Sublingual Niacin with Tocovit (15 minutes) for Hallucinations

[lionsmane311]

I notice if I take niacin sublingually for 15 minutes I don't get the flush. But when I swallow it I do get the flush in 15 minutes. Does that mean no niacin is being absorbed through the gums or do you think it's a small amount that is and it's not enough to cause the flush?

The reason for it is that high dose niacin makes me vomit and higher doses are needed to get the affect of reduced hallucinations. Maybe low doses sublingually gets much more into the brain.

The goal is to get as much as possible into the brain to lower hallucinations in my case. Hoping someone has an idea or suggestion.

Just wanted to say this time around the 500mg lowered my hallucinations.

@haidut @Hans

 

[webbt]

I've experienced auditory hallucinations. Mine was from extreme sleep deprivation insomnia. It is hellish.

What have you tried for reducing the nausea?

Apparently niacin can reduce methyl groups in the body. This can illicit nausea. Something like choline or preferably betaine (TMG)(careful of the acidity of you buy the HCL kind) or creatine to spare methyl groups, potentially reducing nausea.

Some herbs. Ginger is the best known and studied herb for reducing nausea vomiting. Other are peppermint and chamomile. Maybe b6. If you try high dose activated b6 then also take b12 to potentially reduce b6 side effects.

Dr. Abram Holder's book mentions people taking up to 50 grams daily. So at least in some circumstances the body can tolerate quite a bit. I've personally taken 35 grams of niacin in one go. You may have to try that. Powdered niacin scooped into edible film pouches ("blate papes") is how I took mine. With sufficient water to balance acidity.

There is a product called picamilon. It is a nootropic. A gaba molecule bound to a niacin molecule. Because of this structure there is enhanced absorption fat solubility potentially better for crossing blood brain barrier. I've personally taken high doses of this too.

 

[lionsmane311]

I've experienced auditory hallucinations. Mine was from extreme sleep deprivation insomnia. It is hellish.

What have you tried for reducing the nausea?

Apparently niacin can reduce methyl groups in the body. This can illicit nausea. Something like choline or preferably betaine (TMG)(careful of the acidity of you buy the HCL kind) or creatine to spare methyl groups, potentially reducing nausea.

Some herbs. Ginger is the best known and studied herb for reducing nausea vomiting. Other are peppermint and chamomile. Maybe b6. If you try high dose activated b6 then also take b12 to potentially reduce b6 side effects.

Dr. Abram Holder's book mentions people taking up to 50 grams daily. So at least in some circumstances the body can tolerate quite a bit. I've personally taken 35 grams of niacin in one go. You may have to try that. Powdered niacin scooped into edible film pouches ("blate papes") is how I took mine. With sufficient water to balance acidity.

There is a product called picamilon. It is a nootropic. A gaba molecule bound to a niacin molecule. Because of this structure there is enhanced absorption fat solubility potentially better for crossing blood brain barrier. I've personally taken high doses of this too.

Thank you so much. I have a lot of questions. Do you still have hallucinations? How long did they last? Were they complex sentences or noises?

How the hell did you not get nauseous or throw up on 35 grams? How long did it take to build up to that?

I got sick after 2.5 grams of sustained release niacin. Ginger didn't help unfortunately. Did you try some of the things you mentioned? Like choline or betaine? I look forward to trying these to see if it helps. Thanks again

I did a blood test and my B3 levels were high. That might have something to do with why I threw up. Probably not.

Which niacin brand did you use? Currently using Nowfoods and it's not sustained release.

Lastly was it the niacin that fixed your hallucinations or do you think it went away on its own?

You should post on some schizophrenia forums. A lot of people could use the hope from your story. Tough situation for most. I will be posting once I get closer to solving the hallucinations. Sorry for all the questions but I'm curious and hoping this will clarify things for other users who need it.

 

[webbt]

Thank you so much. I have a lot of questions. Do you still have hallucinations? How long did they last? Were they complex sentences or noises?

How the hell did you not get nauseous or throw up on 35 grams? How long did it take to build up to that?

I got sick after 2.5 grams of sustained release niacin. Ginger didn't help unfortunately. Did you try some of the things you mentioned? Like choline or betaine? I look forward to trying these to see if it helps. Thanks again

I did a blood test and my B3 levels were high. That might have something to do with why I threw up. Probably not.

Which niacin brand did you use? Currently using Nowfoods and it's not sustained release.

Lastly was it the niacin that fixed your hallucinations or do you think it went away on its own?

You should post on some schizophrenia forums. A lot of people could use the hope from your story. Tough situation for most. I will be posting once I get closer to solving the hallucinations. Sorry for all the questions but I'm curious and hoping this will clarify things for other users who need it.

I have severe depression and insomnia, problems that run in my family, not schizophrenia. My insomnia lead to hallucinations and a seizure. Hallucinations for two or three days. It was random words I was hearing in my head by a neutral voice. The voice wasn't male or female. There were no emotions associated with the voice. Sometimes it would several words or phrases every second, just bombarding me. Naturally resolved.

