Suggestions for a mental health crisis

[curious_anthro]

I have a friend who is really struggling with her mental health, on the brink of being admitted, and has been on SSRIs for several years (but recently quit). I really want to help her implement some better lifestyle habits, maybe some supplements, but I wondered if anyone has any tips when just starting out on that journey who has been through something similar? I haven’t struggled too much with this side of things myself. I know there is a plethora of info on the forum about this but I want to suggest some simple, effective things she could try straight away as someone new to Ray Peat. I have already given her dietary recommendations.

I was thinking of suggesting progesterone and maybe vitamin E to get a handle on estrogen. Maybe Cypro too? But worried about the grogginess she may experience. Any advice is so appreciated!!

 

[Peater]

Start with the basics like magnesium, calcium, salt, B vits (preferably from food) and personally I would cut out grains and gluten too .

 

[curious_anthro]

Start with the basics like magnesium, calcium, salt, B vits (preferably from food) and personally I would cut out grains and gluten too .

Thank you that’s great! I was also thinking about the no grains suggestion. I don’t think her diet is too bad, she avoids PUFAs, but probably does eat a lot of grains

 

[Peater]

Thank you that’s great! I was also thinking about the no grains suggestion. I don’t think her diet is too bad, she avoids PUFAs, but probably does eat a lot of grains

Yeah grains can irritate the digestive system causing excess serotonin to be produced.

Have you got any Progest-E? That might be worth trying as she is female. (I am male and have tried it, some benefits but it can be anti androgenic for men)

 

[slimdaddydogjim]

I agree with Peater, excess serotonin may be an issue. She should try having a daily carrot salad with olive oil to help combat any gut/serotonin issues. She can also try cooked mushrooms, as these will similarly clean out the gut as well as offer anti-aromatase benefits which in turn should help lower estrogen.

Eliminating straches in the diet should also help (grains and legumes) as these can contribute to higher endotoxin and serotinin issues. I would also recommend that she avoid green leafy vegetables, cruciferous vegetables, as well as nightshade vegetables, since these may hinder mineral absorbtion as well as casue other phytotoxin issues and sensitivites within the gut.

Again, I agree with Peater as he mentioned 'taking care of the basics' such as the electrolytes and the B vitamins. I would also like to add vitamin D to that list. She should make sure that she is getting an adequate supply of calcium, magnesium, potassium, and sodium. And yes, it would be much more preferrable to get these from food rather than supplements, as most supplements contain exipients that may irritate the gut even more. Magnesium may need to be supplemented in addition to food intake, so make sure to use a pure supplement without the added exipients (like magnesium glycinate from purebulk.com or bulksupplements.com, etc.).

I think that trying cypro would not be a bad idea, but she should do so at night as you are already aware of the grogginess issues that may come with it.

 

[curious_anthro]

Yeah grains can irritate the digestive system causing excess serotonin to be produced.

Have you got any Progest-E? That might be worth trying as she is female. (I am male and have tried it, some benefits but it can be anti androgenic for men)

Yes I have a bottle I was thinking of giving her but as a female who had to do a lot of experimentation to get it right with progesterone, I’m hesitant to suggest that right away! It’s so hard because progesterone can be lifesaving for many women but it can be a rocky start once you start kicking that estrogen out of the cells and tissues

 

[curious_anthro]

I agree with Peater, excess serotonin may be an issue. She should try having a daily carrot salad with olive oil to help combat any gut/serotonin issues. She can also try cooked mushrooms, as these will similarly clean out the gut as well as offer anti-aromatase benefits which in turn should help lower estrogen.

Eliminating straches in the diet should also help (grains and legumes) as these can contribute to higher endotoxin and serotinin issues. I would also recommend that she avoid green leafy vegetables, cruciferous vegetables, as well as nightshade vegetables, since these may hinder mineral absorbtion as well as casue other phytotoxin issues and sensitivites within the gut.

