Urgent Wish List For Depression And Anxiety Meds For 20 Year Old

Discussion in 'Ask For Help or Advice' started by SQu, Oct 5, 2017.

  1. SQu

    SQu Member

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    My daughter (I asked advice re her veganism) just saw a therapist who sees many high performing students like her and says she urgently needs to see a psychiatrist for meds for depression and anxiety. I think this is true. I could do more if she was close by and if her mental state did not make compliance patchy with many peaty things I try and support her with (pregnenolone, theanine, magnesium at the moment, pared down from a longer list, and regular good meals etc). I suspect even when she takes these she needs more than I think I can get a script for in the case of pregnenolone (i.e. more than 200mg/day)
    So at this stage I am trying to at least get my wish list in for when she goes to the appointment. I'd like her to be able to suggest what might be more effective and less damaging prescription meds, and to know what to attempt to steer the doctor away from if necessary, like SSRIs.
    I can't really add anything complex or too way off linear medical thinking. I.e. MB, DMSO, LSD derivatives unless familiar in the medical mainstream.
    She self medicates on cigarettes, weed (with my knowledge but not my blessing), this the therapist advised her to taper down and off. She has found benefit in meditation, and occasional careful low dose 'magic mushroom' ie golden teacher (again, I am glad she informs me, I don't condone, I don't judge, I am hesitant and concerned, I know she is not partying on them but attempting to help herself). If she cuts down I see she turns to alcohol instead, she really is in need of relief. I personally find the things I give her so powerful for me but for her, seems they are just not enough. (assuming she takes them of course. she's far away. i may go there myself if necessary, if i can help.)

    If anyone can contribute good/bad meds I'd be very grateful. I'd also like her to stop the vegan thing if she isn't doing it well enough (and she probably isn't able to at the moment) but she's very passionate about it ...

    So far: main thing, no SSRIs;

    maybe a MAO-B inhibitor (brand or generic names??)
    reserpine? (brand names?)
    deprenyl (selegiline)?
    isoniazid?

    I'll add as I continue to search. Anyone been there?
     
  2. nasibi

    nasibi Member

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    Do NOT. I repeat do NOT give your daughter any anti depressant drugs.
     
  3. OP
    SQu

    SQu Member

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    Thanks for replying.
    I don't want to. I'm frankly terrified of anti-depressants. But I don't know what else to do short of bringing her home and even then ... she was home and still suffering though perhaps not as badly, or just hiding it better, before.
    I really don't want to.
     
  4. raypeatclips

    raypeatclips Member

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    I have been in a place where many people were pushing me towards taking pharmaceuticals for anxiety/depression but I never took them, and I am very glad I refused them all.

    I am struggling to find the email now, but when I spoke to Peat he suggested when people eat nutritious foods, such as orange juice, eggs, liver and oysters, people can start to feel better. He also mentioned getting vitamin D levels up to adequate levels and suggested eating too much meat could be contributing to my anxiety symptoms. (Though those parts could just be specific to me)

    Coffee could help depression (as long as its tolerated, and doesn't cause anxiety) Raw carrot daily is always useful.

    Exercise is very understated, and something that I initially rubbished myself at first. Daily walks for an hour just around my area, taking different routes every day, helped me immensely. The lack of exercise also contributed to worse sleep, and poor sleep itself can cause a whole range of issues. Do what you can to ensure a good nights sleep. I felt many times that "if only I could get a good nights sleep, everything will sort itself."

    Meditation can be useful, I quite like the "Headspace" phone app that you can get on the android phone store. At my worst I used it daily, but I have found the better I get, the more I forget to use it. I had never done any meditation prior to this though, so perhaps your daughter would not find it useful if she is experienced.

    Weed can cause many issues relating to anxiety and depression, and could be the whole cause of all of the negative symptoms, in my opinion. I am not sure your relationship with your daughter but if my parents told me to stop doing something, I would have to have already thought myself that it was a negative, before considering stopping. Especially with the current trend of weed become more accepted, I think more people will think weed is entirely safe, but I know many people with ongoing issues similar to this solely caused by weed. (Perhaps there was some underlying issue exacerbated by weed etc, but that is a different discussion)

    She needs to do something she enjoys, a hobby. I stopped doing the things I enjoyed, to try "focus" on getting my health back. This was entirely counterproductive, and the things I enjoy doing bring about better health.

    In my opinion, there is only so much you can do to help your daughter. You cannot force her to take anything and in the end she can only help herself. My parents pushed me in various ways to "help" me, but in the end, it made things worse.

    I don't think this was the post you were hoping for, but I feel pharmaceuticals are just a "band aid" and at best, don't solve the underlying issue, at worst, put people in a worse state than they were in before.
     
