Seriously Confused About CO2 After Reading Gbolduev's Thread

lampofred

Member
Joined
Feb 13, 2016
Messages
3,244
What he says is in direct opposition to what Peat says and what Buteyko says, but it makes sense...

So why does hyperventilating cause seizures? Is it better for your health to hyperventilate or hypoventilate?

Can someone who is in touch with Peat show him gbolduev's posts and ask him to respond?

This is a pretty fundamental thing to be unsure about...
 

Mjhl85

Member
Joined
Mar 30, 2016
Messages
119
my question would be, why is everybody suddenly hanging on the word of some anonymous person on a forum?
thought this was a ray peat forum.
 

gbolduev

Member
Joined
Jun 26, 2014
Messages
464
What he says is in direct opposition to what Peat says and what Buteyko says, but it makes sense...

So why does hyperventilating cause seizures? Is it better for your health to hyperventilate or hypoventilate?

Can someone who is in touch with Peat show him gbolduev's posts and ask him to respond?

This is a pretty fundamental thing to be unsure about...

it is best to normal ventilate :))

if you hyperventilate or hypoventilate you will have problems.
 

Xisca

Member
Joined
Mar 30, 2015
Messages
2,273
Location
Canary Spain
The question is pretty good, and there is not that much opposition between the persons whose names have been cited. They just talk about different examples, context, and also we may not understand fully what they say!
I am going to gather a few quote to tell so...
I remember things about "CO2 levels changing quick in blood, but bicarbonate levels not changing quick", because in 1st case it is done by lings, and in 2nd it is done by kidneys.

I understood things simple:
- There are things that go up and down together, ...and others that do it in opposite ways.
CO2 and bicarbonate seem to be an example of this.
- Our bodies will try to maintain what is most vital, and will accomodate with the rest,
by removing things like minerals away from the body OR making reserves in a place of the body where it will less damage.
- The body can also take things where it is needed but less useful, and put it where it should not be but is needed at the moment.
Best example is calcium that the body takes from bones and put in our cells.
- As CO2 has to do with pH, then I think there is a link with what happens with minerals...

For CO2, I also already understood that we have to see if we talk about it being in lungs, blood, cells... and if it is produced by the cell ...or coming from another origin like produced by bacterias in our guts.

Thus it makes sense that we can regulate a LOT of things in our bodies by the right way of breathing!
And the right way will not be the same for everybody.
And for the same person, it will change according to the moment too.

So yes, a summary of all this is very interesting, thanks @lampofred
 
Last edited:

Xisca

Member
Joined
Mar 30, 2015
Messages
2,273
Location
Canary Spain
Hope the thread will lenghthen constructively.

Buteyko's exercices seem to work well for asthma.
Also he says diabetis.

-> Any common point between those 2 issues for the CO2 levels or acidity state?

And I efficiently get rid of headaches from time to time, though my main success at the basis of the migraine problem has been to work on my nervous system.
Working with CP has been good when recovering from bronchitis, but only until I got a CP of 30. And it took me veeery little work to do so.

So I prefer to use this occasionally and not on a regular basis.
 
OP
L

lampofred

Member
Joined
Feb 13, 2016
Messages
3,244
So breath? wish I would've thought of that!

Peat says high CO2 removes epigenetic limitations, increases brain size, quenches free radicals, regenerates cells, and even neutralizes the effects of PUFA at very high levels. Those are benefits I definitely do not want to give up, especially if just breathing a little less than I normally do is all I need to do. At the same time, now I'm worried that breathing too little is going to suppress my thyroid, which will slow my metabolism and make me less active/energetic. By "just breathing" you're avoiding harm, but you're foregoing possible benefits also. Low O2/high CO2 is also consistently reported to increase dopamine.

Gbolduev gave a good argument against Peat, it's only right to want to hear a response from the man instead of just blindly continuing to follow him.
 

Xisca

Member
Joined
Mar 30, 2015
Messages
2,273
Location
Canary Spain
But you do not want it too high!
And if Peat said "high CO2" meaning higher CO2 when it is too low?
And high WHERE?
 

Xisca

Member
Joined
Mar 30, 2015
Messages
2,273
Location
Canary Spain
So, appart that it is not easy to modify ones breathing...
I understood that it is wise to breathe out "enough" CO2, so that the body can go on producing more in the cell.
the higher metabolism is, more CO2 is created inside of the cell. For this to be allowed you need to breathe out the Co2 created othewise your body won't allow you to have high CO2 production in the cell
Will it just reduce metabolism, or use aerobic glycolisis? Or both are possible, but in what case?
They all sat on their asses and ATE SUGAR 24/7. This lowered their metabolism big time, since CO2 created from sugar cant be breathed out properly when you sit around. This forces your metabolism to slow down
So we need enough CO2 in the blood for many reasons, like take O2 to the cells and have a parasympathetic action in general, and to not tighten arteries...
BUT if we have too much, not better at all.
It will also be very interresting to investigate the other causes of increase of CO2 in the blood...