I'm not very sensitive to supplements or foods. My body was used to several grams of niacin a day sometimes. Before I went to 35 grams, I made sure I could handle 10 grams and 20 grams. I also took protective measures. vitamin C, desiccated beef liver, sulbutiamine, rosemary, multivitamin, and some TMG. These are for an antitoxic effect. I also measured my liver enzymes a day or two after the 20 gram dose.

The brand was probably Bulk Supplements powder.


-----
Do you flush from niacin? A lack of flush is an indicator of a subset of schizophrenics, who are likely niacin deficient.

Are you iron deficient? (serum ferritin NOT serum iron)

Iron and niacin appear to go together


----
Lastly, I want to mention, although it isn't Peaty, that there may be a benefit to be had from n-acetylcysteine or similar compounds.
:

Fatigued? Try L-Cystine (Not Cysteine)

L-Cystine for Chronic Fatigue, Lack of Motivation, Depression Most have heard of n-acetylcysteine (NAC). It is an L-cysteine precursor. There is a lesser-known compound that may be able to give similar benefits. L-cystine. This is two cysteine molecules bound together, likely offering...

raypeatforum.com

In this thread I mention how an IV infusion of n-acetylcysteine brought me out of my mental fatigue / depression. It only lasted a few hours, but it was one of the best things I've experienced. It seems that scientists are investigating it for depression and schizophrenia.

L-cystine (not cysteine) oral supplement has side effects but is for sure helping me. (IMPORTANT protective factors are mentioned in the thread. IMPORTANT not to damage your liver)


-----
IV concerns

Spoiler

IVs are a powerful tool, but there are some downsides to be aware of in order to evaluate risk vs benefit.

- heavy metal impurities, even small amounts of aluminum for example, can cause damage. low-level contamination is seemingly unavoidable.
- particulate contamination. microscopic particles have been shown to have a measurable negative effect. these are unavoidably present in IV preparations. although not perfect, an in-line filter can mitigate the larger particles.
- plasticizer chemicals / hormone disruptors. from the plastic IV bags.
- infection.

Potential solutions
Metal chelators present in the solution
Subcutaneous injection and even infusion protects the body from particulates. (verified in studies)
Use glass and hard plastics and platinum-cured silicone materials.
Be prepared with sepsis-treatment plan in case of infection.
Take protective factors such as vitamin C and sulbutiamine and rosemary/herbs.

-----
niacin mini-guide

Spoiler

Niacin causes uncomfortable flushing that ceases upon continual use, typically.
It is best taken with each meal because it disrupts glucose tolerance otherwise (most applicable to carb-containing meals) (from Chris Masterjohn YouTube channel)
A gram per meal or less~~~~~~~~~sufficient
Chance for disruption in circadian rhythm --mediated by NAD clock effects.
Chance for gastrointestinal distress.

 

[lionsmane311]

I have severe depression and insomnia, problems that run in my family, not schizophrenia. My insomnia lead to hallucinations and a seizure. Hallucinations for two or three days. It was random words I was hearing in my head by a neutral voice. The voice wasn't male or female. There were no emotions associated with the voice. Sometimes it would several words or phrases every second, just bombarding me. Naturally resolved.

Sorry to hear that. Have you tried things that raise dopamine and lower serotonin? I've found herbs being more effective than products like metergoline and lisuride. I still use them but it's different. You should look at Han's article about 8 uncommon ways to lower prolactin. Try longdan, zhuang yang, fructus, and white peony. These remove brain fog and lift my spirits up. I struggled with depression and used to have insomnia. Have you tried chamomile and other gaba boosting herbs for sleep?

I just found out today that I have no genetic factors associated with schizophrenia or auditory and visual hallucinations. It tested both of those and nothing came up. It's purely environmental for me.

Interestingly, our hallucinations are very different. Mine developed significantly and this led to delusions. Mine form full sentences and make accurate comments about the world around me. They react to smells, vision, hearing, and sensations. It's coordinated to where if I smell something they say something smells and then I visually see them pinching their noses to not smell anything. Very sad about how deeply connected it is. It's really tough. Another one is they want me to have sexual experiences so they can do their own thing sexually and make comments. I have to overcome this stuff somehow but it's very difficult. I'm hoping I can make progress and always remember it's not real no matter how convincing it might be.

I'm not very sensitive to supplements or foods. My body was used to several grams of niacin a day sometimes. Before I went to 35 grams, I made sure I could handle 10 grams and 20 grams. I also took protective measures. vitamin C, desiccated beef liver, sulbutiamine, rosemary, multivitamin, and some TMG. These are for an antitoxic effect. I also measured my liver enzymes a day or two after the 20 gram dose.

The brand was probably Bulk Supplements powder.

Thanks for this. Will buy from that brand later. Charlie used it as well. I'm not very sensitive either which made the niacin side effect surprising

-----
Do you flush from niacin? A lack of flush is an indicator of a subset of schizophrenics, who are likely niacin deficient.

Are you iron deficient? (serum ferritin NOT serum iron)

Iron and niacin appear to go together

I usually flush. Few times I don't. A gram always makes me flush but the 500mg varies. I'm aware of this and was hoping I wouldn't flush meaning I'd respond better with higher doses.

