Seriously Confused About CO2 After Reading Gbolduev's Thread

[paymanz]

breathing exercise is not only lowering its speed. But also you got to relax you lower parts of your bely to let your lungs expand.

With that you use your whole lungs capacity.

When I stressed my lower belly is tense , doesn't let my lungs to expand in lower parts.breaths are shallow and breathing rate is faster.

 

[tara]

One thing no one mentions is that ray actually has spoken about benefit of a proper type of workout and physical activity.

And Buteyko definitely considered regular physical work or exercise important.

 

[Aleksandr]

My science IQ is woeful compared to the posts here, but this is a topic that interests me.

In one of Rahkimov's books (the Buteyko guy) he cites the example of Tibetan monks who can generate so much heat they can sit bare-chested out in the ice and snow with no ill effects. They can do that by breathing less, not more. They have mastered the ability to control their breathing by establishing contact with the parasympathetic system.

They didn't acquire that ability by over-breathing, over-exercise or by bench pressing 300 lbs.

They acquired that ability by learning how to be still. Less is more.

I think wim hof breathing is based on their breathing; hyperventilating thus blowing out co2 and making more co2 in the cell (increasing metabolism, increasing stress response) as gbolduev says, good for slow oxidizers cos it is the opposite of their normal state

 

[Aleksandr]

And Buteyko definitely considered regular physical work or exercise important.

That is, exercise while nose breathing only. Im not sure what the net effect is, but id assume nose breathing retains more co2 than mouth breathing while exercising

 

[Manwe]

I think wim hof breathing is based on their breathing; hyperventilating thus blowing out co2 and making more co2 in the cell (increasing metabolism, increasing stress response) as gbolduev says, good for slow oxidizers cos it is the opposite of their normal state

Hyperventilating and blowing out your CO2 will not cause your cells to make more CO2 and increase your metabolism. You will get a quick metabolic flash, involving adrenaline but the increased lactate production, vasoconstriction, and alkalosis will seriously compromise your ability to use oxygen, if hyperventilation and hypocapnia become chronic

 

[Aleksandr]

Hyperventilating and blowing out your CO2 will not cause your cells to make more CO2 and increase your metabolism. You will get a quick metabolic flash, involving adrenaline but the increased lactate production, vasoconstriction, and alkalosis will seriously compromise your ability to use oxygen, if hyperventilation and hypocapnia become chronic

But the hyperventilation won't become chronic, you'd be manually forcing it for a short time

 

[Regina]

fwiw, I did some misogi-no-kokyu-ho breathing this afternoon (to counter my tendency to hypoventilate). I was able to train aikido tonight. I got through an hour class without a hitch.
Phew. Knocking wood.
Anti-serotonin strategies and remembering to do this kind of breathwork may get me back as a regular on the mat.

 

[DaveFoster]

Carboxy therapy causes you to hyperventilate , do you get this or not? You put CO2 pressure in , body thinks wow too much CO2, and turns on methylation like crazy.Makes you adrenaline sensitive then you stop CO2 therapy , but body is still upregulated to get rid of it.. So if you give CO2 you will have little CO2 in the body. I hope you get this

This is why it helps. but if you eat sugar you produce your own CO2 too much and retain it and get old

Huge difference about giving CO2 and producing CO2. I think you don't get that the only way to fix something in the body is overload it with something over a short time and then watch it snap back to the different direction and stay they for a while

This is what carboxy therapy is all about. You overload with CO2 for a very short time, you activate sympathetic nervous system and then you take away this overload and boom you end up with very low venous CO2. Since 1) body turned off your thyroid by lowering potassium 2) body increased ventilaton like crazy to oppose this CO2.



But for Ray Peat being fast oxidizer this therapy is evil. Since he needs the opposite. This is why he got so old only in 5 years after he started to preach this kind of stuff

Carboxy therapy improves circulation and oxygenation, do you understand it or not?

Apparently you just evaluate everything in one dimension.

You think excess co2 make your lung go panic and hyperventilate and that is all you say.

I have to write 100 lines for you and I'm sure you won't understand.

How can cominucate with you while you deny simple /universally accepted stuff like glycogen and carb.

You think nutrition is bro science.

In the short-term, rebreathing carbon dioxide makes one hyperventilate, but after a few weeks of adaptation to the higher CO2 level, CO2 exposure tends to slow breathing, both immediately after exposure and for a few hours beyond cessation.

