Could someone please explain why "low serotonin" symptoms fit so well if we are suppose to be reducing it?

[AlisonG]

My daughter has been struggling with "dark cloud" episodes and intense anxiety for a few years now (she's 18). When she googles "Low Serotonin," (as was suggested by her therapist) the symptoms seem to be describing her perfectly:
- Chronic fatigue
- Disturbed sleep (she has nightmares every night)
- Loss of appetite, Carb cravings (but not for juice or fruit)
- Temperature changes
- Social withdrawal
- Sadness and crying
- Irritability
- Low self-confidence
This list fits even better than the descriptions of "Low thyroid" or "Low Progesterone," though of course there is overlap. She reads that list and thinks, "Oh, I need an SSRI," and after all, half of her friends are on one.
I wish I had more science/medical background! I need to know how to answer her. Could someone please explain why this list fits her so well, if the solution is not to "raise Serotonin"?

 

[Risingfire]

Sounds like HIGH serotonin. Low thyroid and progesterone are most likely to be causing the increase. Have you checked her temp and pulse?

 

[Megamole]

All those symptoms you’ve listed seem to describe poor metabolic function to a tee.

Track temperature and pulse, first thing in the morning upon waking and again a few hours later. By comparing the two readings you can learn a lot.

Strong cravings for complex carbs but lack of desire for simple sugars could potentially be due to bacterial overgrowth in the intestine. Carrot salad is a good starting point.

I find fruit and salt before bed helps my sleep and sleep of people I recommend it to. As regards to nightmares I was able to help an acquaintance who suffered chronic night terrors with methylene blue and pregnenolone.

Boosting CO2 levels in the body help move body back towards proper metabolic function. Aspirin and B vitamins (particularly B1 & B3) are good for this.

For what it’s worth my understanding of SSRI’s is that their antidepressant effects come from slightly raising Allopregnanolone production in the brain rather than having anything to do with serotonin being good. In fact you could make the argument that any benefits seen from SSRI’s is DESPITE their serotonin boosting rather than because of it. Try cyproheptadine or Benadryl before bed, both antagonise serotonin.

 

[AlbertScent5G]

Research on serotonin is full of interesting contradictions.
Since it does many different things across the whole body and is ubiquitous among animals and plants, this speaks to its fundamental-ness.

I would question how coming up with such conclusions (how x serotonin levels correlate with y symptoms) were established, especially given that brain levels and blood levels don't necessary correspond.

Some relevant contradictions to consider include its relationship with fatigue and torpor, the fact that it induces contraction in blood vessels and the intestine (diarrhea and temperature instability/flushing are pathognomonic for serotonin syndrome) among others.

My intuitive suspicion is that it serves to limit consciousness/brain metabolism to prevent the damage that an anticipated stressor would cause in its absence.
If that's true, pharmacology of different sorts might be helpful, but finding the nature, cause, and scope of stressors should help, especially if they are controllable.

 

[Peater]

My daughter has been struggling with "dark cloud" episodes and intense anxiety for a few years now (she's 18). When she googles "Low Serotonin," (as was suggested by her therapist) the symptoms seem to be describing her perfectly:
- Chronic fatigue
- Disturbed sleep (she has nightmares every night)
- Loss of appetite, Carb cravings (but not for juice or fruit)
- Temperature changes
- Social withdrawal
- Sadness and crying
- Irritability
- Low self-confidence
This list fits even better than the descriptions of "Low thyroid" or "Low Progesterone," though of course there is overlap. She reads that list and thinks, "Oh, I need an SSRI," and after all, half of her friends are on one.
I wish I had more science/medical background! I need to know how to answer her. Could someone please explain why this list fits her so well, if the solution is not to "raise Serotonin"?

You might like this:


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZF1BuPjny_E

 

[Hans]

My daughter has been struggling with "dark cloud" episodes and intense anxiety for a few years now (she's 18). When she googles "Low Serotonin," (as was suggested by her therapist) the symptoms seem to be describing her perfectly:
- Chronic fatigue
- Disturbed sleep (she has nightmares every night)
- Loss of appetite, Carb cravings (but not for juice or fruit)
- Temperature changes
- Social withdrawal
- Sadness and crying
- Irritability
- Low self-confidence
This list fits even better than the descriptions of "Low thyroid" or "Low Progesterone," though of course there is overlap. She reads that list and thinks, "Oh, I need an SSRI," and after all, half of her friends are on one.
I wish I had more science/medical background! I need to know how to answer her. Could someone please explain why this list fits her so well, if the solution is not to "raise Serotonin"?