Now about thyroid:
caffeine increases adrenaline which lowers Co2 and increases potassium in the cell. Caffeine increases metabolic rate, since potassium is what makes thyroid hormone sensitive in the cell.
Lowers CO2 in the cell?
thyroid will increase CO2.
Where does it increase it, in the cell?
high CO2 will kill immune system
High CO2 where?

Sorry for the questions, the quotes were in the context of another topic, and I gathered what was about only the CO2 theme.
 
Last edited:

Xisca

Member
Joined
Mar 30, 2015
Messages
2,273
Location
Canary Spain
Now I want to know more about the link with copper!
You gain weight when your sympathetic nervous system is down. you either lack adrenaline you are you high on serotonin. Most cases lack adrenaline. Some case are high on serotonin. this slows down your breathing rate, and you retain Co2 , which lowers your metabolism not to create more Co2 and you gain weight. thyroid in this cases increases metabolism but body cant use copper in this body chemistry thus your SODs are down. body lowerd your metabolism on purpose but you force it up with thyroid hormone, thinking you are smarter than your body.
Apart that I do not understand all of this...
If you force your body with thyroid hormone, I guess this is what creates this sort of "resistance" (I make a paralel with insuline resistance) ?

People get sick these days, since they dont move and eat sugar. This creates too much Co2 which they cant breathe out. This forces your body to lower CO2 production in the cell. Otherwise your PH balance is going to be screwed up.

And this retains tons of copper, since copper is used to break down serotonin in MAO- A. Serotonin hypoventilates you it a break on sympathetic nervous system. This body is retaining copper to stop the break .and allow sympathetic nervous system to run unopposed.
Somebody knows about copper and understand this?

Slow oxidizers retain Co2, and lack sympathetic nervous system they are overloaded with copper and calcium and will never do good on these.
I also don't understand why this overload of copper and calcium...
 
Last edited:

Xisca

Member
Joined
Mar 30, 2015
Messages
2,273
Location
Canary Spain
@gbolduev You mentioned people who have high CO2 get panic attacks, I would like to know how that is possible when the only way I have ever been able to stop a panic attack is to breathe slower thus retaining more CO2. In fact the hyperventilating during a panic attack can cause muscles to seize up. I had that once, my hands started seizing up because I was panicking so bad. So exercise can cause panic attacks due to hyperventilating.

Janelle, may be you did not get the difference between short term and long term. When your CO2 drops in a moment, you get the panick attack. When you drop CO2 slowly in the long term, then you do not get panick attacks, because you give time to your system to adapt, and you change the bicarbonate. That is what I understood from his past answers:

Panic attack is not from high CO2. Panic attack happens from alkalosis when you hyperventilate and your CO2 drops very low. But before you hyperventilated your CO2 was higher than norm, and that was compensated by bicarbonate. Then all of a sudden your breath out all of your CO2 but bicarb stays high, since it takes days to adjust. And thus you get into alkalosis.

When people have panic attack they will be helped by breathing into the bag since CO2 will go up faster.

But not to have panic attacks at all. You need to lower your base CO2 level , so your bicarb level also stays low. So then when you hyperventilate from stress fear or what ever, even if you breath out all of your Co2, your bicarb would not be high and would not cause alkalosis

the reason why I said panic attacks arise from high base level of CO2 is simple. If you have high base level of Co2 in blood, that will cause you to have high base level of bicarbonate in blood. If you all of a sudden hyperventilate, CO2 will go down very fast but bicarb which was high in blood would stay there for days since kidneys are slow. This causes periods of alkalosis. In alkalosis your calcium is not working and potassium shifts into the cell fast. If you have low base potassium level , ICF plus ECF you will have seizure since potassium will move fast into the cell and in blood it will be low.
 

Mjhl85

Member
Joined
Mar 30, 2016
Messages
119
Peat says high CO2 removes epigenetic limitations, increases brain size, quenches free radicals, regenerates cells, and even neutralizes the effects of PUFA at very high levels. Those are benefits I definitely do not want to give up, especially if just breathing a little less than I normally do is all I need to do. At the same time, now I'm worried that breathing too little is going to suppress my thyroid, which will slow my metabolism and make me less active/energetic. By "just breathing" you're avoiding harm, but you're foregoing possible benefits also. Low O2/high CO2 is also consistently reported to increase dopamine.