 

[paymanz]

Carboxy therapy causes you to hyperventilate , do you get this or not? You put CO2 pressure in , body thinks wow too much CO2, and turns on methylation like crazy.Makes you adrenaline sensitive then you stop CO2 therapy , but body is still upregulated to get rid of it.. So if you give CO2 you will have little CO2 in the body. I hope you get this

This is why it helps. but if you eat sugar you produce your own CO2 too much and retain it and get old

Huge difference about giving CO2 and producing CO2. I think you don't get that the only way to fix something in the body is overload it with something over a short time and then watch it snap back to the different direction and stay they for a while

This is what carboxy therapy is all about. You overload with CO2 for a very short time, you activate sympathetic nervous system and then you take away this overload and boom you end up with very low venous CO2. Since 1) body turned off your thyroid by lowering potassium 2) body increased ventilaton like crazy to oppose this CO2.



But for Ray Peat being fast oxidizer this therapy is evil. Since he needs the opposite. This is why he got so old only in 5 years after he started to preach this kind of stuff

BTW with carboxy therapy I mostly meant locally applied co2 therapy. They inject co2 into their tissues.

 

[Dante]

BTW with carboxy therapy I mostly meant locally applied co2 therapy. They inject co2 into their tissues.

https://www.researchgate.net/public...us_Emphysema_After_Carbon_Dioxide_Mesotherapy

 

[Xisca]

I try to explain more of sth important... I take the quotes as examples, not personaly, to show where the points are.

breathing exercise is not only lowering its speed. But also you got to relax you lower parts of your bely to let your lungs expand.

The problem is you can force the relax, and it is not the same as when it is spontaneous. "Force" does not even mean an effort, I mean "on purpose". You think about it and you do it. It does not happen by itself (will see it better if I say a fart, a burp, a yawn, laughing... they happen alone, or you can induce them on purpose!)
eek, when you do not think about what you have relaxed, it's gone.
Some retrain things in 40 days with limbic protocoles working on the habits of the body.
Some work as in martial arts, longer than 40 days but also with regularity. Creating new habits is about limbic brain.
With stretching the problem becomes obvious!
When you do not do it again, results fade away!
Difficult to go against the inner force of the body...
Some work on the autonomic nervous system, to discharge the activation and get a long term relax as a basis. Then you can function as needed.
All good if you understand and can have access to the practical way to do it.

Tibetan monks who can generate so much heat they can sit bare-chested out in the ice and snow with no ill effects. They can do that by breathing less, not more. They have mastered the ability to control their breathing by establishing contact with the parasympathetic system.
They acquired that ability by learning how to be still. Less is more.

It is the reverse, they establish contact with the ANS by controling their breathing.
And better than establish contact, as this contact is there, they notice the contact our body all the time has through ANS!
And what they learn maybe, is how to use the thinking brain to control what cannot be controlled... because it is automatic, our bodies take care of us!

Hope this explains better than my original answer: "Yes but they do not do this ALLL the time. What you do or can do is not you metabolic state.
I also use slow breathing to reach some very relaxed states, but not all the time. I posted such an exercise that includes yawning.
Buteyko says not to yawn, and I disagree with this in some cases. You should not interfere with what the body does at SNS level but take the message your body sends you. When you increase CO2 in blood, you indeed activate the parasympathetic system.

Well, I'm not sure what you mean by "all the time", or who is suggesting that. Or even who could do that.
It's a bi-directional system. If one does not have the ability for a healthy expenditure of energy, you can't relax. But the converse is also true.
That's just a basic way I have of understanding Peat's ideas.

Because you mentionned they do that by "breathing less, not more". (which is right)
So I precise that you can breath less not more when needed, and this does not mean this is the general way to go, nor that it is what a monk does the rest of the time.
The reason we can't relax can also be this one: when you relax, your body will NEVER relax more than it can. Because if this happens, then you can have a surge of sympathetic activation, one that was stuck below. The image would be a low tide that makes dangerous rocks appear. Your body relaxes no more than a safe threshold. Or else some people can have a panick attack when they relax and stay still.
Another thing you said about staying still is interresting, that monks learned it. It is not learning in the way we usually use the word, but yes there is such a practise, and it is to learn to feel safe when still. Stillness can be frightening for some people in case of surgery trauma for example, or if you have been tightened as a child to get treated, ot whatever frightened you and you stayed as a statue.

Eck said that when balancing minerals, you go back step by step to former states that builded one upon the former.
With breathing, we can help the body for sure because we manipulate pH. So...

 

[rmgwm]

Does anyone know of a reliable and relatively inexpensive device that can measure c02 and oxygen levels? I have seen some devices but am not sure how reliable they are, maybe someone has some real experience

 

[Ledo]

No... I say that people who argue get more answers. An answer is a gratification.
Yes we need a safe zone to speak and understand.
I do understand the balance and most answers, but there are things I want details about, and I have the answer to a question I posted before just when people are arguing? Not the best IMO!

