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"The Fallacy Of Administering Mixtures Of Crystalline Vitamins Alone In Nutritional Deficiency"

Discussion in 'Water-Soluble Vitamins' started by Amazoniac, May 1, 2018.

  1. noordinary

    noordinary Member

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    @Ella @Amazoniac sorry if i missed it, but could you please post the liver juice recipe?
     
  2. OP
    Amazoniac

    Amazoniac Member

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  3. noordinary

    noordinary Member

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  4. Nighteyes

    Nighteyes Member

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    Just wanted to bump this thread because it contain some really good points that I keep forgetting when it comes to supplementation and liver health.. Did anyone come across a good desiccated stomach product? I have been trying to find that without success. It has apparently been used in a few papers for various treatments so it must exist. Maybe just not available to the public...
     
  5. OP
    Amazoniac

    Amazoniac Member

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    The Interrelation of Vitamins - Thomas Moore

    These are all good terms to include when searching:
    "“Interrelation” has been used in a general sense to cover all aspects of interplay between vitamins. “Association” implies that two vitamins are concerned in the same sphere of influence, whether defined physiologically, biochemically, or morphologically, but does not infer a direct chemical or physiological connection, or imply that the requirement of one is necessarily influenced by the intake of the other. “Interaction” is reserved for instances in which a direct connection, either chemical or physiological, between two vitamins has been proved. For interaction in which the requirement of one vitamin is reduced by a liberal intake of another the term “synergism” as used by Hickman (1) may be appropriate. The term “secondary deficiency” means a deficiency of vitamin which is not merely due to a low dietary intake, but which is “conditioned” or aggravated by some other factor, such as an inadequate supply of another vitamin. It is not used in the sense accepted by some workers to designate the less conspicuous of two superimposed deficiencies, for which “concurrent” or “minor” would seem to be more apt descriptions."

    "Already Pavcek and Shull (9) have shown that biotin is inactivated by rancid fats, from which it is protected by tocopherol."

    "[..]it was found by Hopkins (11) that ascorbic acid is rapidly destroyed when exposed to sunlight in the presence of riboflavin."

    "The early attempts of Bentsath, Rusznyak, and Szent-Györgyi (13, 14) to demonstrate that guinea pigs needed an additional vitamin to supplement the action of ascorbic acid did not carry conviction. ZiIva (15) and Moll (16) were both unable to confirm the claims of Szent-Györgyi and his colleagues, who mas himself unable to repeat his experiments (17). Scarborough (18) and Zacho (19), however, confirmed the action of vitamin P, in the form of citrin or other flavone pigments, in maintaining capillary resistance. Citrin alone considerably increased capillary resistance, but the simultaneous presence of both citrin and ascorbic acid was said to be necessary for the maintenance of resistance at its normal level."

    "The preservation of normal powers of dark adaptation is another function in which, according to some workers, more than one vitamin is concerned. Kimble and Gordon (21) found that most individuals in their experiments who had poor dark adaptation and a low level of vitamin A in the blood could be brought into the normal ranges for both these criteria by dosing with vitamin A, Other individuals, however, failed to show the usual response. This led to the belief that other factors must be involved in the utilization of vitamin A for the synthesis of visual purple, and both riboflavin and ascorbic acid were tried as supplements to the action of vitamin A."

    "Several otherwise normal subjects with poor dark adaptation and low blood vitamin A were given 200,000 I.U. of vitamin A daily as halibut liver oil, but failed to respond. It is perhaps rather difficult in the absence of fever or liver disease to understand why the blood vitamin A remained low when such massive doses of halibut liver oil were given, unless the normal post-absorptive rise was intentionally avoided by taking blood samples shortly before administering the daily dose. According to Kimble and Gordon, however, normal values for blood vitamin A and normal dark adaptation were usually restored at once in these cases by giving 1 mg. of pure riboflavin daily in addition to vitamin A. In other subjects who did not benefit from this treatment, satisfactory improvement was obtained by giving ascorbic acid."

    "Pure ascorbic acid, in daily doses of 150 mg., produced as great an improvement in dark adaptation as did daily doses of 24,000 I.U. of vitamin A. Examination of dietary histories appeared to indicate that good adaptation was invariably shown by subjects with good intake of vitamin A and ascorbic acid, and poor adaptation by those with low intakes, although there was a large intermediate group impossible to interpret."

