Urgent Wish List For Depression And Anxiety Meds For 20 Year Old

[Sucrates]

Progesterone seems the obvious thing to investigate. Glycine up to 15g/day if there are no (GI) side effects. Tianeptine is worth investigating, though is huge a problem above the recommended doses of 3x12mg/day. I'd be pretty cautious with reserpine too, well with everything in this context. I think weed is likely a problem.

 

[meatbag]

But you suggested taking exog 5a-DHP, which is not Pregnanolone.

No I didn't. I posted a thread where haidut discusses findings indicating the antidespressent effects of allopregnolone and the true antidepressant mechanisms of the commonly prescribed SSRIs. No where in my post did I recommend 5α-DHP, I put quotes around the statement which means it was not me saying it, it was a quote. The intention was to give a preview of what is discussed in the thread ....

 

[nasibi]

No I didn't. I posted a thread where haidut discusses findings indicating the antidespressent effects of allopregnolone and the true antidepressant mechanisms of the commonly prescribed SSRIs. No where in my post did I recommend 5α-DHP, I put quotes around the statement which means it was not me saying it, it was a quote. The intention was to give a preview of what is discussed in the thread ....

It's all good. No need to be aggressive. Probably you need some Magnesium along with P5P.

 

[meatbag]

It's all good. No need to be aggressive. Probably you need some Magnesium along with P5P.

No aggression, I just didn't say what you claimed I did and I corrected it

 

[SQu]

My heartfelt thanks to you all. I am feeling less helpless and more encouraged.

Have you researched this forum for the use of B vitamins in the treatment of depression?

I am a fan, I think she did not feel much effect when I was giving it to her. But some of the other details mentioned in this thread like sleep and protein may explain why not.

Pregnenalone does almost nothing for me, at least on the surface, but progesterone is much stronger.

Good to know that some people feel very little. She uses the cream but I am thinking of replacing it with the oral like I take, which has helped me a lot.

Last but not least, take a deep breath,

Thank you alywest.

Maybe try asking her to take a zinc supplement. High copper/low zinc makes people want to go vegan and going vegan further decreases zinc and increases copper in a vicious circle. Low zinc/high copper is strongly implicated in many mental issues.

Interesting. I didn't know that. It kind of clicks because I think something was pushing her away from meat and I was wondering if it was something like ammonia. So there might be a similar body signal on the zinc/copper thing there.

It might be good for her to keep seeing a practitioner or someone to talk to. Maybe just Psychologist or Alternative Health practitioner, Acupuncturist, TCM doctor. Someone who isn't gonna try to pump her full of pharma meds like all these professional pill vending machines.

Yes. Maybe we just slow down on the psychiatrist talk and see how it goes with the therapy.

Poor quality sleep won't help as well. We make our hormones when we sleep, especially thyroid and cortisol. So if she is skipping sleeping or sleeping at irregular times her thyroid and cortisol production will be off balance.

She has a terrible insomnia problem. Terrible. I do too, but it came later in my case.

You would need some blood tests first to see how the thyroid is doing though, Often docs will say all is ok, but the results are far from ok.

Exactly. Symptoms suggest she's hypo like me, but TSH is in range.

I wouldn't use any benzo's, SSRI or any pharmaceutical drugs that effects neurotransmitter pathways. There are entire forums dedicated to people who have used these drugs and are suffering for it (look up benzo buddies, post finasteride syndrome, post SSRI syndrome). If the post finasterid syndrome thread was still up you would see an example of the effects. These medications effect pathways and upregulate and downregulate "receptors" and cellular function in ways that we don't know.

Thanks for this info. In fact I'm going to ask her to read this thread so she can hear it from people like you, close to her age.

The mental symptoms are most likely gut related and metabolism related. Im not a father, but I know what worked with me when i was younger and even now (i'm 22) was my dad being blatant, honesy and frank with me about things even if I got angry with him. Our relationship is stronger and I eventually made the right desicions. Lead the horse to water and if she doesnt decide to drink, shes on her own... you can only be thirsty and dehydrated for so long.

I think you are right about the gut and have thought as much for some time. Mostly because of the effect on mood that I know from my own experience.

+1 on the metergoline idea. Haidut posted elsewhere about a study that showed even a 1x week dose was helpful, so that might help with the compliance issue. Also you can just get it from IdeaLabs if the doc doesn't like the idea.

I'm going to look into this for sure.