----
Lastly, I want to mention, although it isn't Peaty, that there may be a benefit to be had from n-acetylcysteine or similar compounds.
:

Fatigued? Try L-Cystine (Not Cysteine)

L-Cystine for Chronic Fatigue, Lack of Motivation, Depression Most have heard of n-acetylcysteine (NAC). It is an L-cysteine precursor. There is a lesser-known compound that may be able to give similar benefits. L-cystine. This is two cysteine molecules bound together, likely offering...

raypeatforum.com

In this thread I mention how an IV infusion of n-acetylcysteine brought me out of my mental fatigue / depression. It only lasted a few hours, but it was one of the best things I've experienced. It seems that scientists are investigating it for depression and schizophrenia.

L-cystine (not cysteine) oral supplement has side effects but is for sure helping me. (IMPORTANT protective factors are mentioned in the thread. IMPORTANT not to damage your liver)

I use NAC. It's very helpful. I'll look into L-cystine

-----
IV concerns

Spoiler

IVs are a powerful tool, but there are some downsides to be aware of in order to evaluate risk vs benefit.

- heavy metal impurities, even small amounts of aluminum for example, can cause damage. low-level contamination is seemingly unavoidable.
- particulate contamination. microscopic particles have been shown to have a measurable negative effect. these are unavoidably present in IV preparations. although not perfect, an in-line filter can mitigate the larger particles.
- plasticizer chemicals / hormone disruptors. from the plastic IV bags.
- infection.

Potential solutions
Metal chelators present in the solution
Subcutaneous injection and even infusion protects the body from particulates. (verified in studies)
Use glass and hard plastics and platinum-cured silicone materials.
Be prepared with sepsis-treatment plan in case of infection.
Take protective factors such as vitamin C and sulbutiamine and rosemary/herbs.

-----
niacin mini-guide

Spoiler

Niacin causes uncomfortable flushing that ceases upon continual use, typically.
It is best taken with each meal because it disrupts glucose tolerance otherwise (most applicable to carb-containing meals) (from Chris Masterjohn YouTube channel)
A gram per meal or less~~~~~~~~~sufficient
Chance for disruption in circadian rhythm --mediated by NAD clock effects.
Chance for gastrointestinal distress.

Thanks for your help. This will get me back to trying higher dose niacin and watching for any symptoms.

 

[webbt]

Sorry to hear that. Have you tried things that raise dopamine and lower serotonin? I've found herbs being more effective than products like metergoline and lisuride. I still use them but it's different. You should look at Han's article about 8 uncommon ways to lower prolactin. Try longdan, zhuang yang, fructus, and white peony. These remove brain fog and lift my spirits up. I struggled with depression and used to have insomnia. Have you tried chamomile and other gaba boosting herbs for sleep?

I've tried bromantane and mucuna pruriens (L-dopa). Nothing. Soon I'll try cyproheptadine. My lab work showed prolactin was good but trying to approach my problem by that angle is something I'll look at. I have tried chamomile and others like valerian, passionflower, kava kava, and other things that are meant to help relaxation. It doesn't do anything strangely. Well, kava kava at a high dose made me feel a bit weird that's all.

I use NAC. It's very helpful. I'll look into L-cystine

Try plain reduced glutathione powder. It is something I've just discovered to have a great effect. Still figuring out how to use it best because for me at least taking it consistently has less and less effect. I'm thinking the combo of reduced GSH and cystine as part of a supplement routine may be ideal because they balance each other out (reducer vs oxidizer). Weird that s-acetyl glutathione, NAC, and NACET do nothing for me even with massive dosing.

Thanks for your help. This will get me back to trying higher dose niacin and watching for any symptoms.

Haidut on NAD/NADH ratio improved by INOSINE supplement.

Inosine Increases NAD/NADH Ratio And Reduces Systemic Inflammation

Yet another great study on inosine. It shows that a HED of just 8mg/kg administered just twice daily increased the NAD/NADH ratio by a whopping factor of 15 (see attached screenshot). While inosine itself is neither a precursor to NAD (like niacinamide) nor is it an oxidizing agent, I think its...

raypeatforum.com

I've heard him say it can potentially have acute effect but that best results are from consistently taking it for a month or two. It is related to adenosine and ATP and raises ATP. Raises uric acid so be careful combining with uridine and fructose and caffeine which also raise that.


Also I'm assuming you've seen this info

Mechanisms For Hyperbaric Oxygen Therapy?

Peat has recommended Hyperbaric oxygen therapy. I've heard it said that it "could" increase co2 in the tissues, but how so - any sources?

raypeatforum.com

it mentions:

"Therapies that have been successful in treating “schizophrenia” include penicillin, sleep therapy, hyperbaric oxygen, carbon dioxide therapy, thyroid, acetazolamide, lithium and vitamins."
Thyroid, insomnia, and the insanities: Commonalities in disease

It isn't quite affordable. It can also be unsafe. I've heard of safer forms such as being in the chamber while being fed the high concentration oxygen through a mask. This compared to the chamber being full of it which would be more of an explosive hazard I think.