purifying it further in labs to discard most of the unwanted, but it can't be any lab to do it, it must require an ideal one.
     
  14. OP
    Amazoniac

    Amazoniac Member

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    I find it much preferable to try to correct what's being difficult to get from the diet through supplements than to force-feed something you don't grave or enjoy just to hit those crimos. If it doesn't work as expected, at least your intuition and the relationship with food aren't affected in a negative way.
     
  15. OP
    Amazoniac

    Amazoniac Member

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  16. Nighteyes

    Nighteyes Member

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    :joyful: haha brilliant metaphor! thanks amazingniac
     
  17. OP
    Amazoniac

    Amazoniac Member

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    I've edited for a better video!
     
  18. Nighteyes

    Nighteyes Member

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    They look like they are having fun as well! I'd take that over a cubicle job in front of a PC any day :D
     
  19. OP
    Amazoniac

    Amazoniac Member

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    They must say the same thing about your job. :ss
     
  20. whit

    whit Member

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    I've left the practice of supplementation up to the birds. They seem to know what they need better than I.
    That said we have had some we've nursed back to health in the past with custard.
    Bugs are a big part of their diet in the summer, yummy!