Been Taking Exemestane To Raise Testosterone. Here's My Bloodwork. Any Thoughts?

[zane93]

Taking a look at nature. I take a Pine Pollen Tincture that is a source of Androstenedione, Testosterone, Androsteron, MSM, and Dehydroepiandrosterone as well as Raw Pine Pollen with a smoothie to help with support testosterone. I have no labs that say I am deficient I just do it for support on occasion.

"(NaturalNews) Raw pine pollen is the richest seedbed of testosterone derived from plants; since it is the male sperm of pine trees, it fosters plush growth in all living creatures, from trees and plants, to animals, to humans. Some experts claim that pine pollen is an ingredient in certain pharmaceuticals designed to treat low testosterone levels in both men and women."

Lots of easy to find research on Pine Pollen.

I also mix Shilajit Extract in my smoothly that I think does wonders for energy and vigour but it tastes like sh!t no joke. Shilajit is a black/brown substance that seeps out of the Himalayan mountains during the summer, and is jam packed with trace minerals and fulvic acid.

And another is Ant Extract this stuff is crazy nutritious check it out.

If any one wants to know where I get these me PM me.

 

[Agent207]

That's not really bad. Look at the reference ranges. For comparison sake, and if you think that's a bad total test to free test ratio, last November, I had a total test of 696ng/dL and my free test was at 11.3pg/mL. That's bad.... SHBG was in the 51 range and E2 was in the low 30's.

Maybe its better to use the Vermeulen to calculate free and bioavailable testosterone from total and SHBG. Free test are not very reliable when pulled by immunoassay labs.
http://www.issam.ch/freetesto.htm

 

[James_001]

I ordered some Proviron this afternoon and hope it doesn't take longer than 3 weeks to arrive because I'll be 2000 miles away by then lol. It should be legit Bayer Proviron but we will see if/when it arrives. You can pm me for the source but I'd recommend waiting until I get it before ordering anything.

Would you mind writing about your proviron experience?

thanks

 

[DaveFoster]

Mesterolone is probably the best androgen available. Far better than test or any derivatives.

 

[DaveFoster]

Does proviron shut you down??

Does proviron alone shut you down or not ??
Scroll to the bottom of and read the last post.

 

[dookie]

Tried some new experiments and got some new blood work. See my log for previous bloodwork.

For about 5 weeks now I've been taking 25mg of exemestane (Aromasin) every day. I have also taken tamoxifen (Nolvadex) sporadically — which I realize kind of complicates the variables here, but oh well.

2015-07-02

Testosterone 537      348-1197 ng/dL
Estradiol 25.4        7.6-42.6 pg/mL
LH 17.6               1.7–8.6 mIU/mL
FSH 8.3               1.5–12.4 mIU/mL
Prolactin 16.7        4-15.2 ng/mL     HIGH
ALT (SGPT) 52         0-44 IU/L        HIGH

The exemestane seems to be working. It has raised my testosterone — my previous level was 329 — and that's what I guessed going into the bloodwork because I could feel the physiological change. Increased confidence, increased general happiness, increased motivation, decreased social anxiety and worry. Little things made me happy for the first time in a long time. I don't want to jinx it or to oversell it — it's not like I'm super happy and everything is awesome — but I really do feel markedly better.

My prolactin is lower than before, but still higher than normal. I have not been taking any dopamine agonists to try lower it because I don't like the idea of dopamine agonists.

My slight gynecomastia is still present but at least does not seem to be getting worse. I was hoping the changes in my bodies hormonal cocktail would reverse it — but perhaps it has not been a dramatic enough change, or been a long enough time. But, it has become less important to me compared to the psychological improvements I have felt.

My LH was really high — which is interesting. I'm not exactly sure what to make of that. Perhaps it was all that estrogen that was previously signaling the negative feedback loop on my gonadotropins?

Also, the dosage of Aromasin I am taking is pretty high. Its higher than what seems to be the common dosage that AAS users take when they want to prevent high estrogen side effects. And they talk about the adverse effects of low estrogen — like dry joints — and I have not felt anything like that. I guess my body has just been making a lot of estrogen. Perhaps I should try an AI that's even stronger?

