Supplementing Refined Starch w/ Potassium To Help Blood Sugar Regulation; Thoughts?

[Sphagnum]

Spoiler: Here is my dilemma that brings me to use supplemental K with refined carbs

I have apparent blood sugar regulation issues with refined starches, specifically white rice (sticky/glutinious variety,) in that if I eat a satiable amount (300-400g dry weight) I am hit with serious post-meal fatigue. Even with protein mixed in, I get terribly drained of energy. Fruits/juices, whole grains, and potatoes this doesn't happen with. However, I find it difficult to rely on those as my carb staples. Fruits/juices don't keep me satiated no matter how much I take in, whole grains in that amount require too much calcium to balance the phosphorus (egg shell and other calcium supps upset my digestion and milk's Ca:P ratio isn't strong enough to help,) and potatoes are too filling to eat in amounts that I need to meet caloric needs. Most starches also give me bad dandruff issues due to the amylose content, which is why the white sticky rice is my go to. It digests clean, I feel satiated, no dandruff, but the post-meal drop kills me. Sticky rice is all amylopectin starch, which doesn't need to be broken down like amylose starch does, so it can be like taking straight glucose.

So, I've read/heard where Ray mentions potassium being even more important than insulin in shuttling glucose into cells. This gave me the idea to supplement potassium when eating refined carbs to avoid the apparent blood sugar crashes I'd experience. I looked up the ratio of potassium to carbohydrate in foods like bananas and potatoes, and experimented with supplementing it in the meal. A few days this past week I have mixed 350g of white sticky rice (276g total carbs all from amylopectin) with 13g Potassium Chloride (6.77g potassium) and I had no noticeable post-meal fatigue. The amounts used reflect the carb to potassium ratio of bananas. This leads me to believe that it was blood sugar crashes from the amount of insulin triggered by the glucose hitting my system from all amylopectin white rice I was taking in at once.

Now the drawback is the amount of chloride that comes with this approach. The potassium of course has to be balanced with sodium, and that is easy to do with salt, but then that's even more chloride! From what I've found on here, its way too much chloride so I'm not repeating the mix at this time.
I'm wondering if there is a safer potassium compound I could try out. Keep in mind, I need about a total of 7g of potassium, so what the K is bound to is of importance.

In the mean time, I am experimenting with mixing refined and unrefined grains together with more protein to alleviate crashes, but the added K has done so much more than anything else. I'd like to keep using it until I figure out how to fix the crashes in general (right now trying to lower my fat intake, not that I feel it was that high when in ratio to my carb and protein.)

*Note- I know most gov dietary recommendations are for 3.5-4.7g potassium a day, with those figures based on 2,000-2,500 calorie day. I came across Ray's work after finding myself hypothyroid due to chronic undereating, and I find my caloric needs to be much higher than the set RV's

 

[PeskyPeater]

As i understand it. An abnormally high peak in blood glucose shall result in a reactive crash when there is an inability to put glucose in the cells.
niacinamide aspirin and vitamin E keep the PUFA free fatty acid release to a minimum when the blood glucose levels have dropped.
this helps to reduce the effect of FFA from activating the Randle effect, making sugar available to the cells for fuel, while a steady and frequency intake of sugars makes the insulin also lower free fatty acids in turn.
Dr peat mentioned a window of 90 minutes of availability of blood glucose, Does not matter what sources of glucose you use, but fructose with it will improve the liver storage of glycogen and reduce insulin values and helps to increase insulin sensitivity, which seem to keeps potassium from depleting when there is a too high load of insulin in the blood that tends to force the potassium out from the cell into the blood.

 

[youngsinatra]

"Insulin is important in the regulation of blood sugar, but its importance has been exaggerated because of the diabetes/insulin industry. Insulin itself has been found to account for only about 8% of the "insulin-like activity" of the blood, with potassium being probably the largest factor. There probably isn't any process in the body that doesn't potentially affect blood sugar." (Link Glycemia, starch, and sugar in context )

Well-cooked potatoes have a very high amount of K but like you said, a large amount cannot be eaten by most individuals.

Interesting experiment!
Does the KCL disturb the taste?

