Testosterone Users Out There?

[dookie]

So after not having much success with DHT gel (and pregnenolone, aspirin, etc), I've thought about trying a little testosterone gel for improving some symptoms (restlessness, emotionality, etc).

I feel really good on coffee, and have thought that it may be because of improved androgen levels.

I was encouraged by the studies @haidut talked about, where testosterone was used for prostate cancer and for demylenating diseases (eg multiple sclerosis) - I think he even mentioned the human equivalent of 2-3 mg of Testosterone being used with great success.

The question is: Is a few mg's of testosterone safe, or is there a risk of HPTA shut down, or aromatization, from even this amount? Can a little vitamin E (or A) be enough to prevent aromatization? If you have used testosterone, how did it feel like, and were there any issues that you noticed from low-dose T?

 

[haidut]

So after not having much success with DHT gel (and pregnenolone, aspirin, etc), I've thought about trying a little testosterone gel for improving some symptoms (restlessness, emotionality, etc).

I feel really good on coffee, and have thought that it may be because of improved androgen levels.

I was encouraged by the studies @haidut talked about, where testosterone was used for prostate cancer and for demylenating diseases (eg multiple sclerosis) - I think he even mentioned the human equivalent of 2-3 mg of Testosterone being used with great success.

The question is: Is a few mg's of testosterone safe, or is there a risk of HPTA shut down, or aromatization, from even this amount? Can a little vitamin E (or A) be enough to prevent aromatization? If you have used testosterone, how did it feel like, and were there any issues that you noticed from low-dose T?

Physiological doses of T do not raise E. T is a very poor substrate for the enzyme aromatase, while androstenedione is a very good one. So, DHEA is much better at raising estrogen than T is and in fact can do so when used in a single dose of even 15mg, while a dose of so much T will actually lower E as T is an aromatase inhibitor in lower concentrations. So, when used in physiological doses T is pretty safe and likely safer than DHEA.

 

[Constatine]

Out of curiosity does anyone know what doses of 2 - 3 mg will raise your testosterone levels to? Also can micro dosing testosterone create a positive feedback loop like dht?

 

[redlight]

Wouldn't that small of a dosage actually lower Testosterone levels?

 

[Constatine]

Wouldn't that small of a dosage actually lower Testosterone levels?

Why would this happen?

 

[haidut]

Out of curiosity does anyone know what doses of 2 - 3 mg will raise your testosterone levels to? Also can micro dosing testosterone create a positive feedback loop like dht?

I am pretty sure a small, physiological dose would create a positive feedback loop like anything else that improved metabolism. There was a study with hypogonadal males that I saw years ago showing that 2mg T applied to the scrotum increased blood T levels more than 4mg T applied to the arms. The small dose T made the testicles produce even more T while the higher dose simply got into the blood without stimulating (or suppressing) the gonads much. A dose of 8mg was suppressive when used for 3 months but I think it was due to conversion into estrogen. It is the conversion into estrogen that usually shuts down the HPGA. That is why even 1mg estrogen in males can cause shut down while if you use DHT you need 50mg+ for at least a week. The less aromatizable the steroid (or the higher up the steroidogenesis chain) the less suppression it would cause.

 

[aarfai]

I am pretty sure a small, physiological dose would create a positive feedback loop like anything else that improved metabolism. There was a study with hypogonadal males that I saw years ago showing that 2mg T applied to the scrotum increased blood T levels more than 4mg T applied to the arms. The small dose T made the testicles produce even more T while the higher dose simply got into the blood without stimulating (or suppressing) the gonads much. A dose of 8mg was suppressive when used for 3 months but I think it was due to conversion into estrogen. It is the conversion into estrogen that usually shuts down the HPGA. That is why even 1mg estrogen in males can cause shut down while if you use DHT you need 50mg+ for at least a week. The less aromatizable the steroid (or the higher up the steroidogenesis chain) the less suppression it would cause.

Interesting which ester of testosterone would you recommend experimenting with on our rats?

 

[Constatine]

I am pretty sure a small, physiological dose would create a positive feedback loop like anything else that improved metabolism. There was a study with hypogonadal males that I saw years ago showing that 2mg T applied to the scrotum increased blood T levels more than 4mg T applied to the arms. The small dose T made the testicles produce even more T while the higher dose simply got into the blood without stimulating (or suppressing) the gonads much. A dose of 8mg was suppressive when used for 3 months but I think it was due to conversion into estrogen. It is the conversion into estrogen that usually shuts down the HPGA. That is why even 1mg estrogen in males can cause shut down while if you use DHT you need 50mg+ for at least a week. The less aromatizable the steroid (or the higher up the steroidogenesis chain) the less suppression it would cause.

Assuming estrogen is the cause of suppression I wonder if dosing strong 5-ar derivatives such as dht will reduce the suppressive effects of tesosterone while providing even more androgenic action. I might experiment with my rat and report back. How does one aquire transdermal testosterone for a rat without a prescription for the little guy? Or is a prescription absolutely necessary for rats?

 

[haidut]

Interesting which ester of testosterone would you recommend experimenting with on our rats?

Ideally, no esters but the pure bioidentical form dissolved in DMSO or tocopherol. But other than chemical companies you cannot really get the free form anywhere affordably. Distant second best option would probably be propionate. I would not touch the benzoate esters.