Also I've heard people talking about how prolactin is a better measure of tissue estrogen than plasma estrogen is, and that when plasma estrogen goes higher it may actually be because the body is eliminating it.

My test results seem to corroborate that. Because my plasma estrogen is actually higher than before, but so is my testosterone. And my prolactin is lower and the negative symptoms of low testosterone have diminished.

Considering the big picture:

Low testosterone sucks real bad. Raising my testosterone to this level has resulted in the biggest improvement in well-being and quality of life compared to anything I've experienced before.

But I'm not sure what is the most "healthy" and sustainable route to keeping my testosterone up. What's better/worse: continued AI use, or testosterone replacement therapy?

If I go on TRT though, I'd imagine it might make my estrogen problems worse — so I'd probably need to be on AI's anyway. I don't know.

Any thoughts or advice?

I thought that exemestane, at that dose you had been using, would make estradiol level undetectable.

A few years ago I was experimenting with an anti-histamine and some other things (pregnenolone, taurine), and my estradiol came back "Undetectable by lab method, <12, or something like that.

Since many of Peat's ideas are to lower estrogen levels, I have thought a long time about ,why not just use an aromatase inhibitor? It seems to be a more direct way of doing it than progesterone, aspirin, etc, which often don't lower estrogen as predictably.

 

[franko]

I thought that exemestane, at that dose you had been using, would make estradiol level undetectable.

Yeah, I guess it's just because I'm a heavy aromatizer.

 

[dookie]

Yeah, I guess it's just because I'm a heavy aromatizer.

When you take the pill, do you notice immediate changes, like a few hours later that the water retention decreases?

 

[Koveras]

Yeah, I guess it's just because I'm a heavy aromatizer.

Possibly but also exemestane is not that effective as an AI (which is not necessarily a bad thing depending on the application).

Pharmacokinetics and dose finding of a potent aromatase inhibitor, aromasin (exemestane), in young males. - PubMed - NCBI

"Suppression of estrogen, via estrogen receptor or aromatase blockade, is being investigated in the treatment of different conditions. Exemestane(Aromasin) is a potent and selective irreversible aromatase inhibitor. To characterize its suppression of estrogen and its pharmacokinetic (PK) properties in males, healthy eugonadal subjects (14-26 yr of age) were recruited. In a cross-over study, 12 were randomly assigned to 25 and 50 mgexemestane daily, orally, for 10 d with a 14-d washout period. Blood was withdrawn before and 24 h after the last dose of each treatment period. A PK study was performed (n = 10) using a 25-mg dose. Exemestane suppressed plasma estradiol comparably with either dose [25 mg, 38% (P <or= 0.002); 50 mg, 32% (P <or= 0.008)], with a reciprocal increase in testosterone concentrations (60% and 56%; P <or= 0.003 for both). Plasma lipids and IGF-I concentrations were unaffected by treatment. The PK properties of the 25-mg dose showed the highest exemestane concentrations 1 h after administration, indicating rapid absorption. The terminal half-life was 8.9 h. Maximal estradiol suppression of 62 +/- 14% was observed at 12 h. The drug was well tolerated. In conclusion, exemestane is a potent aromatase inhibitor in men and an alternative to the choice of available inhibitors. Long-term efficacy and safety will need further study."

Compared that with letrozole which at the standard dose of 2.5mg/day is almost guaranteed to render estrogen undetectable. I pointed out in another thread it had been used at a dose of 2.5mg/ once weekly in hypogonadal men in several studies successfully.

Letrozole in Men Weekly

Somatic and psychological effects of low-dose aromatase inhibition in men with obesity-related hypogonadotropic hypotestosteronemia. - PubMed - NCBI
Letrozole normalizes serum testosterone in severely obese men with hypogonadotropic hypogonadism. - PubMed - NCBI
Letrozole once a week normalizes serum testosterone in obesity-related male hypogonadism. - PubMed - NCBI

Letrozole in Men Daily

The effect of aromatase inhibitor letrozole on body mass index, serum hormones, and sperm parameters in infertile men. - PubMed - NCBI
Preliminary study of letrozole use for improving spermatogenesis in non-obstructive azoospermia patients with normal serum FSH. - PubMed - NCBI
Changes in hormonal profile and seminal parameters with use of aromatase inhibitors in management of infertile men with low testosterone to estradi... - PubMed - NCBI

Note that low libido is a common side effect of excessive aromatase inhibition.