 

[PeskyPeater]

Using high amylopectin starch may reduce the burden of the pancreas having to excrete enzymes, while the brush-border intestinal cells in hypothyroidism can still process amylose pretty well, it seems to me when using this technique could indicate a bad pancreas function. especially when using starches you stimulate pancreas more than fructose sources of sugar. I suspect it's more of an estrogenic cause of this pancreas issue, that may be resolved by reducing the re-uptake of oestrogen by using functional fibers like oat- and wheatbran and carrots, while staying away from starch in general

 

[youngsinatra]

Potassium chloride can also be used in a foot bath (just like magnesium chloride) and I know some who had great success with it.
But be careful with initial dosing. I think my colleagues only used 1 or 2 tbsp in a foot bath. I haven't done one myself, but this might be helpful. (or not )

 

[PeskyPeater]

"Insulin is important in the regulation of blood sugar, but its importance has been exaggerated because of the diabetes/insulin industry. Insulin itself has been found to account for only about 8% of the "insulin-like activity" of the blood, with potassium being probably the largest factor. There probably isn't any process in the body that doesn't potentially affect blood sugar." (Link Glycemia, starch, and sugar in context )

Well-cooked potatoes have a very high amount of K but like you said, a large amount cannot be eaten by most individuals.

Interesting experiment!
Does the KCL disturb the taste?

yes, indeed. I feel potatoes (mashed) are a very good choice as a filling meal, breaking down the starch with cooking it of course. 421mg of potassium / 100gr potato. That is more than a lot of fruits.

Fruit can to be eaten up to 30m before a meal of potatoes to have that insulin lowering effect even with starches for diabetics.

 

[Sphagnum]

"Insulin is important in the regulation of blood sugar, but its importance has been exaggerated because of the diabetes/insulin industry. Insulin itself has been found to account for only about 8% of the "insulin-like activity" of the blood, with potassium being probably the largest factor. There probably isn't any process in the body that doesn't potentially affect blood sugar." (Link Glycemia, starch, and sugar in context )

Well-cooked potatoes have a very high amount of K but like you said, a large amount cannot be eaten by most individuals.

Interesting experiment!
Does the KCL disturb the taste?

Yeah, I would need about 4 times the weight in potatoes compared to rice, which is too filling for the rest of the day.

The KCl added does have a prominent taste, but it wasn't nearly as bad as I expected either. I don't eat white rice unseasoned anyway, so when I added other flavors in the KCl was there but not so overwhelming. However, if NaCl is in the seasonings, the chloride stimulation on the tongue doesn't get muted any and can be odd.

 

[Sphagnum]

Using high amylopectin starch may reduce the burden of the pancreas having to excrete enzymes, while the brush-border intestinal cells in hypothyroidism can still process amylose pretty well, it seems to me when using this technique could indicate a bad pancreas function. especially when using starches you stimulate pancreas more than fructose sources of sugar. I suspect it's more of an estrogenic cause of this pancreas issue, that may be resolved by reducing the re-uptake of oestrogen by using functional fibers like oat- and wheatbran and carrots, while staying away from starch in general

Yes, fresh oats (from a farm that doesn't steam them first) and carrots I seem to do well with. I wish the oats weren't so high in P though so that I could use them more.
The estrogen aspect is interesting. I have definitely felt the least 'androgenic' of my life recently, which I feel is in large part due to going from being very active to very sedentary the past 3 years. Planning on starting back at the gym next week after a long break in order to fix some of that.

yes, indeed. I feel potatoes (mashed) are a very good choice as a filling meal, breaking down the starch with cooking it of course. 421mg of potassium / 100gr potato. That is more than a lot of fruits.

Fruit can to be eaten up to 30m before a meal of potatoes to have that insulin lowering effect even with starches for diabetics.

I've tried this a few times, and while it delayed the issues I had, it couldn't alleviate them.

 

[PeskyPeater]

Yeah, I would need about 4 times the weight in potatoes compared to rice, which is too filling for the rest of the day.

The KCl added does have a prominent taste, but it wasn't nearly as bad as I expected either. I don't eat white rice unseasoned anyway, so when I added other flavors in the KCl was there but not so overwhelming. However, if NaCl is in the seasonings, the chloride stimulation on the tongue doesn't get muted any and can be odd.

whats wrong with eating fruit instead of rice?