 

[haidut]

Assuming estrogen is the cause of suppression I wonder if dosing strong 5-ar derivatives such as dht will reduce the suppressive effects of tesosterone while providing even more androgenic action. I might experiment with my rat and report back. How does one aquire transdermal testosterone for a rat without a prescription for the little guy? Or is a prescription absolutely necessary for rats?

Yes, I think a combination of say 2mg DHT and 2mg T daily would be a much more potent and less suppressing option than say just 8mg T daily, even though some of the 8mg T would convert into DHT as well.

 

[Evan]

Why do pharmaceutical companies prefer esters over free form? I wish I were able to find someone who provided it. I definitely don't trust all of these Chinese companies selling testosterone powder..Are there reputable chemical vendors who provide free form @haidut?

 

[haidut]

Why do pharmaceutical companies prefer esters over free form? I wish I were able to find someone who provided it. I definitely don't trust all of these Chinese companies selling testosterone powder..Are there reputable chemical vendors who provide free form @haidut?

Sure, Sigma, Specturm, Fisher, etc all sell free form but won't sell you without a DEA license.

 

[dookie]

@haidut

So 2 mg of Testosterone gel (from the pharmacy) should not raise estrogen, and should not suppress HPTA, am I getting this right?

Do you think testosterone would be helpful in serious degenerative diseases like cancer, MS, dementia, diabetes?

 

[haidut]

@haidut

So 2 mg of Testosterone gel (from the pharmacy) should not raise estrogen, and should not suppress HPTA, am I getting this right?

Do you think testosterone would be helpful in serious degenerative diseases like cancer, MS, dementia, diabetes?

Yes and yes. It is widely acknowledged among doctors that patients with cancer have high cortisol and low androgens. The same applies to conditions like MS and ALS and the link between diabetes and low T has been acknowledged at least since the 1950s. I don't think there is any disease out there that does not involve elevations of either estrogen or cortisol (except maybe Addison) and opposing these in any way can at the very least slow down the progression of the disease if it is chronic.

 

[Evan]

It seems just about impossible to get free form T, while dubious vendors from China supply all forms BUT. If you could, would you offer it from your European outlet or do you think the Pansterone is just as good if not better? @haidut

 

[dookie]

Yes and yes. It is widely acknowledged among doctors that patients with cancer have high cortisol and low androgens. The same applies to conditions like MS and ALS and the link between diabetes and low T has been acknowledged at least since the 1950s. I don't think there is any disease out there that does not involve elevations of either estrogen or cortisol (except maybe Addison) and opposing these in any way can at the very least slow down the progression of the disease if it is chronic.

"Slowing down the progression" reminds me of the mainstream medical talk. Aren't we looking for a reversal, a cure?

 

[haidut]

"Slowing down the progression" reminds me of the mainstream medical talk. Aren't we looking for a reversal, a cure?

The question was about T specifically, which I don't think would be a direct cure for all conditions except prostate cancer. But I think it will help so that's why I answered it like that. Thyroid and aspirin would probably be a cure for many cancers, DHT would be a cure for prostate cancer, MS, maybe even ALS. Progesterone can probably cure many of these as well, and so on.
Again, the question is about T specifically and this is my answer.

 

[skycop00]

I have been on TRT for nearly 10 years. Last year I used my Test Cypionate bottle and mixed it with dmso to make a transdermal application at 3mg per drop. I used 3mg per day and felt fine with no low feelings. This was just and experiment to see how I would feel wit low dose transdermal delivery vs injections 2x per week. I was injecting 80 mg of cypionate 2x per week previously.

 

[Texon]

I have been on TRT for nearly 10 years. Last year I used my Test Cypionate bottle and mixed it with dmso to make a transdermal application at 3mg per drop. I used 3mg per day and felt fine with no low feelings. This was just and experiment to see how I would feel wit low dose transdermal delivery vs injections 2x per week. I was injecting 80 mg of cypionate 2x per week previously.

Thought I would chime in on this thread. Here are sa link to some things that I think would be food for further discussion. Here is a very detailed look at treatment progression....
Dr. Eugene Shippen Visit (I wish this doc was in Dallas)

 

[japanesedude]

Physiological doses of T do not raise E. T is a very poor substrate for the enzyme aromatase, while androstenedione is a very good one. So, DHEA is much better at raising estrogen than T is and in fact can do so when used in a single dose of even 15mg, while a dose of so much T will actually lower E as T is an aromatase inhibitor in lower concentrations. So, when used in physiological doses T is pretty safe and likely safer than DHEA.

Yes, I think a combination of say 2mg DHT and 2mg T daily would be a much more potent and less suppressing option than say just 8mg T daily, even though some of the 8mg T would convert into DHT as well.

This is really interesting.
Im using 2-3mg T cream(Dissolved in　Hydrophilic vaseline/Ethanol)　on scrotum in the morning.
I won't get sore nipple from it and actually get dry joints.
libido went through the roof,feel like a champion an 1hour later after applied it on scrotum.
the problem is, blood concentration of testosterone is maximized in 2 hours, then it falls.
and Im not sure that It can stack with other idealab products like Androsterone,Kuinone and Pansterone(I want to applying together with T.)
because it has Vaseline which makes my balls too sticky.