Gbolduev gave a good argument against Peat, it's only right to want to hear a response from the man instead of just blindly continuing to follow him.

thing is my original question still stands. Gbolduev gave a good argument against Peat how? Who quantifies that when nobody but Peat is the actual expert?
Everything he has said so far is in a vacuum. When you create CO2 and are ALIVE, and you aren't sick you will expire correctly and your body, as it has up until now knows what to do with the rest. People who are sick are not converting to co2 efficiently. To say otherwise totally misses the krebs cycle, you know that thing that is broken in sickly people.
He's taking for granted how co2 is even made. its not free, it doesn't just happen and pile up as he's suggesting. Slow oxidizers do not retain c02 efficiently, thats the point! It's directly a by product of health also feeding into health. Therefore increasing it by Peat means can and will help those who are sickly. And what are these assumed facts "people get sick these days because they dont move and eat sugar." UMM no I see people not eating sugar or at least the right kinds and over exercising assuming they are being "health conscience."
 

Xisca

Member
Joined
Mar 30, 2015
Messages
2,273
Location
Canary Spain
"people get sick these days because they dont move and eat sugar." UMM no I see people not eating sugar or at least the right kinds and over exercising assuming they are being "health conscience."
Yes "people get sick these days because they dont move and eat sugar." too much sugar.
And yes, people can be sick when they over exercise and do not eat enough sugar!

So you don't eat enough ...or too much, in RELATION to their energy burning in exercise.

Also, you can exercise in very different ways, and you speak about OVER exercising.
Easy, just relate carb consumtion and exercise, and do the right exercise for you.

It is not even about who said what, but about not understanding what is said when talking about "too much", "not enough", "hyper or hypo"....
 

Mjhl85

Member
Joined
Mar 30, 2016
Messages
119
Yes "people get sick these days because they dont move and eat sugar." too much sugar.
And yes, people can be sick when they over exercise and do not eat enough sugar!

So you don't eat enough ...or too much, in RELATION to their energy burning in exercise.

Also, you can exercise in very different ways, and you speak about OVER exercising.
Easy, just relate carb consumtion and exercise, and do the right exercise for you.
Those arent my words, I was quoting gbolduev
 

Xisca

Member
Joined
Mar 30, 2015
Messages
2,273
Location
Canary Spain
I know, I can read there are quotations mark. Why everybody is not cooling down and trying to understand first?
I have put all the quotations from gb up there!

It is easy to understand that sugar has to be related to the amount of exercise you do.
You can even include mental burning, but this is done too long comparing to physical exercise.
Nobody can exercise that long as we stay thinking!
Thus we have a problem with the nervous system,
because we do not go down to a parasympathetic state often enough!

When you exercise physically and properly, you activate sympathetic and parasympathetic in an ALTERNATE way. We have all read Peat speak about long distance running not being so good... so why long distance thinking would be good ?
 
Last edited:

Tarmander

Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2015
Messages
3,763
I think gbold has opened up some lines of inquiry that will be helpful.

From my understanding, doctors measure pCO2 and bicarb, and this buffer system, while not that significant a buffer system, also measures other buffer systems like serum protein and the calcium in your bones because your body will balance all these buffer systems together.

One claim Peat has made is that a higher amount of breathed in Co2, such as on a submarine, means less excreted Calcium and stronger bones. Although Peat also accounts for oxygen pressure being important...this is why being at high elevation is different then just sucking on a brown bag all day at low elevation...from my understanding.

What gbold is basically saying is that the higher Co2 in venous blood is forcing the body to lower energy production. Peat claims the higher amount of Co2 increases metabolic rate...but I am not sure Peat claims that higher venous Co2 is that same as living at a higher elevation. Peat also uses Co2 baths and these have a nice track record of making people feel great. I have actually experienced both of the cases described by Peat and by gbold. I just got back from a camping trip at 8k feet, and had a much stronger metabolism, better sleep, more energy, etc. I have also sat at home, breathed in a paper bag, and felt tired, uninspired, and low metabolic rate.
 

gbolduev

Member
Joined
Jun 26, 2014
Messages
464
You guys should discuss this in one thread. Creating tons of new threads will be crazy))))
 

Xisca

Member
Joined
Mar 30, 2015
Messages
2,273
Location
Canary Spain
You guys should discuss this in one thread. Creating tons of new threads will be crazy))))
If we manage to discuss ONLY of CO2 and do not waste time and pages in something else...
It was created because the other one is too long.
Length is more crazy!
 

Similar threads

Back
Top Bottom