  5. nasibi

    nasibi Member

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    I would advice highly against SSRI, SNRI and even tetracyclic anti depressants like Mirtazapine and Trazodone.

    You should maybe get a full panel blood hormonal test and see if everything is ok and go from there.

    I do prefer the dopaminergic drugs like Wellbutrin. Modafinil works really good for depression as well. How about trying some Metergoline after you get the blood test done?
     
  6. alywest

    alywest Member

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    Have you researched this forum for the use of B vitamins in the treatment of depression? It's nearly impossible to overdose on B vitamins, or perhaps actually impossible, as they are water soluble and the body excretes whatever it doesn't need. Look at high dose thiamine (B1), lots of niacinamide, biotin, etc. Careful with b12 and folate. I know it's expensive but I vouch for idealab's energin. 20 drops 3 x a day. That's the basic dose and then maybe supplement with some more individual B's like thiamine as that seems to be a big one in the world of mental illness. See this thread: High Lactate May Be The Cause Of Major Psychiatric Disorders I want to clarify that I'm not suggesting your daughter has a "major psychiatric disorder." Depression seems all too common these days!

    I noticed that you also tried pregnenalone, and I would suggest progesterone instead since she's a female (obviously!) Pregnenalone does almost nothing for me, at least on the surface, but progesterone is much stronger. I would take the proper channels, though, and have her levels tested and such because progesterone is a powerful thing. It can make things a bit worse for a bit, so I would definitely make sure you're using it correctly.

    Last but not least, take a deep breath, know you're doing great! She is so so so lucky to have a mom (or dad) like you who cares and would do anything, which you clearly would. I hope you find all the answers you need, but I would certainly keep working on nutrition over using antidepressants.
     
  7. Meatbag

    Meatbag Member

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    Wellbutrin is NOT a dopaminergic drug; I know every doctor says this but it isn't true. It's primary effect is on the Noradrenaline mediated by its metabolites which have a MUCH longer halflife;

    "
    Pharmacodynamics
    Based on preclinical research with animal and human proteins, bupropion has been characterized as a weak norepinephrine-dopamine reuptake inhibitor (NDRI).[13] It has also been found to act as a releasing agent of dopamine and norepinephrine (NDRA), similarly to other cathinones.[15][75][76] However, when ingested orally by humans, bupropion is extensively converted in the body into several active metabolites with differing activities and influences on the effects of the drug during first-pass metabolism.[13][15] These metabolites are present in much higher concentrations in the body compared to bupropion itself.[13][15][77] The most important example is the major metabolite of bupropion, hydroxybupropion, a selective norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor (and likely releasing agent) and nicotinic acetylcholine receptor (nAChR) antagonist that lacks significant dopaminergic actions, and which, with oral bupropion treatment, can reach area under the curve (AUC) plasma concentrations that are as much as 16–20 times greater than those of bupropion itself.[13] Hence, the effects of bupropion cannot be understood unless its metabolism is also considered.[13][15][78]" - Wikipedia

    As someone who took this, and several other drugs, I would say Buprobion (aka Wellbutrin) freaking sucks. It screwed me, and several people I've known who have taken it, up. Noradrenaline is an acute signaler and not something that should have its gas peddle chronically pressed. I remember when my doctor explained it to me when I was first prescribed it so many years ago; "Your energy is down so we gotta that bad boy up! That's how this works, we're telling your body to rev up all its engines!!!!!" . You might was well just inject adrenaline every other hour if you think this drug is a good idea.

    More info on Noradrenaline on the forum;
    "The mechanism is through activation of aromatase. Note the double hit - i.e. noradrenalin both increased the synthesis of estrogen through aromatase AND also decreased DHT synthesis through 5-AR."Noradrenaline (and Likely Adrenalin) Increases Estrogen

    "The article tries to spin it in a positive light - i.e. that releasing adrenaline in the brain is beneficial. However we care about the direct message itself - adrenaline/noradrenaline are stress hormones and lactic acid triggers their release in the brain. This is likely harmful if experienced chronically."
    Lactic Acid (lactate) Triggers Stress Response In The Brain
     
  8. michael94

    michael94 Member

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    I took wellbutrin maybe 3 or 4 years ago. It definitely makes you not depressed... but I felt like a very productive robot on it. And there were some weird emotional sides, like I was becoming out of touch with the full range of human emotions.

     
  9. lampofred

    lampofred Member

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    Maybe try asking her to take a zinc supplement. High copper/low zinc makes people want to go vegan and going vegan further decreases zinc and increases copper in a vicious circle. Low zinc/high copper is strongly implicated in many mental issues.
     
  10. Meatbag

    Meatbag Member

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    Yeah if your strong it turns you into a robot. If, or when, you are weak it causes manic feelings. That's how these stress signals work. Everyone I worked with while I was taking it called me a robot, destroyed any personality I had left. Same thing in other people I knew.
     