Again, I agree with Peater as he mentioned 'taking care of the basics' such as the electrolytes and the B vitamins. I would also like to add vitamin D to that list. She should make sure that she is getting an adequate supply of calcium, magnesium, potassium, and sodium. And yes, it would be much more preferrable to get these from food rather than supplements, as most supplements contain exipients that may irritate the gut even more. Magnesium may need to be supplemented in addition to food intake, so make sure to use a pure supplement without the added exipients (like magnesium glycinate from purebulk.com or bulksupplements.com, etc.).

I think that trying cypro would not be a bad idea, but she should do so at night as you are already aware of the grogginess issues that may come with it.

Thanks so much for chiming in! This is helpful as I was already thinking along these lines. I fear she may need a more powerful intervention at some point, something like Cypro or progesterone maybe.

Has anyone had any experience with idealabs for these issues that could recommend a product? Maybe Lisuride or 10-methoxy-harmalan?

 

[mostlylurking]

I have a friend who is really struggling with her mental health, on the brink of being admitted, and has been on SSRIs for several years (but recently quit). I really want to help her implement some better lifestyle habits, maybe some supplements, but I wondered if anyone has any tips when just starting out on that journey who has been through something similar? I haven’t struggled too much with this side of things myself. I know there is a plethora of info on the forum about this but I want to suggest some simple, effective things she could try straight away as someone new to Ray Peat. I have already given her dietary recommendations.

I was thinking of suggesting progesterone and maybe vitamin E to get a handle on estrogen. Maybe Cypro too? But worried about the grogginess she may experience. Any advice is so appreciated!!

I think that progesterone would be benificial so perhaps providing her with these audio interviews would be helpful?

• Politics & Science: Progesterone Part 1
• Politics & Science: Progesterone Part 2
• Politics & Science: Progesterone Part 3

In addition, especially if she has been taking SSRIs, it probably would be a good idea to look into the need for thiamine to clear serotonin from the brain, etc.

for your consideration:

Effect of thiamine deficiency on brain serotonin turnover - PubMed

Serotonin turnover has been investigated in regional brain areas of rats made thiamine deficient by pyrithiamine (PT). Following intracisternal injection of [14C]5-hydroxytryptamine ([14C]5-HT), a marked increase in the accumulation of [14C]5-hydroxyindoleacetic acid ([14C]5-HIAA) was found in...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Frontiers | Neurological, Psychiatric, and Biochemical Aspects of Thiamine Deficiency in Children and Adults

Thiamine (vitamin B1) is an essential nutrient that serves as a cofactor for a number of enzymes, mostly with mitochondrial localization. Some thiamine-depen...

www.frontiersin.org

Serotonin Syndrome and Thiamine: Is There a Connection? - Hormones Matter

A mild deficiency of thiamine is responsible for the large number of the polysymptomatic illnesses reported.

www.hormonesmatter.com

 

[curious_anthro]

I think that progesterone would be benificial so perhaps providing her with these audio interviews would be helpful?

• Politics & Science: Progesterone Part 1
• Politics & Science: Progesterone Part 2
• Politics & Science: Progesterone Part 3

In addition, especially if she has been taking SSRIs, it probably would be a good idea to look into the need for thiamine to clear serotonin from the brain.

for your consideration:

Effect of thiamine deficiency on brain serotonin turnover - PubMed

Serotonin turnover has been investigated in regional brain areas of rats made thiamine deficient by pyrithiamine (PT). Following intracisternal injection of [14C]5-hydroxytryptamine ([14C]5-HT), a marked increase in the accumulation of [14C]5-hydroxyindoleacetic acid ([14C]5-HIAA) was found in...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Frontiers | Neurological, Psychiatric, and Biochemical Aspects of Thiamine Deficiency in Children and Adults

Thiamine (vitamin B1) is an essential nutrient that serves as a cofactor for a number of enzymes, mostly with mitochondrial localization. Some thiamine-depen...

www.frontiersin.org

Serotonin Syndrome and Thiamine: Is There a Connection? - Hormones Matter

A mild deficiency of thiamine is responsible for the large number of the polysymptomatic illnesses reported.

www.hormonesmatter.com

Great resources thanks. Thiamine is a good shout, didn’t think of that one. Do you think a b-complex with thiamine is better or thiamine on its own? Think Tommo Littlewood has a decent b complex without b12 and high thiamine.