You are trying to combine starches and patching up the side effects with Kalium, but I feel that is like a prayer without an end. Cutting out the starch but only using their outer layer , the bran, and combining fruits cellulose and soluble fiber with sweetened milk and greek yogurt with the bran fiber, is more optimal for fructose has a hihger potential energy storage than glucose...

 

[PeskyPeater]

.. this means that in the case of using mainly fructose, your muscle and liver will have higher capacity of ATP per stored glycogen, giving you more energy. But of course, you have to be able to utilize this. Shifting to Fruits, It's not going automagically dissolve sugar crashes. This is were the B3, aspirin and vitamin E come in. These keep the randle cycle away from fat burning and towards sugar burning improving utilization of sugars, increasing insulin sensitivity and spares kalium / P and improve your energy.

 

[PeskyPeater]

The estrogen aspect is interesting. I have definitely felt the least 'androgenic' of my life recently, which I feel is in large part due to going from being very active to very sedentary the past 3 years. Planning on starting back at the gym next week after a long break in order to fix some of that.

yup very interesting connection, estrogen-pancreas.. check this out:

Estrogen-induced acute pancreatitis: A case report and literature review​

Discussion​

...
Although the exact mechanism of estrogen-induced acute pancreatitis is still unclear, estrogen-induced acute pancreatitis is thought to be caused by hypertriglyceridemia. Most of the reported cases show elevated serum triglyceride level of up to 1,000 mg (Table 1). Hypertriglyceridemic pancreatitis is reported to be responsible for 1.3–3.8% of patients with acute pancreatitis [5]. Hyperlipidemia is divided into primary hyperlipidemia and secondary hyperlipidemia. Estrogen-induced hyperlipidemia is secondary hyperlipidemia. Other causes of secondary hyperlipidemia include diabetes, alcohol, and pregnancy. The triglycerides transported by chylomicron and very low density lipoprotein are hydrolyzed by the high concentration of lipase in the capillaries of the pancreas and form a large amount of toxic free fatty acids, which causes lipotoxicity during acute pancreatitis. [6,7] The risk factors for estrogen-induced acute pancreatitis include genetic abnormality of lipid metabolism, insulin resistance, obesity, alcohol use, and pregnancy. Infants, elderly, and women patients with advanced acquired immune deficiency syndrome, and patients with inflammatory bowel disease are also considered as high risk groups that are susceptible to drug-induced pancreatitis [7,8]. Although the patient did not have a history of hypercholesterolemia, she was 40 years old which can be identified as a risk factor for the drug-induced acute pancreatitis.

In this case, the patient was taking estrogen for ET, and the blood test confirmed a high concentration of triglyceride as in other previously reported estrogen-induced acute pancreatitis cases. Although the patient had diabetes which could be the cause of secondary hyperlipidemia, her diabetes was under control with insulin. Gallstone or structural abnormality which are major causes of pancreatitis were not visualized in CT scan and no history of alcohol abuse was found. In addition, her symptom improved after stopping taking estrogens. All the evidence above supports the diagnosis of estrogen-induced acute pancreatitis.

 

[Ben.]

Why not use potassium bicarbonate in OJ for example? Should give you some potassium citrate that way which the PRAL people are very fond off with interesting results.
Or scrap that step and buy potassium citrate?

Like with magnesium i woudn't be surprised if there where potassium supplements that contain potassium with different forms.

 

[Peachy]

whats wrong with eating fruit instead of rice?

You are trying to combine starches and patching up the side effects with Kalium, but I feel that is like a prayer without an end. Cutting out the starch but only using their outer layer , the bran, and combining fruits cellulose and soluble fiber with sweetened milk and greek yogurt with the bran fiber, is more optimal for fructose has a hihger potential energy storage than glucose...

This is an interesting thought. I’m wondering if this might be a good way to consume carbs for someone working on SIBO/Candida issues. Enough to keep the energy/satiety up compared to fruit alone. But perhaps reduce Candida compared to a higher starch. Any thoughts?

 

[PeskyPeater]

This is an interesting thought. I’m wondering if this might be a good way to consume carbs for someone working on SIBO/Candida issues. Enough to keep the energy/satiety up compared to fruit alone. But perhaps reduce Candida compared to a higher starch. Any thoughts?