  11. Meatbag

    Meatbag Member

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    Have you seen these threads on the forum?;

    "I posted a few studies on the powerful mood boosting effects of allopregnanolone in relation to its precursor 5a-DHP. The precursor 5a-DHP converts into allopregnanolone with almost 100% efficiency as it is the the only pathway through which it can be metabolized downstream.
    All successful antidepressants of the SSRI class are capable of stimulating allopregnanolon synthesis in the brain. SSRI drugs devoid of this capability are ineffective as antidepressants and a few of them have already been withdrawn ."-Haidut: Low-dose Allopregnanolone Induces Relief From Depression In Just 24 Hours

    All of these threads are pretty helpful; depression | Ray Peat Forum
    ----


    It might be good for her to keep seeing a practitioner or someone to talk to. Maybe just Psychologist or Alternative Health practitioner, Acupuncturist, TCM doctor. Someone who isn't gonna try to pump her full of pharma meds like all these professional pill vending machines.
     
  12. marsaday

    marsaday Member

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    I assume she is low in energy, tired etc. Have you look into thyroid blood tests ? Get these done because very often the thyroid is the reason. Poor quality sleep won't help as well. We make our hormones when we sleep, especially thyroid and cortisol. So if she is skipping sleeping or sleeping at irregular times her thyroid and cortisol production will be off balance.

    I was told i had depression for 16 yrs and i never got better using antiD's. Eventually i trialled some thyroid meds and i got better. The anti d''s are a huge industry and a big con in my book. They work namely by raising cortisol. This is probably what your daughter is missing and thyroid meds taken at bedtime or middle of the night will atrificially boost cortisol production. It is called the CT3M method (the circadian T3 method).

    You would need some blood tests first to see how the thyroid is doing though, Often docs will say all is ok, but the results are far from ok.
     
  13. nasibi

    nasibi Member

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    With all due respect, messing around with hormones can have very negative consequences.
     
  14. CLASH

    CLASH Member

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    I wouldn't use any benzo's, SSRI or any pharmaceutical drugs that effects neurotransmitter pathways. There are entire forums dedicated to people who have used these drugs and are suffering for it (look up benzo buddies, post finasteride syndrome, post SSRI syndrome). If the post finasterid syndrome thread was still up you would see an example of the effects. These medications effect pathways and upregulate and downregulate "receptors" and cellular function in ways that we don't know.
    I have worked in the psych wards in Miami and have seen pateints who spend their entire lives on these medications, completely ruined because they were diagnosed with "depression", "anxiety" or schizophrenia and placed in medical care. This led to the utilization of drugs that altered pathways, made their diseases worse in some cases, made them dependent and require other drugs for the side effects.
    One man was in his 20s, diagnosed with schizophrenia when he went off to college and was isolated (he didnt like to party in college, he was considered "nerdy" so he spent semesters living alone and eventually developed depression and then schizophrenia), put on a whole host of drugs and eventually wound up in an assissted living facility. I met him at age 56, he had spent his whole life in an ALF or at home with his family (his father disowned him eventually). When I talked to him, all he wanted was a female companion and a normal life, but he couldnt get off drugs. He was in the hospital because he tried to kill himself. The reason he stuck out so much was because he cried when I started asking him questions about his life and told me that no psychiatrist or psychologist had asked him about any of his personal situations, they only used a standardized questionairre to determine his symptoms and prescribe a drug (in nursing school we are taught the same, we have all these inventories we have to use to categorize peoples sicknesses. Its really a fraud system based around the implementation, sale and dependence on pharmaceuticals.)

    In another case my friend from childhood began using weed, mushrooms and other hallucinogenics. He abused them (he woud go camping and get high and trip on shrooms every weekend). He also went vegetarian because he was "spiritual" now, which included 3 raw salads a day, two eggs and some black coffee. He lost about 20lbs, went into depression. I tried to help him he wouldnt listen. He went to the campus nurse practitioner, specializing in psychiatry (interestingly this nurse practitioner was the head of the nursing fraternity that I was VP of for a little while, he was an idiot in terms of physiology, he only knew how to match drugs with symptoms). The practitioner put him on an SSRI. He got worse. They then diagnosed him as bipolar, put him on a different SSRI, lithium (higher doses) and other drugs. He dropped out of school and checked into an in patient pscychiatric facility for 4 months. He only recovered when they put him on a serotonin antagonist (haha +1 for peat). The only problem was the drug also effected his dopamine pathway so he had no motivation or enjoyment so they gave him a script for a a dopamine agonist. The dopamine agonist made him manic to some extent so he has to smoke pot to calm down. But the pot ***** up his sleep so he needs coffee to wake up. So no hes on all these drugs, gained 40lbs of body fat, eats less then 1000kcal a day and dropped out of school.