I would suggest not urging her to quit smoking while she's in this state. Although there's a lot of purely psychological stuff going on with smoking, there definitely is a physical component, and if she isn't feeding herself well or she's hypothyroid or estrogen dominant, etc., the cigarettes may be one of the main things that are keeping her on her feet. I had a major crash when I quit because I didn't realize just how much smoking was helping me at the time. It took many (very difficult) months to recover.

Yes thanks for the advice. She sometimes tries to stop overnight and I can tell what a toll it takes on her to do it this way. I agree they are helping, in a way, and shouldn't be stopped abruptly.

Also maybe try talking about vegetarianism or just getting more protein. I don't like eating animal friends either but eating eggs, honey, and milk are the only things that don't actually kill a living thing when we eat it :) Also has she tried vitamin d? Some people are very susceptible to depression if they aren't getting enough. Peat likens it as akin to thyroid

I think this is also very, very true. She is studying in a place that is not as easy to get enough vitamin d, but she does spend a lot of time outdoors. But I have wondered.

Such great input, can't thank you enough.

 

[Constatine]

Tell her to get 5+ hours of sunlight a day. I've never seen a case where that didn't help.

 

[SQu]

Tell her to get 5+ hours of sunlight a day. I've never seen a case where that didn't help.

She gets several , maybe 2-3 but probably not 5. It does a lot for me too, very balancing. Very.

Progesterone seems the obvious thing to investigate. Glycine up to 15g/day if there are no (GI) side effects. Tianeptine is worth investigating, though is huge a problem above the recommended doses of 3x12mg/day. I'd be pretty cautious with reserpine too, well with everything in this context. I think weed is likely a problem.

I agree. Glycine, I'd have to try her on that, she won't have gelatin anymore. And progesterone, it has changed my life, and she had lots of teenage period trouble until recently suggesting progesterone again. Weed seems to be coming up as a contributing factor. Thanks for the feedback on tianeptine and reserpine.

Thank you

 

[meatbag]

Thank you. Our relationship is close. I prefer for her to find these things out for herself as it's much more powerful in my experience. She is already thinking along these lines. She's honest with herself and a greater seeker of truth. A hobby is a great idea and the obvious one is a pet. I'm going to see about that one. It's great to have this feedback, thank you.
P.S. Thank you for the clips, very useful


She did one within the year, all fine, TSH not out of range. No surprises there, but still I am sure she's hypo, but I'll never get a doctor to prescribe if it's in range and I won't get anything ordered online past customs here.


That's great thank you, I know she's wanting dopaminergic effects, like me. Pregnenolone+theanine+magnesium totally works for me, but not enough in her case.

Thanks for those suggestions, I will follow up. I appreciate the help.

"This study discovered that vitamin D is another potent dopamine agonist, and that its dopaminergic activity contributes to its effects on reducing diet-induced obesity and drug addiction behaviors. The study reminds me of another one, which found that vitamin D reduced peripheral serotonin synthesis."-haidut
Vitamin D Is Dopaminergic And Decreases Obesity And Addiction Behaviors
---

"In theory, anything that reduces prolactin will likely also reduce estrogen and vice versa. So, since vitamin A is anti-estrogenic I wondered if there is evidence that vitamin A will lower prolactin and/or increase dopamine. Below is some evidence that vitamin A is indeed dopaminergic and lowers prolactin. The human dose was about 100,000 IU per day or pre-formed all-trans retinoic acid.
Given the human study showing significant fall in prolactin from 300mg vitamin E daily, this likely makes the vitamin A + vitamin E combo a viable option for people wanting to reduce prolactin / estrogen."
Vitamin A is dopaminergic and reduces prolactin in humans
----
"The study was really on alcohol consumption what affects it. It has been known since the 1960s that people drink more when under stress but to this day mainstream medicine denies that there is a causative link between stress and substance abuse. I posted a few studies showing that "addicts" have higher levels of cortisol and that lowering cortisol or opposing its effects usually terminates the "addictive" behavior."
Stress Leads To Lower Dopamine And More Drinking
----
"The so-called "glucocorticoid resistance" is thought be behind a number of degenerative conditions including diabetes, depression, schizophrenia, chronic inflammation, autoimmune conditions, etc. The condition, similar to insulin resistance, is characterized by elevated serum cortisol levels and low suppression by synthetic glucocorticoids like dexamethasone. Agents that restore the sensitivity of the glucocorticoid receptor lead to decrease of serum cortisol levels, and are thought to be one of the most promising therapeutic agents for chronic disease.
The study below found that vitamin D is one such chemical, and confirmed its effects in humans."
Vitamin D Restores Sensitivity To Cortisol
---
Also to back up what others like @alywest said sufficient B-vitamin nutrition can be helpful. Its also been pointed out that it may not be a good idea to use these in isolation (ex; just vitamin b1) so probably good to take a complex like Idealabs 'Energin' for example.
"I have posted a number of studies over the last year showing that vitamin B6 acts acts as an anti-adrenalin and anti-glucocorticoid. As these two substances are obviously elevated in conditions of stress, one might conjecture that controlling them with vitamin B6 would be desirable."-haidut
Vitamin B6 As Effective, General Anti-stress Therapy
----
I know you wrote about how you're looking for something dopaminergic, but if inadequate protein isn't consumed the body won't be able to produce sufficient dopamine no matter what hormone, supplement, or drug is taken. Vegans typically have a very difficult time getting sufficient protein, and even then sufficient amounts of the necessary amino acids for good dopamine synthesis. Maybe @haidut can add more to this as I know he's discussed it before