Starch or starch plus fructose combi do not really affect the biofilm of candida so negatively as to being able to destroy it better. You would need to focus on the breaking down the biofilm with other means, but this is just as important with the germs in SIBO.

 

[Peachy]

Starch or starch plus fructose combi do not really affect the biofilm of candida so negatively as to being able to destroy it better. You would need to focus on the breaking down the biofilm with other means, but this is just as important with the germs in SIBO.

Yeah, I was just starting to wrap my mind about a treatment protocol. But with diet I’ve been trying to think of a way to keep carbs in, in the safest way.

 

[PeskyPeater]

Yeah, I was just starting to wrap my mind about a treatment protocol. But with diet I’ve been trying to think of a way to keep carbs in, in the safest way.

I think the safest way of eating carbs is with the juice of fruits, but not the soluble fiber. And sweetened greek yoghurt with wheat bran and bamboo shoots, and mashed potatoes cooked with skimmed milk (powder).

 

[Sphagnum]

whats wrong with eating fruit instead of rice?

You are trying to combine starches and patching up the side effects with Kalium, but I feel that is like a prayer without an end. Cutting out the starch but only using their outer layer , the bran, and combining fruits cellulose and soluble fiber with sweetened milk and greek yogurt with the bran fiber, is more optimal for fructose has a hihger potential energy storage than glucose...

.. this means that in the case of using mainly fructose, your muscle and liver will have higher capacity of ATP per stored glycogen, giving you more energy. But of course, you have to be able to utilize this. Shifting to Fruits, It's not going automagically dissolve sugar crashes. This is were the B3, aspirin and vitamin E come in. These keep the randle cycle away from fat burning and towards sugar burning improving utilization of sugars, increasing insulin sensitivity and spares kalium / P and improve your energy.

I love to eat fruit and milk/yogurt and do as much as I can, but no matter how much I take in, I still have starch cravings. I went a long time cutting out all starches, and eating only fruit, but ignoring the cravings for starch leads to hypothyroid symptoms for me. I do agree that the adding Kalium is a patch, but I am hoping that if I can get my blood sugar regulated correctly by changing my fat habits, then I won't need the K anymore.

I have some follow up questions as I am not familiar with everything you've mentioned:
-Which vitamin E is best for this, as there are eight different types?
-Will using E, aspirin, and B3 completely keep the fat burning aspect of the Randle cycle turned off? I have a small amount of extra body fat from my downturn that I would like to get rid of when I restart exercise, and I also still have dairy fat, egg yolk, and cocoa butter in my diet as I always try to use real foods to acquire vitamins.
-How much bran is needed to be consumed, because like the whole grain starches, I find it difficult to balance all the P with enough Ca since milk's ratio isn't very strong and egg shell disrupts my digestion?

 

[Sphagnum]

Why not use potassium bicarbonate in OJ for example? Should give you some potassium citrate that way which the PRAL people are very fond off with interesting results.
Or scrap that step and buy potassium citrate?

Like with magnesium i woudn't be surprised if there where potassium supplements that contain potassium with different forms.

I saw potassium bicarbonate mentioned elsewhere on here, but I think it would have to be hitting my system the same time as the starch for it to work its magic. I guess I could get a small amount and try to cook it with the rice.
I do try to be mindful of my PRAL, and try to make sure I'm getting enough calcium and magnesium while keeping my phosphorus and protein moderate.
I am worrisome of citrates, as I know Ray discourages their use, in part because they are commercially derived from mold, and I also don't want to overdo anything acidic anyway. I switched from mag citrate to mag malate & mag biglyc and feel it was a good choice despite mag citrate being flavorless and the other two tasting terrible haha. (I know that the malate is also acidic, but it is less total acid per weight and also more absorbable. I use it because I have seen it said it increases ATP)

Yeah, there are def a few different types of potassium forms out there, but I am not well versed in what the other parts of the molecule might do when hitting my system.

 

[PeskyPeater]

I love to eat fruit and milk/yogurt and do as much as I can, but no matter how much I take in, I still have starch cravings. I went a long time cutting out all starches, and eating only fruit, but ignoring the cravings for starch leads to hypothyroid symptoms for me. I do agree that the adding Kalium is a patch, but I am hoping that if I can get my blood sugar regulated correctly by changing my fat habits, then I won't need the K anymore.