Xisca is absolutely right on target, only those who instigate Gbold get a response from him and many good pertinent questions put forth by thoughtful forum members get ignored and drowned out by the members whom evidently "had enough" and start the same old "no evidense, unsientific " tripe to discredit Gbold...saving us all!...ending this madman, etc

Yes @gbolduev goes to far in running Peat down. Peat never positioned himself as an anti-aging guru, far from it. If anything it is this forum that has done that. Peat is shy, unassuming and just says to eat whatever might best support the metabolic rate long term, kind of a statement about balance. He has aged more quickly the past 9 years BUT THAT IN AND OF ITSELF DOES NOT MAKE HIM A CHARLATAN. Gbold is to close to this line and should back off as it feeds certain types who have a problem when their world view gets challenged. Out of the woodwork they come one by one upping the room adrenakine which does unfortunately seem to feed Gbold.

It will be through him answering questions testing his knowledge and methods like the ones Xisca has asked but not gotten answers to that ultimately tell if Gbold has anything or not. I'm very sure with the level of talent in the room, Gbold's competency level will be determined. I pulling for this guy because just so far what he has put out has been incredibly valuable for me personally and I know other people as well feel the same, but we need the last important piece from him and the at this point the peat purists popping out of the shower like psyco movie at gbold is just plain stupid. ASK THE GUY SOMETHING RELEVANT AND SEE IF HE CAN DELIVER. After all he is claiming to cure the C word so please refrain from, "you have no evidence blah, blah over and over"

 

[paymanz]

In the short-term, rebreathing carbon dioxide makes one hyperventilate, but after a few weeks of adaptation to the higher CO2 level, CO2 exposure tends to slow breathing, both immediately after exposure and for a few hours beyond cessation.

Yes , your nervous system gets adapted to co2 levels.

So if you keep it slightly higher for a while you get used to it.

Buteyko practitioners also always rec to just slow breathe rate not to degree of feeling uncomfortable.

Do it in 5_10 mins sessions and your body gets adapted slowly.

So it doesn't necessarily turn on your sympathetic nervous system.

 

[Ledo]

Concentric exercise , under lactic acid threshold.

Many trainer who probably don't even know ray peat also rec to keep exercise intensity in a way that you still can speak while doing training.

I think Ray heavily underestimates exercise importance. I never saw him mention anything more than walking and lifting two 5 pound dumbbells 10 times. Now with Gbolds cases we can see exactly who is hurt by this

 

[Ledo]

I call BS.

No one cares right now hampster, call bs all you want but don't

I call BS.

No one cares right now hampster, just want to see what the balancing techniques are right now , ok?...please go save somebody else on another website or good read the thousands of posts on this forum not touched by GBold. Right now this is about getting this guy to flesh out his model with PRACTICAL methods we can employ at home and see if it makes any difference. Simple. If you stay here you risk stretching your world view, you ready for that maybe?

 

[Tarmander]

I think Ray heavily underestimates exercise importance. I never saw him mention anything more than walking and lifting two 5 pound dumbbells 10 times. Now with Gbolds cases we can see exactly who is hurt by this

Peat has mentioned sprinting and some other exercises that he thinks are healthful so long as your glycogen storage is up for the challenge. Basically exercise is good if you do not go into the stress response. The anti exercise thing was mostly started around here from the studies posted.

 

[Xisca]

Basically exercise is good if you do not go into the stress response.

Or you can go into some stress response, if you know how to go out of it.
Some people just stay too high too long, and in that case the lack of resilience is the problem, and then better be careful with anything triggering a stress response.

after a few weeks of adaptation to the higher CO2 level

we need to define what is adaptation.
I understood along the way that it was, or could be in some cases, that the body increases bicarbonate....

Also from behavioural world, we learn what is addiction, and I think this can be crossed with opposite endocrinology... ups forgot the right word for it!
That would explain why we get addiction from very useful substances, the 1s being sugar! Then think about coffee or cigarettes too! We have to find the right way to use them. Addiction in this case has to do with building UP some receptors. And @gbolduev talked about it. Here I want to talk only about CO2, hey! But I can see that there is a same phenomenom in "getting adapted" to CO2.

 

[Tarmander]

Or you can go into some stress response, if you know how to go out of it.
Some people just stay too high too long, and in that case the lack of resilience is the problem, and then better be careful with anything triggering a stress response.

Did Peat say that or is that from you?

 

[Xisca]

I give credit and I quote when I use what thinks somebody else!
This is me giving context.
Just in case, some people could think that it is bad to exercise and have a stress response, and I do not think so.
Exercise without stress response is good for some people, but stress is good too, not all the time and not for everybody.
The basic problem of stress is to stay in it too long. It is not supposed to be permanent, so I say that you can stress yourself if you know how go out of stress, and then you also have to decide the intensity that is possible for yourself. Stress does not mean damage.

And above theory, who knows when the stress limit is attained or even passed? Not so easy.