 

[franko]

When you take the pill, do you notice immediate changes, like a few hours later that the water retention decreases?

No, I haven't noticed any immediate effects. Mostly I just notice that low T feeling when I go off it for a few days.

 

[DaveFoster]

Possibly but also exemestane is not that effective as an AI (which is not necessarily a bad thing depending on the application).

Pharmacokinetics and dose finding of a potent aromatase inhibitor, aromasin (exemestane), in young males. - PubMed - NCBI

"Suppression of estrogen, via estrogen receptor or aromatase blockade, is being investigated in the treatment of different conditions. Exemestane(Aromasin) is a potent and selective irreversible aromatase inhibitor. To characterize its suppression of estrogen and its pharmacokinetic (PK) properties in males, healthy eugonadal subjects (14-26 yr of age) were recruited. In a cross-over study, 12 were randomly assigned to 25 and 50 mgexemestane daily, orally, for 10 d with a 14-d washout period. Blood was withdrawn before and 24 h after the last dose of each treatment period. A PK study was performed (n = 10) using a 25-mg dose. Exemestane suppressed plasma estradiol comparably with either dose [25 mg, 38% (P <or= 0.002); 50 mg, 32% (P <or= 0.008)], with a reciprocal increase in testosterone concentrations (60% and 56%; P <or= 0.003 for both). Plasma lipids and IGF-I concentrations were unaffected by treatment. The PK properties of the 25-mg dose showed the highest exemestane concentrations 1 h after administration, indicating rapid absorption. The terminal half-life was 8.9 h. Maximal estradiol suppression of 62 +/- 14% was observed at 12 h. The drug was well tolerated. In conclusion, exemestane is a potent aromatase inhibitor in men and an alternative to the choice of available inhibitors. Long-term efficacy and safety will need further study."

Compared that with letrozole which at the standard dose of 2.5mg/day is almost guaranteed to render estrogen undetectable. I pointed out in another thread it had been used at a dose of 2.5mg/ once weekly in hypogonadal men in several studies successfully.

Letrozole in Men Weekly

Somatic and psychological effects of low-dose aromatase inhibition in men with obesity-related hypogonadotropic hypotestosteronemia. - PubMed - NCBI
Letrozole normalizes serum testosterone in severely obese men with hypogonadotropic hypogonadism. - PubMed - NCBI
Letrozole once a week normalizes serum testosterone in obesity-related male hypogonadism. - PubMed - NCBI

Letrozole in Men Daily

The effect of aromatase inhibitor letrozole on body mass index, serum hormones, and sperm parameters in infertile men. - PubMed - NCBI
Preliminary study of letrozole use for improving spermatogenesis in non-obstructive azoospermia patients with normal serum FSH. - PubMed - NCBI
Changes in hormonal profile and seminal parameters with use of aromatase inhibitors in management of infertile men with low testosterone to estradi... - PubMed - NCBI

Note that low libido is a common side effect of excessive aromatase inhibition.

Letrozole.

Not even once. Actually once; I almost died.

Exemestane (aromasin) does not harm lipids in the same way as arimidex or letrozole.

 

[Koveras]

Letrozole.

Not even once. Actually once; I almost died.

Exemestane (aromasin) does not harm lipids in the same way as arimidex or letrozole.

Hey Dave,

Could you describe further exactly what doses you took and how many, the source of the product (legitimate pharmaceutical or "research chemical"), your symptoms, and the diagnosis of the medical staff?

Appreciated

 

[DaveFoster]

Could you describe further exactly what doses you took and how many, the source of the product (legitimate pharmaceutical or "research chemical"), your symptoms, and the diagnosis of the medical staff?