Things like destressing, thyroid, light exposure and proper sleep can increase serotonin in certain areas of the brain. Stressing can lower serotonin in certain areas of the brain. SSRIs increase serotonin mostly indiscriminately in the brain, which is not how it should be. Eating sufficient protein, exercising, staying away from social media, getting lots of sunlight, destressing, having a good time, etc, will get rid of all those symptoms. Proper diet and lifestyle. Forget about micromanaging specific neurotransmitters.

 

[aniciete]

Things like destressing, thyroid, light exposure and proper sleep can increase serotonin in certain areas of the brain. Stressing can lower serotonin in certain areas of the brain. SSRIs increase serotonin mostly indiscriminately in the brain, which is not how it should be. Eating sufficient protein, exercising, staying away from social media, getting lots of sunlight, destressing, having a good time, etc, will get rid of all those symptoms. Proper diet and lifestyle. Forget about micromanaging specific neurotransmitters.

Good advice here. IME, morning sunlight was the key to fixing my circadian rhythm and potently lowering stress.

 

[AlisonG]

Sounds like HIGH serotonin. Low thyroid and progesterone are most likely to be causing the increase. Have you checked her temp and pulse?

Yes, basals are around 97.5 and doesn't rise much after breakfast. T3 is on its way in the mail. She takes Progesterone cyclicly but nightmares are worse on the "off" weeks.

 

[AlisonG]

All those symptoms you’ve listed seem to describe poor metabolic function to a tee.

Track temperature and pulse, first thing in the morning upon waking and again a few hours later. By comparing the two readings you can learn a lot.

Strong cravings for complex carbs but lack of desire for simple sugars could potentially be due to bacterial overgrowth in the intestine. Carrot salad is a good starting point.

I find fruit and salt before bed helps my sleep and sleep of people I recommend it to. As regards to nightmares I was able to help an acquaintance who suffered chronic night terrors with methylene blue and pregnenolone.

Boosting CO2 levels in the body help move body back towards proper metabolic function. Aspirin and B vitamins (particularly B1 & B3) are good for this.

For what it’s worth my understanding of SSRI’s is that their antidepressant effects come from slightly raising Allopregnanolone production in the brain rather than having anything to do with serotonin being good. In fact you could make the argument that any benefits seen from SSRI’s is DESPITE their serotonin boosting rather than because of it. Try cyproheptadine or Benadryl before bed, both antagonise serotonin.

I have wondered about her bacterial overgrowth in the intestine, but she's never had any digestive complaints.
I don't really know about Methylene blue, but her serum Pregnenolone is out of range High, in spite of never supplementing.
Her serum cortisol is High, so I was trying to reduce it with Cypro @ 1mg. Strangely, She got a "wired" effect from it and make sleeping worse. She didn't want anymore after the second night of that. I'll read up on Allopregnanolone. Thank you!

 

[AlisonG]

Research on serotonin is full of interesting contradictions.
Since it does many different things across the whole body and is ubiquitous among animals and plants, this speaks to its fundamental-ness.

I would question how coming up with such conclusions (how x serotonin levels correlate with y symptoms) were established, especially given that brain levels and blood levels don't necessary correspond.

Some relevant contradictions to consider include its relationship with fatigue and torpor, the fact that it induces contraction in blood vessels and the intestine (diarrhea and temperature instability/flushing are pathognomonic for serotonin syndrome) among others.

My intuitive suspicion is that it serves to limit consciousness/brain metabolism to prevent the damage that an anticipated stressor would cause in its absence.
If that's true, pharmacology of different sorts might be helpful, but finding the nature, cause, and scope of stressors should help, especially if they are controllable.

Yes, I agree. Thank you!

 

[aliml]

In TCM, sugar cravings, anorexia, fatigue, anxiety, worry, rumination, etc. are symptoms of poor spleen function. Hippocrates thought that depression was caused by too much black bile (dark bile) in the spleen. There is also evidence that the brain-spleen axis may be involved in inflammatory depression. The spleen can become a reservoir of inflammatory cells and send messages to the brain that lead to behavioral changes.

Molecular mechanisms of the rapid-acting and long-lasting antidepressant actions of (R)-ketamine

Ketamine, an anesthetic developed in the early 1960s, is also a popular abused drug among young people at dance parties and raves and among spiritual …

www.sciencedirect.com

 

[Karime22]

In TCM, sugar cravings, anorexia, fatigue, anxiety, worry, rumination, etc. are symptoms of poor spleen function. Hippocrates thought that depression was caused by too much black bile (dark bile) in the spleen. There is also evidence that the brain-spleen axis may be involved in inflammatory depression. The spleen can become a reservoir of inflammatory cells and send messages to the brain that lead to behavioral changes.