    "Both riboflavin and niacinamide are [] known to participate in carbohydrate metabolism as essential components of dehydrogenase systems. Since the discovery of the old “yellow enzyme” of Warburg and Christian (34, 35, 36, 37), numerous other flavoproteins have been found in which riboflavin constitutes part of the mono- or di-nucleotides which act as the prosthetic group of these enzymes. Niacinamide also fills familiar roles as a constituent of di-phosphopyridine nucleotide, the coenzyme 1 of Euler (38), and of tri-phosphopyridine nucleotide, the coenzyme 2 of Warburg (35, 39, 40)."

    "[..]the coenzyme concerned in the oxidative deamination of a-amino acids (41) has been shown by Warburg and Christian (42) to be a dinucleotide containing riboflavin. Ratner, Nocito, and Green (43) have recently discovered an oxidase for glycine which is also a flavoprotein."

    "Sure and Ford (44) have found that in rats deficient in thiamine the riboflavin content of the tissues was slightly decreased, while the excretion of riboflavin in the urine was much increased, particularly in chronic deficiency (45). This suggests a poor assimilation of riboflavin. On the other hand, deficiency of riboflavin caused a slight decrease of thiamine in the tissues, although its excretion in the urine was not altered. Approaching the problem from a slightly different angle, Supplee, Jensen, Render, and Kahlenberg (46) found that deficiency of thiamine interfered with the mobilization of riboflavin in the liver which, normally occurs during the digestion and assimilation of food. This mobilization was also affected in deficiency of pantothenic acid, but not of pyridoxin. According to Singher and his colleagues (47) , however, deficiency of thiamine caused an increase of riboflavin in the liver, while conversely in riboflavin deficiency the thiamine content of this organ is increased." "While, therefore, opinions seem to differ on one point, i.e., the effect of thiamine deficiency on the riboflavin content of the liver, there seems to be agreement that the metabolism and storage of these two vitamins are to some degree interrelated."

    "It may be recalled that early work by Hartwell (48) and by Reader and Drummond (49), before the recognition of the multiplicity of the vitamin B complex, showed that when the protein content of the basal diet was increased it was necessary also to raise the vitamin B allowance in order to maintain a good rate of growth. More recent investigations (50, 51) have suggested that riboflavin is necessary for the assimilation of protein, and its resynthesis into tissue proteins. In this role its action appears to be linked with that of niacin."

    "Sarett, Klein, and Perlzweig (52) found that the urinary excretion of both riboflavin and niacin by dogs varied in an inverse relation to the protein intake, and concluded that they are associated together in protein metabolism. The site of the interaction is apparently the liver."

    "Sure, Theis, and Harrelson (57) found slight reductions in the ascorbic acid contents of most of the organs, not only in deficiency of thiamine, but also in deficiency of riboflavin and of vitamin A."

    "If the widest possible view is taken of the effect of vitamins we may conclude that all tissues are ultimately affected to some degree by all vitamins. Thus absence of any vitamin will eventually affect the rate of growth of the whole organism, and failure in growth will in turn influence the normal development of all parts of the body. It is clear, however, that certain tissues are more seriously affected by the absence of some vitamins than of others."

    "Concentration of attention on the important role of vitamin D in the calcification of bone may lead to neglect in the study of the scarcely less important parts played by other vitamins. The characteristic skeletal lesions in infantile scurvy have, of course, been recognized for centuries. In the young child, the growing ends of the bone are most affected. Thus radiographs of the limbs in human infantile scurvy (58) often show detachment of the epiphysis from shafts of bone, or fractures near the end of the shaft. Recently, Mellanby (59) has discovered that vitamin A is also concerned in bone formation. Deficiency of this vitamin in puppies resulted in a disorganization of the activities of the osteoblasts and osteoclasts, with the result that many bones became cancellous and overgrown, with loss of their fine molding and outline. Moore and Sykes (60) have made similar observations on the bones of calves deficient in vitamin A. We have clear proof, therefore, that vitamin A, ascorbic acid and vitamin D are all essential for bone formation. Possibly a minor role may be played by vitamin E, either directly or through its influence on vitamin A metabolism or on the pituitary gland. Thus Barrie (61) reported that deficiency of vitamin E in rats leads to imperfect calcification of the skull, which she associates with marked degranulation of the anterior pituitary. Recently, Weissberger and Harris (62) have found, by means of experiments with labeled radioactive phosphorus, that the phosphorus “turnover” of the bones is increased in rats which have been deprived of vitamin E, or have been given excessively large amounts."