    My point isnt to scare you, but to emeplify the fact that:
    1) the diagnosis are meaningless to a large extent and are created and designed with drugs in mind. Depression/ anxiety are transient states of life that are dependent on physiology, theres a reason they exist. Its not a disease per say that you contract and need to be cured of. (These are my opinions haha)
    2) we dont know how these drugs work truelly, thier side effects and thier interactions. You'll see here on the forum that pharma reports are largely inaccurate and everything is tested in a reductionist way that doesnt address the organism as a whole.
    3) your doctor/ therapist most likely knows absolutely jack ***t about anything remotely useful to your health (when I was in the ICU, vit c therapy for burn patients was the new and exciting therapy, I laughed when they told me this. The doctor explained that "its an antioxidant so it helps with healing and the immune system").
    4) most health problems are lifestyle related and can be fixed with lifestyle. Drugs only make things worse, in more cases then not.

    With all this in mind, I would say to address ur daughters lifestyle.. I know its not easy, but its really the only way. The veganism, drinking, pot etc. Need to go. The mental symptoms are most likely gut related and metabolism related. Im not a father, but I know what worked with me when i was younger and even now (i'm 22) was my dad being blatant, honesy and frank with me about things even if I got angry with him. Our relationship is stronger and I eventually made the right desicions. Lead the horse to water and if she doesnt decide to drink, shes on her own... you can only be thirsty and dehydrated for so long.
     
  15. Meatbag

    Meatbag Member

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    I'm not sure what your getting at. Where did I say to "mess around" with pregnenolone? OP said a doctor would prescribe it and I recommended to maybe see a doctor who isn't pushing SSRI's and the like. You know Pregnenolone is a lot different than hormones likes testosterone and estrogen right? If you wanna discuss pregnolone we should probably take it to another thread.
     
  16. denise

    denise Member

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    +1 on the metergoline idea. Haidut posted elsewhere about a study that showed even a 1x week dose was helpful, so that might help with the compliance issue. Also you can just get it from IdeaLabs if the doc doesn't like the idea.

    Of course, any substance is only a temporary Band-Aid. Getting to the bottom of the issue (which may be nutritional or hormonal but is just as likely to be trauma related) is the only real fix. If you think trauma may be part of the issue (and I don't just mean major trauma like being attacked but even "little" stuff that nevertheless gets stuck in our system), I highly recommend this video series.

    One more thing--and this is just from my own experience, so take it for what it's worth--I would suggest not urging her to quit smoking while she's in this state. Although there's a lot of purely psychological stuff going on with smoking, there definitely is a physical component, and if she isn't feeding herself well or she's hypothyroid or estrogen dominant, etc., the cigarettes may be one of the main things that are keeping her on her feet. I had a major crash when I quit because I didn't realize just how much smoking was helping me at the time. It took many (very difficult) months to recover.
     
  17. Meatbag

    Meatbag Member

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    Also maybe try talking about vegetarianism or just getting more protein. I don't like eating animal friends either but eating eggs, honey, and milk are the only things that don't actually kill a living thing when we eat it :) Also has she tried vitamin d? Some people are very susceptible to depression if they aren't getting enough. Peat likens it as akin to thyroid
     
  18. michael94

    michael94 Member

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    My parents tricked me into getting locked in a psych ward shortly after I decided I didn't need them and was going to live on the streets ( catcher in the rye anyone? ). The story you posted is so sad and I see exactly how it could happen. I was only in there for 3 days but it was horrible and don't wish it upon anyone...The doctor said that if I don't take "my meds" so I can "get better" that I was going to be there forever. Fortunately I refused. I would've cried to all of my childhood friends for mercy without any anxiety whatsoever that's how terrible the feeling was.
     
  19. nasibi

    nasibi Member

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    But you suggested taking exog 5a-DHP, which is not Pregnanolone.
     
  20. OP
    SQu

    SQu Member

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    Thank you. Our relationship is close. I prefer for her to find these things out for herself as it's much more powerful in my experience. She is already thinking along these lines. She's honest with herself and a greater seeker of truth. A hobby is a great idea and the obvious one is a pet. I'm going to see about that one. It's great to have this feedback, thank you.
    P.S. Thank you for the clips, very useful

    She did one within the year, all fine, TSH not out of range. No surprises there, but still I am sure she's hypo, but I'll never get a doctor to prescribe if it's in range and I won't get anything ordered online past customs here.

    That's great thank you, I know she's wanting dopaminergic effects, like me. Pregnenolone+theanine+magnesium totally works for me, but not enough in her case.

    Thanks for those suggestions, I will follow up. I appreciate the help.
     
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