SOURCE: Buy Peptides | Research Chemicals | Research Liquids | Superior Peptide

DOSE: (Recommend maximal dose is 2.5 mg [27 drops])
Day 1: 90 mcg (1 drop)
Day 2: 90 mcg (1 drop)
Day 3: 90 mcg (1 drop)
Day 4: 360 mcg (4 drops)

Day 5: I almost pass out in class. Blood pressure drops dramatically, (aldosterone likely jumped to preserve fluids,) feeling anxious, tried to eat, almost threw up.

Took a cab to another clinic, they sent me to hospital, got an IV and EKG.

Diagnosed with tachycardia (heart palpitations). It was absolutely caused by dehydration:

1) As soon as a drank pickle juice and water, I felt better.
2) I felt completely fine when they had the IV in me.
3) After taking out the IV, I felt lightheaded.
4) Only after drinking about 32 oz of liquids every hour did I feel functional.

In retrospect, this could have been prevented by taking higher doses of DHEA to supplement estrogen back into my system.

When I did hydrate properly, I felt very aggressive in a good sort of way. This is known as "DHT rage," and I think this state is attainable, but not so far down on E2 where I was at.

 

[BibleBeliever]

Taking a look at nature. I take a Pine Pollen Tincture that is a source of Androstenedione, Testosterone, Androsteron, MSM, and Dehydroepiandrosterone as well as Raw Pine Pollen with a smoothie to help with support testosterone. I have no labs that say I am deficient I just do it for support on occasion.

"(NaturalNews) Raw pine pollen is the richest seedbed of testosterone derived from plants; since it is the male sperm of pine trees, it fosters plush growth in all living creatures, from trees and plants, to animals, to humans. Some experts claim that pine pollen is an ingredient in certain pharmaceuticals designed to treat low testosterone levels in both men and women."

Lots of easy to find research on Pine Pollen.

I also mix Shilajit Extract in my smoothly that I think does wonders for energy and vigour but it tastes like sh!t no joke. Shilajit is a black/brown substance that seeps out of the Himalayan mountains during the summer, and is jam packed with trace minerals and fulvic acid.

And another is Ant Extract this stuff is crazy nutritious check it out.

If any one wants to know where I get these me PM me.

Note: Blackstrap Molasses is the poor man's Shilajit. The only other food I could find high in fulvic acid, which is touted to greatly increase absorption of nutrients. Blackstrap mollasses also being rich in nutrients.

Bee pollen is touted to have the natural hormones as well, but I doubt nowhere near pine pollen. I looked into buying pine pollen powder, but could only find it on ebay at about 75.00 a lb roughly.

I've heard ant extract is the highest source of zinc on earth, but it is strange to eat the powder of ants, especially at the price.

 

[ddjd]

What does peat say about Arimidex

 

[ddjd]

No, I haven't noticed any immediate effects. Mostly I just notice that low T feeling when I go off it for a few days.

OP, 2 years on from this post are you still taking aromasin? Can I ask which brand you used.
Did you see haiduts comments in another thread based on a study about Exemestane saying that only 2.5mg is needed as an optimal dose of Exemestane

 

[ddjd]

For the prolaction you could try wellbutrin maybe, not sure how effective it would be compared to a dopamine agonist, but theoretically should help.


"Perhaps I should try an AI that's even stronger?"

Why not just up the arimidex dose slightly? Get bloods done again after a few weeks. Estradiol can get to around 20 and then you've maybe reached the limit for where AI will take you, but like the other guy said it depends on your libido/erections


Age?
Did you get free T levels checked ?
What is your BF% estimate? If you were able to lose some of the weight you might not need the AI with TRT.
I'm not sure what the long term effects/risks are of taking an AI but if they were minimal, isn't your test around what you would get on a normal TRT dose?

Glad to see things have turned around for you.

BY THE WAY, I recommend you look into Proviron

How long before you quit proviron?

 

[Antonello]

Try B6 P5P for the prolactin. Works great for me.

How much are you taking bro?

 

[benaoao]

I’m surprised nobody noticed the LH going way high with the T staying barely around the lower quarter of the range. That isn’t exactly screaming success... Another case of using a drug without understanding the context in which it’s being used.

 

[vulture]

I tried proviron and for some reason my testicles were always tight on them, maybe a sign of lowered E?

didn't they get smaller? as far as I understand if they get smaller, you got supressed, but I'm not sure of how reliable is it