 

[mostlylurking]

Great resources thanks. Thiamine is a good shout, didn’t think of that one. Do you think a b-complex with thiamine is better or thiamine on its own? Think Tommo Littlewood has a decent b complex without b12 and high thiamine.

Do you have a link to that b complex? I may be interested. I would need to look at the contents in order to give my thoughts on if it is good or not.

Normally, the thiamine in a b-complex is inadequate. I take high dose thiamine hcl and it has helped me a lot so I'm biased towards it, but other people take TTFD or other types.

Here's a rundown on the types of thiamine supplements:

Navigating Thiamine Supplements- Hormones Matter

Understanding the different forms of vitamin B1.

www.hormonesmatter.com

Taking some magnesium would be a good idea; it's needed for thiamine to work and if you're deficient in magnesium, taking thiamine can make the deficiency worse.

There's a sublingual thiamine mononitrate that may be of interest to you; it gets into the bloodstream quickly without having to go through the gut wall. Source. I could feel the effect from taking one tablet. Did it for a week or so. But I went back to thiamine hcl, mainly because I'm familiar with the amount of it that does the trick for me; I have heavy metal poisoning and have high dosed thiamine hcl for almost 3 years.

 

[Peater]

10-methoxy-harmalan?

I was actually going to suggest that very thing, and 6 keto prog. I am male so I get on far, far better with that version. Exactly as you say, Progest-E needs some initial dialing in and I don't think it would be as much of an issue with this.

10MH is good stuff, but very powerful. It's hard to describe how it works, it doesn't make me euphoric but it sort of makes it easier to enjoy the existing sensations of life and new thoughts come to mind easily.

It's hard to say if cypro would help, I like it for sleep but if I take too much I find the groggy feeling next day distressing (That could be from lowered stress hormones but somehow it still isn't pleasant) I wonder if counter-intuitively this might not be enjoyable for her.

 

[Peatress]

It’s good that she is off SSRIs. Is she getting enough salt?

Antidepressants and the risk of hyponatremia: a class-by-class review of literature - PubMed

Hyponatremia is a potentially dangerous side effect of antidepressants and is not exclusive to SSRIs. Current evidence suggests a relatively higher risk of hyponatremia with SSRIs and venlafaxine, especially when combined with patient risk factors, warranting clinicians to be aware of this...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Salt Might Be 'Nature's Antidepressant'

Most people consume far too much salt, and now a researcher has discovered one potential reason we crave it: it might put us in a better mood.

www.sciencedaily.com

 

[curious_anthro]

Do you have a link to that b complex? I may be interested. I would need to look at the contents in order to give my thoughts on if it is good or not.

Normally, the thiamine in a b-complex is inadequate. I take high dose thiamine hcl and it has helped me a lot so I'm biased towards it, but other people take TTFD or other types.

Here's a rundown on the types of thiamine supplements:

Navigating Thiamine Supplements- Hormones Matter

Understanding the different forms of vitamin B1.

www.hormonesmatter.com

Taking some magnesium would be a good idea; it's needed for thiamine to work and if you're deficient in magnesium, taking thiamine can make the deficiency worse.

There's a sublingual thiamine mononitrate that may be of interest to you; it gets into the bloodstream quickly without having to go through the gut wall. Source. I could feel the effect from taking one tablet. Did it for a week or so. But I went back to thiamine hcl, mainly because I'm familiar with the amount of it that does the trick for me; I have heavy metal poisoning and have high dosed thiamine hcl for almost 3 years.