    "It is evident that these same vitamins are concerned in the development of teeth." "An elegant demonstration of the well-known effect of ascorbic acid deficiencies on teeth in experimental scurvy was afforded by the experiments of Fish and Harris (63) who, by giving guinea pigs diets adequate or deficient in ascorbic acid for alternate periods, were able to produce corresponding bands of normal and degenerate structure in the incisor teeth. The effect of vitamin A deficiency on the teeth of the rat has been studied by Wolbach and Howe (G4) and others. The rich brown or orange color which distinguishes the outer fibrous layer of the anterior surfaces of the incisors is lost, and the teeth often become deformed and overgrown. T. Moore (65) has recently shown that similar depigmentation and deformation occur in rats which have adequate vitamin A reserves, but which are deficient in vitamin E. Since dental depigmentation also occurs in fluorosis (66) and in magnesium deficiency (67) it is obvious that a similar lesion may result from various dietary abnormalities, which may or may not be interrelated."

    "Nerve degeneration also occurs both in advanced deficiency of vitamin A and of vitamin E, although other lesions involved are very different in these two deficiencies. Thus in the absence of vitamin A, injury to the nerves is associated with overgrowth of bone (59), while in the absence of vitamin E the accompanying lesion is muscular dystrophy (71). Any distinction of vitamins according to whether or not their absence causes nervous degeneration must not, however, be too rigid. Much may depend upon whether the deficiency of the vitamin is acute or chronic."

    "Although hyperkeratosis is usually considered to be characteristic of deficiency of vitamin A (73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78), D. G. Moore (79) has reported that similar lesions are found in pellagra-like conditions, while Wiltshire (80) and Fox (81) have reported that hyperkeratosis is an early sign of scurvy. More direct evidence of the association of nutrients in preserving the normality of the skin has been advanced by Birch and Gyorgy (82) who have made the interesting observation that the skin lesions in deficiency of vitamin B6 closely resemble those seen in deficiency of essential fatty acids. They suggested that fats may have a sparing action on vitamin B6. As the result of further experiments, Birch (83) suggested that vitamin B6 is connected with the utilization of unsaturated fatty acids."

    "The quantity of fat present in the diet may affect considerably the requirement of vitamins. Moreover, since the need for one vitamin may he raised by increasing the intake of fat, while that for another is lowered, it seems probable that a balanced intake of vitamins which is appropriate when the diet is low in fat may become unbalanced when the diet is high in fat, or vice versa. Thus Evans and Lepkovsky (84) and others (85) found that a diet high in fat reduced the requirement for thiamine, and Booth, Henry, and Kon (86) found that certain fatty acids have a slight antirachitic value, thus reducing the requirement for vitamin D. Conversely, Gottlieb, Quackenbush, and Steenbock (87) have shown that a diet rich in fat increases thc requirement for vitamin E."

    "[..]we have no evidence of direct interaction between thiamine and vitamin E but if thiamine is “spared” by raising the proportion of fat in the diet the requirement of vitamin E will correspondingly be increased, since it is influenced in the opposite direction."

    "The above evidence indicates that the quantity of fat in the diet has an important influence in deciding the relative amounts of vitamins which will be required. The situation is further complicated by the influence of the quality of the fat concerned, which will vary in its action according to its nature, including the degree of unsaturation and other chemical properties, and the degree of freshness. The unsaturated acids of marine fats are often injurious when given in large amounts to rats (88) or in comparatively small amounts to herbivora (89). In rats, Yoshida (90) found that the deleterious action of marine fatty acids could be counteracted by an increased allowance of riboflavin. In rabbits, guinea pigs, and calves, however, vitamin E has been found most effective in counteracting the toxicity of marine oils."

    "Madsen (91) had found that cotton-seed oil, a rich source of vitamin E, was effective in preventing dystrophy in rabbits and guinea pigs, but that its beneficial action was lost if cod-liver oil was included in the diet."