View attachment 36080

@aliml This is very interesting! I have had many of these symptoms and had mild pain in the spleen area. What are some things that help the spleen?

 

[Risingfire]

Yes, basals are around 97.5 and doesn't rise much after breakfast. T3 is on its way in the mail. She takes Progesterone cyclicly but nightmares are worse on the "off" weeks.

What's her pulse? Check her temp in the late afternoon as well. Maybe supplement pregnenolone on the off weeks.

 

[aliml]

What are some things that help the spleen?

Foods Beneficial For The Spleen
Organic lightly cooked vegetables, corn, celery, watercress, turnip, pumpkin, alfalfa sprouts, button mushrooms, radish, caper
Brown rice, barley, amaranth, rye, oats
Legumes, kidney beans, adzuki beans, lentils
Small amount of lean organic meat, poultry and fish, tuna
Small amount of whole fruits, lemon; Sesame seeds, pumpkin seeds, sunflower seeds
Seaweed, kelp
Black pepper, cinnamon bark, clove, dill, fennel, garlic, ginger, peppermint, rosemary, sage, turmeric, thyme, horseradish, cayenne, nutmeg
Green tea, jasmine tea, raspberry leaf tea, chai tea

Foods That Hurt The Spleen
Dairy, Wheat, Cold drinks, Fruit juice, Cold raw foods
Processed foods, Refined flour, pastry, pasta, breads
Refined sugar and sugar substitutes
Coffee, alcohol, Deep fried foods
Peanuts and peanut butter
Bananas, avocado

Tips to protect your Spleen - Mark Gutkin LAc | Acupuncture, Herbs, Nutrition | Acupuncture Stamford CT | Acupuncture Fairfield County CT

In Chinese Medicine digestion is a main function of the Earth Element and is represented by The Spleen. Most of you are familiar with the function of this energy circuit (not a physical organ) but for those who forgot, here is a list of the main characteristics: The Spleen Is Responsible For...

markgutkin.com

 

[Karime22]

In TCM, sugar cravings, anorexia, fatigue, anxiety, worry, rumination, etc. are symptoms of poor spleen function. Hippocrates thought that depression was caused by too much black bile (dark bile) in the spleen. There is also evidence that the brain-spleen axis may be involved in inflammatory depression. The spleen can become a reservoir of inflammatory cells and send messages to the brain that lead to behavioral changes.

View attachment 36080
@aliml This is very interesting! I have had many of these symptoms and had mild pain in the spleen area. What are some things that help the spleen

Foods Beneficial For The Spleen
Organic lightly cooked vegetables, corn, celery, watercress, turnip, pumpkin, alfalfa sprouts, button mushrooms, radish, caper
Brown rice, barley, amaranth, rye, oats
Legumes, kidney beans, adzuki beans, lentils
Small amount of lean organic meat, poultry and fish, tuna
Small amount of whole fruits, lemon; Sesame seeds, pumpkin seeds, sunflower seeds
Seaweed, kelp
Black pepper, cinnamon bark, clove, dill, fennel, garlic, ginger, peppermint, rosemary, sage, turmeric, thyme, horseradish, cayenne, nutmeg
Green tea, jasmine tea, raspberry leaf tea, chai tea

Foods That Hurt The Spleen
Dairy, Wheat, Cold drinks, Fruit juice, Cold raw foods
Processed foods, Refined flour, pastry, pasta, breads
Refined sugar and sugar substitutes
Coffee, alcohol, Deep fried foods
Peanuts and peanut butter
Bananas, avocado

Tips to protect your Spleen - Mark Gutkin LAc | Acupuncture, Herbs, Nutrition | Acupuncture Stamford CT | Acupuncture Fairfield County CT

In Chinese Medicine digestion is a main function of the Earth Element and is represented by The Spleen. Most of you are familiar with the function of this energy circuit (not a physical organ) but for those who forgot, here is a list of the main characteristics: The Spleen Is Responsible For...

markgutkin.com

Thank you!

 

[tankasnowgod]

My daughter has been struggling with "dark cloud" episodes and intense anxiety for a few years now (she's 18). When she googles "Low Serotonin," (as was suggested by her therapist) the symptoms seem to be describing her perfectly:

What's the source that she is reading these symptoms off of?