"Peat has written about this, but I will reiterate. Anything less than 1g/kg b.w. of protein per day will create a protein deficiency and will put you in a catabolic state and will also strain the liver and brain with all the ammonia from muscle breakdown, with ammonia buildup being a classic cause of general fatigue. Also, without adequate protein you will have no dopamine and this alone will make you feel like crap. Finally, low protein intake means no conversion of T4 into T3 by the liver."- Haidut

"A simple protein deficiency has many surprising effects. It lowers body temperature, and suppresses the thyroid, but it increases inflammation and the tendency of blood to clot. Since the brain and heart and lungs require a continuous supply of essential amino acids if they are to continue functioning, in the absence of dietary protein, cortisol must be produced continuously to mobilize amino acids from the expendable tissues, which are mainly the skeletal muscles. These muscles have a high concentration of tryptophan and cysteine, which suppress the thyroid. Cysteine is excitoxic, and tryptophan is the precursor for serotonin. Presumably, their presence in, and stress-induced release from, the muscles is one of the mechanisms that reduce metabolic activity during certain types of stress."-Ray Peat
--------

"
Blue-Blocking Level 1
Don’t look at any electronic screens unless you have apps installed to dim the blue light, such as f.lux on Mac, f.lux beta for Windows, Nightshift for iPhone (part of the displays and brightness settings), or Twilight on Android (I don’t own an Android but this was recommended to me).

For ambient lighting, use the dimmest lights you have that won’t cause eye strain.

Blue-Blocking Level 2
Although level 1 might be sufficient for some people, for many including myself, it isn’t. Level 2 involves much more complete blue-blocking.

Here’s what you need:

• Several specially designed low-blue amber-colored light bulbs, such as these from lowbluelights.com. Consider their night light and flash light as well.
• A pair of blue-blocking glasses. I recommend Swannies on the basis that they are just as effective as the glasses that make me look like a robotic ant and yet are rather stylish. The same blue-blocking apps as in level 1: f.lux on Mac, f.lux beta for Windows, Nightshift for iPhone or Twilight on Android.

- Chris Masterjohn Phd
Better Sleep
---
"First, it adds to the evidence that bipolar disorder is probably environmental in origin, possibly linked to blue light pollution. Second, it adds to the evidence for a link between high cortisol / serotonin and bipolar disorder as blue light strongly stimulates cortisol and serotonin release. Third, it suggests that for many people treating this condition officially labelled as "incurable" may be as simple as wearing orange-tinted glasses at night or sleeping in a room with orange/amber light filters attached to the window glass."
Blocking Blue Light Can Cure Bipolar Disorder

 

[Dhair]

I don't know why everyone is so focused on the supplements with this one.
The girl is clearly not eating enough, and she's not eating nutritious foods. If you can't convince her to stop being so orthorexic, I'm not sure what options you have.
Cyproheptadine is really the only thing I would give someone in this case. It will stimulate her appetite, and I guarantee she will find out very quickly that she cannot possibly feel satiated on a vegan diet.

 

[alywest]

Also to back up what others like @alywest said sufficient B-vitamin nutrition can be helpful. Its also been pointed out that it may not be a good idea to use these in isolation (ex; just vitamin b1) so probably good to take a complex like Idealabs 'Energin' for example.

Wow, you gave such a thorough response, I'm sure many people will be interested in reading it as reference as well.