    "If all the foregoing evidence can be accepted we must infer that the relative amounts of thiamine, vitantin D, vitaniin E, and riboflavin needed will depend not only on the quantity, but also on the quality of fat in the diet, and even on the procedure in feeding."

    "Moore, Martin, ant1 Rajogopal (94) first noticed that the vitamin A reserves of the livers of rats which had been kept on a diet deficient in vitamin E, but high in vitamin A (ca. 150 I.U. daily) were much lower than the reserves of similar animals which had received the same allowance of vitamin A together with supplements of wheat-germ oil concentrate. In some experiments the differences were as much as tenfold."

    "Young rats, having high reserves of vitamin A, were restricted to a basal diet deficient in both vitamins A and E and the rate of disappearance of vitamin A was studied with and without the addition of supplements of a-tocopherol. Although the vitamin A reserves of animals killed at intervals decreased in both groups, the decrease was much more rapid in the absence than in the presence of tocopherol. When after prolonged restriction to the basal diet vitamin A had disappeared from the livers of the rats without vitamin E, the animals given tocopherol still had substantial reserves. The deficiency of vitamin A in the rats without vitamin E could therefore under the circumstances of this experiment be considered as “secondary” to or “conditioned” by the vitamin E deficiency."

    "In extensive experiments with rat8, Hickman, et al. found that vitamin E, as mixed tocopherols, increased the groxth-promoting power of vitamin A alcohol, vitamin A acetate, or cod-liver oil. Thus in two groups of rats which were each given about 2 I.U. of vitamin A alcohol per animal daily the mean growth rate waa about twice as great when a daily supplement of 0.3 mg. of tocopherol was given than it was without this supplement. Tocopherol also increased the time taken to deplete young rats of vitamin A, and also their survival time at the end of the experiment after dosing with vitamin A had been stopped. High doses of more than 1.5 mg. of tocopherol were less effective than smaller doses in increasing growth."

    "Hickman and his colleagues also found that certain other antioxidants besides the tocopherols shared their ability to cause increased growth in conjunction with vitamin A or carotene. These included lauryl hydroquinone, ascorbic acid, and palmityl ascorbic acid, but hydroquinone and p-aminobenzoic acid were ineffective. Combinations of different "covitamins" were sometimes more effective than the single substances. Thus a mixture of tocopherol and palmityl ascorbic acid caused more rapid growth than either substance given singly."

    "[..]when a fixed amount of carotene was given as lettuce, which is rich in tocopherol, the amount of vitamin A stored was much greater than when the carotene was given as carrot, or some other vegetable less rich in tocopherol. With doses of pure carotene in oil, the addition of tocopherol not only greatly increased the storage of vitamin but also caused a marked increase in the percentage of the ingested carotene which was excreted in the feces."

    "The effects of massive dosing with one vitamin on the subject’s requirements for others may be conveniently reviewed under different subheadings, according to whether the massive dosing is in itself harmless or toxic. In the first case liberal but harmless dosing with one vitamin, when not “balanced” by the concurrent administration of other vitamins, may precipitate the appearance of symptoms of deficiency of another vitamin. This may be due to the promotion of rapid preliminary growth, which will increase the demands for other vitamins. In the second case we have to discuss the possibility that the ill effects of toxic overdosage with one vitamin may be alleviated by liberal dosing with another."

    "Scandinavian workers (102, 103, 104) have claimed that when human subjects suffering from multiple dietary deficiencies are dosed with thiamine alone the symptoms of niacin deficiency are developed. Similarly, Sydenstricker (105) has reported that when niacin alone is given to pellagrins certain signs of their disease, presumably due to deficiency in other factors, are intensified. An attempt by Klopp, Abels, and Rhoads (106) to produce riboflavin deficiency in man by giving large doses of thiamine was however unsuccessful, no more than a transitory rise in the urinary excretion of riboflavin being observed."

    "Collett and Eriksen (108) found that moderate superfluity of vitamins A and D had no antagonistic action towards ascorbic acid."