In case you didn't notice, there is a massive campaign to make serotonin seem like "The Happy Hormone," even though it doesn't make you happy and it's not a hormone. I thought that by the time discovered Ray Peat, they realized his ideas goes against what's heavily promoted. So, it's no shock that, when going against what's heavily promoted, you can run into what is heavily promoted.

Does her therapist prescribe SSRIs? If so, it would make a lot of sense for that same therapist to suggest she in engage in behaviors (like "Google the symptoms of low serotonin) that would make her more likely to take the product that the therapist is pushing (and may get a kickback from).

- Chronic fatigue
- Disturbed sleep (she has nightmares every night)
- Loss of appetite, Carb cravings (but not for juice or fruit)
- Temperature changes
- Social withdrawal
- Sadness and crying
- Irritability
- Low self-confidence

Again, what is the source for this list? WebMD? Pfizer? A website called "ILoveSerotoninAndAmPushingSSRIsForProfit.biz?" Some random wordpress blogger? Twitter?

This list fits even better than the descriptions of "Low thyroid" or "Low Progesterone," though of course there is overlap. She reads that list and thinks, "Oh, I need an SSRI," and after all, half of her friends are on one.

Maybe that list was written to trigger that thought in people's heads. You do know that advertising takes all forms, right?

I wish I had more science/medical background! I need to know how to answer her. Could someone please explain why this list fits her so well, if the solution is not to "raise Serotonin"?

As I stated above, without a source for that list, it's impossible to know why it was written, but I would think the main reason would be to prop up the mainstream serotonin theory, which is that it is the "happy hormone," and so that companies like Pfizer can rake in billions from sales.

Here is a list of 70 studies that show a darker side of serotonin-

The Dark Side Of Serotonin Exposed By Haidut In 70 Studies

Below is the commentary of @haidut on 70 studies regarding serotonin. The links lead to the thread where haidut often provides some direct quotes from the study (and of course the links to the actual studies). I hope that with providing this as a whole it aids in learning in effective way about...

raypeatforum.com

Ray Peat on Serotonin (which I would think would be one of the first places someone on the RayPeatForum would look)-

Serotonin: Effects in disease, aging and inflammation

In the early 1950s, several people recognized that the symptoms produced by administering an excess of serotonin were similar to those experienced by people with intestinal tumors called argentaffinomas or carcinoid tumors, which are usually in the small intestine or appendix.

raypeat.com

Anthony Colpo's 3 part series on the dangers of SSRIs-

The Great SSRI Scam: How Taking Anti-Depressant Drugs Can Kill You, Part 1

Warning: This article contains strong language. If you don't like strong language, then please leave this page immediately. I haven’t written much about anti-depressant drugs over the years. The reason is simple: They were of little interest to me. Quite frankly, I found the idea of solving a...

anthonycolpo.com

The Great SSRI Scam: How Taking Anti-Depressant Drugs Can Kill You, Part 2

Warning: This article contains strong language. If you don't like strong language, then leave this page immediately. In Part 1, I shared the story of Adriano who, upon his doctor’s advice, began taking an antidepressant last year. Rather than help with his anxiety and depression, the SSRI...

anthonycolpo.com

The Great SSRI Scam: How Taking Anti-Depressant Drugs Can Kill You, Part 3

Before continuing on with this exposé of anti-depressants, I want to reiterate a plea I made in Part 1: Namely, if you are feeling suicidal, please confide in someone. I reiterate this plea because, since the last instalment in this series, there has been a tragic development. Two months ago...

anthonycolpo.com

The "Is Serotonin an Upper or a Downer" paper-

Is serotonin an upper or a downer? The evolution of the serotonergic system and its role in depression and the antidepressant response - PubMed

The role of serotonin in depression and antidepressant treatment remains unresolved despite decades of research. In this paper, we make three major claims. First, serotonin transmission is elevated in multiple depressive phenotypes, including melancholia, a subtype associated with sustained...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

And if all that is too much or too dense....... how about people talking their own horrid experiences with SSRIs on corporate news programs?


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lmv4Vy2Ye74


Even in that less than two minute clip, they talk about extreme anxiety, suicide, seizures and hospitalization. Before she takes any drug, she should get an official list of side effects, and read them, to see if an SSRI is worth the risk.

 

[richofden]

@aliml This is very interesting! I have had many of these symptoms and had mild pain in the spleen area. What are some things that help the spleen?

try splenic diseases and spleen rupture on rifeplayer.com