This is the b-complex. Can attest to the quality of his supplements, I buy most stuff on his site now as I’m UK based. B complex 100ml (Without B12) — Balanced Body Mind

Thanks for the thiamine info. I tried some myself for a while and noticed some positive effects initially but then they seemed to taper off. But maybe that’s because I got my levels straightened out or something. I’ve heard good things about the sublingual but couldn’t find any in the UK!

 

[curious_anthro]

I was actually going to suggest that very thing, and 6 keto prog. I am male so I get on far, far better with that version. Exactly as you say, Progest-E needs some initial dialing in and I don't think it would be as much of an issue with this.

10MH is good stuff, but very powerful. It's hard to describe how it works, it doesn't make me euphoric but it sort of makes it easier to enjoy the existing sensations of life and new thoughts come to mind easily.

It's hard to say if cypro would help, I like it for sleep but if I take too much I find the groggy feeling next day distressing (That could be from lowered stress hormones but somehow it still isn't pleasant) I wonder if counter-intuitively this might not be enjoyable for her.

That’s good to know! Won’t hurt to suggest 10MH, anything is better than SSRIs which her doctors are pushing her to get back on. She said they gave her really bad stomach pains and nausea that has lasted even after stopping. As well as heart palpitations.

Did you experience any dizziness or inconsistent feelings with 10MH?

She is female so I think Progest-e will serve her well. After trying different types of progesterone, that one has made me feel best.

 

[curious_anthro]

It’s good that she is off SSRIs. Is she getting enough salt?

Antidepressants and the risk of hyponatremia: a class-by-class review of literature - PubMed

Hyponatremia is a potentially dangerous side effect of antidepressants and is not exclusive to SSRIs. Current evidence suggests a relatively higher risk of hyponatremia with SSRIs and venlafaxine, especially when combined with patient risk factors, warranting clinicians to be aware of this...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Salt Might Be 'Nature's Antidepressant'

Most people consume far too much salt, and now a researcher has discovered one potential reason we crave it: it might put us in a better mood.

www.sciencedaily.com

Good one. She said she has major salt cravings so have encouraged her to top up!

 

[Peater]

Did you experience any dizziness or inconsistent feelings with 10MH?

No it's been one of the most consistent and side effects free things I've tried, but it is strong and seems as though it could effect people differently. For me it's a keeper but be aware it could lower her prolactin significantly.

 

[mostlylurking]

This is the b-complex. Can attest to the quality of his supplements, I buy most stuff on his site now as I’m UK based. B complex 100ml (Without B12) — Balanced Body Mind

Thanks for the thiamine info. I tried some myself for a while and noticed some positive effects initially but then they seemed to taper off. But maybe that’s because I got my levels straightened out or something. I’ve heard good things about the sublingual but couldn’t find any in the UK!

Thanks. The product looks pretty good to me. But I suspect you would need to take it several times a day, maybe?

When I started taking high dose thiamine hcl, I started with about 300mg, 2Xday and wound up increasing the dose every 7-10 days in order to maintain the positive effects. After 4 months and getting my dose up to 750mg, 2Xday and the effects waning yet again, I searched on line and found Dr. Costantini's protocol for treating Parkinson's Disease patients with thiamine hcl. According to that info, my optimum dose would be 1 gram, 2Xday so I tried that. Within 2 days, I experienced massive improvements in some very long term health problems with my digestive tract. I have stayed on that dose for about 2.5 years and I continue to do well on it. I have mercury poisoning; the high dose thiamine hcl has been a godsend for me. I take other b's too, not high dose and also magnesium glycinate.

The sublingual type of thiamine is available on Amazon. I've tried it, it does work. But I'm happy just high dosing the thiamine hcl; I know what my optimum dose of it is.

 

[Peater]

Good one. She said she has major salt cravings so have encouraged her to top up!

That's a good sign - make sure she's just adding salt to good food not eating salted crisps or peanuts! It would be an easy mistake to make.

Also get her a tub of vanilla haagendaz as it's got pure ingredients and will be a nice peaty treat for her!