I also mentioned energin, but brought up thiamine specifically in the context that at certain high enough levels it can actually behave as a carbonic anhydrase inhibitor, like acetazolamide:

"it is specifically the low pH caused by high lactate that is a likely cause of the mental/mood disturbances. As we all know, high lactate is a sign of poor metabolism and specifically poor metabolism (wasting) of glucose. It can be caused by many factors including hypothyroidism, vitamin B1 (thiamine) deficiency, elevated FFA/lipolysis/cortisol/adrenaline/serotonin/prolactin/etc. This confirms once again the metabolic origin of these conditions, just as Ray first wrote about 40 yeas ago. And, as the post above suggests, dietary measures to improve metabolism and lower lactate levels can be quite therapeutic. In addition to acetazolamide (and other carbonic anhydrase inhibitors), thiamine is well-known to lower lactate due to its role as a cofactor of the enzyme PDH. Another way to lower lactate is to increase the NAD/NADH ratio, which can effectively be done by things like niacinamide and methylene blue, as well as thyroid. Needless to say, both methylene blue and niacinamide/niacin have been used in the past to successfully treat mental disorders. I posted a few human studies with methylene blue and I think most people here are aware of the trials run by Hoffer back in the 1960s and 1970s.
Niacinamide Causes Dramatic Increase In Nad And Fall In Lactate
Methylene Blue As A Treatment For Manic Depressive Psychosis
A Controlled Trial Of Methylene Blue In Severe Depressive Illness
" -@haidut

 

[meatbag]

.

 

[SQu]

s study discovered that vitamin D is another potent dopamine agonist, and that its dopaminergic activity contributes to its effects on reducing diet-induced obesity and drug addiction behaviors. The study reminds me of another one, which found that vitamin D reduced peripheral serotonin synthesis."-haidut
Vitamin D Is Dopaminergic And Decreases Obesity And Addiction Behaviors

This I feel is the way out for her, I've thought so for a long time and yet my efforts ... so far have not succeeded. The dopaminergic approach. I use it myself, and nothing else has made such a difference to my state of mind so I am sure it should help her.

I think a Vitamin D test is probably due. Do you think at 20 she could be deficient? Even though until studying she lived in a very vitamin D 'rich' place? And it's still not bad.
Of course so do I have access to all this vitamin D you'd think, yet I was low when tested a few years ago in spite of theoretically getting enough. I supplement now myself.

I'm sure there is even more good info on the forum and from Ray Peat about depression and the associated causes and issues and I'll try to post more when I can. Hope that info is helpful and your daughter gets to feeling better!

Thank you and best to you in your own searches.

 

[SQu]

Yeah I don't disagree but a lot of times it hard to get college age girls to eat anything but soy lattes, crackers and spaghetti lol. Maybe if a b-vitamin complex, fat soluble vitamins, and milk protein shakes made her feel better she be more open to the idea of "your input determines your output". Also I think the sleep and circadian stuff is a factor for many college students and goes hand in hand with diet and the rest of the lifestyle

I know! :) So true! Mom going on and on about her vitamins is not cool! And does not fit with the lifestyle! I am the family joke ...
seriously they laugh about me one day being 99 and still going on about vitamins. It's frustrating seeing their eyes glaze over meanwhile I know what I'm telling them is so much more radical than anything on the media, really.

In all seriousness I tend to snow her with info and I'm hoping she'll take up my advice to read this thread for herself. Coming from others closer to her age it may make more impact and yes @Dhair, I agree sufficient calories not to mention protein may play quite a role.

 

[alywest]

Progesterone seems the obvious thing to investigate. Glycine up to 15g/day if there are no (GI) side effects. Tianeptine is worth investigating, though is huge a problem above the recommended doses of 3x12mg/day. I'd be pretty cautious with reserpine too, well with everything in this context. I think weed is likely a problem.

I agree with all of this, except tianeptine seems like such a pain to get a hold of, and expensive if you do. Lisuride isn't cheap but the idealabs bottle has lasted me a long time. That combined with cypro seem to be a really good combo. It makes sense if she likes magic mushrooms

 

[Dhair]

I agree with all of this, except tianeptine seems like such a pain to get a hold of, and expensive if you do. Lisuride isn't cheap but the idealabs bottle has lasted me a long time. That combined with cypro seem to be a really good combo. It makes sense if she likes magic mushrooms

What kind of effects do you notice from cypro and lisuride?

 

[Constatine]

She gets several , maybe 2-3 but probably not 5. It does a lot for me too, very balancing. Very.