I have some follow up questions as I am not familiar with everything you've mentioned:
-Which vitamin E is best for this, as there are eight different types?
-Will using E, aspirin, and B3 completely keep the fat burning aspect of the Randle cycle turned off? I have a small amount of extra body fat from my downturn that I would like to get rid of when I restart exercise, and I also still have dairy fat, egg yolk, and cocoa butter in my diet as I always try to use real foods to acquire vitamins.
-How much bran is needed to be consumed, because like the whole grain starches, I find it difficult to balance all the P with enough Ca since milk's ratio isn't very strong and egg shell disrupts my digestion?

Dr Peat said craving starches is a typical sign of hypothyroidism

vitamin E mixed tocopherols without tocotrienals in olive oil as a carrier is recommended by RP

Aspirin prevents excessive release of FFA, but fat burning always occurs in principle, the biggest muscles burn fats also at rest. It is a myth that exercise makes you loose weight faster in comparison with a very restricted calorie intake. Exercise helps a little but is overrated and is a form of stress and could lead to excessive release of toxic PUFA and damage mitochondria, shifting away from sugar burning and experiencing the jo-jo effect, regaining the weight. What's important is improving your basal metabolic rate and optimize thyroid function by improving sugar burning by preventing the Randle effect as much as you can with the combination of B3 aspirin vitamin E. The stored fat can be removed via the liver and excreted in the urine next to breathing out converted fats out as CO2.

A couple of tablespoons of bran is oke.

When enough dairy is in your diet, it is likely you are staying under 3:1 ratio of the Ph/Ca ratio, is still oke. When getting up to 5:1 you should be really worried.
View: https://youtu.be/h4zU-zmvWnA?t=2255

 

[Sphagnum]

Dr Peat said craving starches is a typical sign of hypothyroidism

That is my main worry, that when I don't have starches and have the cravings, I am slipping back into a hypothyroid state due to lack of adequate carbohydrates in the diet. The only fruit that seems to curb the cravings in any way are dates, but as much as I love them I can only stomach so much of them before getting nauseous. I am assuming the nausea is from all the fructose, as I would always feel the nausea when drinking beverages sweetened with HFCS.

vitamin E mixed tocopherols without tocotrienals in olive oil as a carrier is recommended by RP

Thank you, I will see what I can find in a food source first, and if I can't then I suppose I will look into supplements. I have a lot of food grade pure cocoa butter on hand, perhaps I can see if that has the right profile.

Aspirin prevents excessive release of FFA, but fat burning always occurs in principle, the biggest muscles burn fats also at rest. It is a myth that exercise makes you loose weight faster in comparison with a very restricted calorie intake. Exercise helps a little but is overrated and is a form of stress and could lead to excessive release of toxic PUFA and damage mitochondria, shifting away from sugar burning and experiencing the jo-jo effect, regaining the weight. What's important is improving your basal metabolic rate and optimize thyroid function by improving sugar burning by preventing the Randle effect as much as you can with the combination of B3 aspirin vitamin E. The stored fat can be removed via the liver and excreted in the urine next to breathing out converted fats out as CO2.

I am mostly looking to exercise in an attempt to regain some of the androgenic effects I always felt from it. I never had issues with low androgenic feelings until the last couple of years when the combination of undereating and lack of weight training caught up with me. Now that I have been eating heavier, the small fat I have put on is not a big deal as I am still fairly lean, but where it has deposited seems to be in my "love handles" and chest, which both seem estrogenic to me. Even if I regain my lost muscle mass and keep the fat, I would be fine with that as I am more worried that any caloric restriction to lose the fat would send me back to a hypothyroid state.

A couple of tablespoons of bran is oke.

When enough dairy is in your diet, it is likely you are staying under 3:1 ratio of the Ph/Ca ratio, is still oke. When getting up to 5:1 you should be really worried.
View: https://youtu.be/h4zU-zmvWnA?t=2255

I recall reading on this board numerous times before that Ray had recommended a 1:1 ratio, and preferred it to even be Ca leaning. I had never heard him mention until now that a 3:1 P/Ca is still considered safe.
Would a 3:1 P/Ca ratio safely keep parathyroid hormone suppressed, though? That is a particular concern of mine.