    "It has long been known that rich sources of vitamins A and D may be toxic when given in great excess, and that benefit may sometimes be derived by giving liberal allowances of water-soluble vitamins. More than 20 years ago, Hopkins (109) mentioned that excess of cod-liver oil was injurious to rats unless their allowance of yeast extract was raised. The problem is complicated since subsequent research has shown not only that vitamin A (110) and vitamin D (111) are each toxic in the pure form, but that they may be accompanied in their unsaponifiable concentrates by toxic impurities, and that even the fatty acids of marine oils may be injurious (88). In addition, early work suggested that isoamylamine and choline are responsible for the toxicity of some cod-liver oils, and that they produce symptoms similar to vitamin B deficiency, which may be prevented by an increased allowance of yeast (112). As antidotes for these various toxic substances a list of vitamins has been reported which is hardly less numerous. Not only the vitamin B complex, but ascorbic acid and the opposite member of the vitamin A-D partnership have been claimed to have beneficial effects."

    "Mouriquand and his colleagues (113, 114) made early claims that excess of cod-liver oil interferes with the cure of scurvy in guinea pigs, and this observation was confirmed fifteen years later by Collett and Eriksen (108). It is not clear, however, whether the interference was due to vitamin A."

    "Recently, Vedder and Rosenberg (115) examined the injuries produced by giving excessive amounts of jew-fish liver oil in rats. This oil is a rich source of vitamin A, which is believed by these authors to be associated with toxic impurities. The hemorrhages and skeletal fractures caused by this oil bore a remarkable resemblance to those seen in human or experimental scurvy. The urinary excretion of ascorbic acid was reduced, and it was found that the ill effects of jew-fish liver oil could be almost completely counteracted by giving large doses of ascorbic acid."

    "Moore (118) found that the reduction in growth rate caused by giving excess of a crude vitamin A concentrate could be restored by increasing the allowance of the vitamin B complex. It is uncertain, however, whether vitamin A was the only toxic constituent of the concentrate, while no information is available as to which member of the vitamin B comples was involved."
     
  6. Nighteyes

    Nighteyes Member

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    Thank you for adding these great quotes, Amazoniac. They are much appreciated and I enjoy reading them every time :) everything truly seems connected if you look close enough.
     
  7. Peatogenic

    Peatogenic Member

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    I only eat liver pate (pork and duck)....because it's more palatable. Hopefully that's adequate...

    Eating crab, shrimp, oysters, and chocolate also seem to be nutrient deficiency areas.

    I used to be against supplementation of any kind, because I know the body is designed to regulate and heal itself...that it's smarter than I am in how to balance everything.

    But I wonder about more pronounced damage, as in the hormone chaos of PTSD. Four years of nutrition work only mildly affected those things (nothing to dismiss, actually), but when I supplemented Pregnenolone, DHEA, Vit D, Vit A, I experienced a wild change in my entire being overnight. I do wonder, though, about the long term efficacy. Like, how do these systems even learn to heal? When I stop supplementing in six months, will my endocrine system be functional? And if so, by what means did the hormone supplementation effect that permanent (in essence) change?
     
  8. Makrosky

    Makrosky Member

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    Amazing, thanks a lot jungle guru!
     
  9. Makrosky

    Makrosky Member

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    PLEASE keep the highlights :):
     
  10. Makrosky

    Makrosky Member

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    Guru,

    Don't you think parasites could be a HUGE risk in juicing raw liver?

    Btw I think Chris isn't mentioning methylated forms of b12 because he is paid for. It is because they are more readily usable. Apparently lots of people are not able to utilize plain cyanocobalamin. Same for folic acid. Hence all this trend about methylcobalamin and methylfolate. There's a lot of info about it on the net.
     
  11. OP
    Amazoniac

    Amazoniac Member

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    I don't think it's worth the risk, but it must be minimized if you can source it from healthy animals. As I comment this, an image of animals losing their lives in savannas because they decided to take a sip of water comes to mind.
     
  12. Makrosky

    Makrosky Member

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    I have been thinking about all this. So in a depleted state isolated vitamins do more harm than good, that is for sure. And even complete multivitamins or bcomplex could do harm, although nowadays I think it is more difficult for this to happen since one can find very good complete and natural formulas.

    Anyway since liver can be problematic for copper and Vit A I am thinking that maybe in these cases using digestive enzymes would be really helpful. They will ensure proper nutrient extraction from food.

    And also traditional multivitamins like shilajit, bee pollen, and other restorative herbs.

    In those cases a lot of peat things will make problem worse : thyroid, methylene blue, gelatin, aspirin, niacinamide, etc...