I agree. Glycine, I'd have to try her on that, she won't have gelatin anymore. And progesterone, it has changed my life, and she had lots of teenage period trouble until recently suggesting progesterone again. Weed seems to be coming up as a contributing factor. Thanks for the feedback on tianeptine and reserpine.

Thank you

Does she wear sunglasses outdoors. That can negate much of the benefits.

 

[alywest]

What kind of effects do you notice from cypro and lisuride?

Warmer, more calm. That combined with the high doses of b vitamins, particularly thiamine (1500 mg a day for carbonic anhydrase inhibition, equivalent to acetazolamide), has been consistently great. I think cypro can interfere with sleep if taken at night, so I usually take lisuride only at night, or neither if I'm feeling calm with progesterone alone.

 

[Makrosky]

My daughter (I asked advice re her veganism) just saw a therapist who sees many high performing students like her and says she urgently needs to see a psychiatrist for meds for depression and anxiety. I think this is true. I could do more if she was close by and if her mental state did not make compliance patchy with many peaty things I try and support her with (pregnenolone, theanine, magnesium at the moment, pared down from a longer list, and regular good meals etc). I suspect even when she takes these she needs more than I think I can get a script for in the case of pregnenolone (i.e. more than 200mg/day)
So at this stage I am trying to at least get my wish list in for when she goes to the appointment. I'd like her to be able to suggest what might be more effective and less damaging prescription meds, and to know what to attempt to steer the doctor away from if necessary, like SSRIs.
I can't really add anything complex or too way off linear medical thinking. I.e. MB, DMSO, LSD derivatives unless familiar in the medical mainstream.
She self medicates on cigarettes, weed (with my knowledge but not my blessing), this the therapist advised her to taper down and off. She has found benefit in meditation, and occasional careful low dose 'magic mushroom' ie golden teacher (again, I am glad she informs me, I don't condone, I don't judge, I am hesitant and concerned, I know she is not partying on them but attempting to help herself). If she cuts down I see she turns to alcohol instead, she really is in need of relief. I personally find the things I give her so powerful for me but for her, seems they are just not enough. (assuming she takes them of course. she's far away. i may go there myself if necessary, if i can help.)

If anyone can contribute good/bad meds I'd be very grateful. I'd also like her to stop the vegan thing if she isn't doing it well enough (and she probably isn't able to at the moment) but she's very passionate about it ...

So far: main thing, no SSRIs;

maybe a MAO-B inhibitor (brand or generic names??)
reserpine? (brand names?)
deprenyl (selegiline)?
isoniazid?

I'll add as I continue to search. Anyone been there?

I know you're asking for meds... but.... what happens to her? emotionally speaking. How old is she ? All that sounds like a personal identity chrisis or something like that. Also, I don't think smoking cigarretes, weed and drinking on the weekends is that bad.

Anyway, what about herbs? St John Worth, Tulsi, Rhodiola, etc... since she's into veganism she might like that idea MUCH MORE. Look about Tulsi, it's an adaptogenic herb sacred in India (I think that idea will make her much more attracted to use it).

 

[RedStaR]

Bupropion is fine for depression.

 

[SQu]

Lisuride isn't cheap but the idealabs bottle has lasted me a long time. That combined with cypro seem to be a really good combo. It makes sense if she likes magic mushrooms

I like this thinking because I also observe and see patterns and try and work with them. Lisuride I don't think is available in this country but I will do some digging. There is a very big likelihood that online orders won't get through customs because of ineptitude, theft, inertia, confusion about what the heck it is and whether or not it is allowed. We're talking about attitudes that are stupid obstructive lazy and just not interested. I've done some asking at couriers like DHL which seem more promising but again, they are unfamiliar with these substances and can't say for sure. What it means is that for the most part I'm stuck with what doctors will prescribe though they are less of a closed door here than I read on this forum, what others go through with doctors and tests and TSH ranges and so on. For example my doctor has been prepared to prescribe pregnenolone and throid meds in my case as TSH was once out of range (once, in many years, once. by which time I was at rock bottom. Anyways...)

Does she wear sunglasses outdoors. That can negate much of the benefits.

Mostly not but I'll remind her.

hat happens to her? emotionally speaking.

She gets stressed, wound up, anxious, then can't sleep. Very stressed. She aims very very high academically but does not have the support in place for her body and mind.

Look about Tulsi, it's an adaptogenic herb sacred in India (I think that idea will make her much more attracted to use it).

I used to swear by this in a herbal tea. They call it holy basil?? I think. Great suggestion.

I'm thinking back to basics: enough calories, enough protein. Progesterone.