Seriously Confused About CO2 After Reading Gbolduev's Thread

[paymanz]

Also do a search about carboxy therapy and how people use it for anti aging effects.

 

[gbolduev]

Carboxy therapy causes you to hyperventilate , do you get this or not? You put CO2 pressure in , body thinks wow too much CO2, and turns on methylation like crazy.Makes you adrenaline sensitive then you stop CO2 therapy , but body is still upregulated to get rid of it.. So if you give CO2 you will have little CO2 in the body. I hope you get this

This is why it helps. but if you eat sugar you produce your own CO2 too much and retain it and get old

Huge difference about giving CO2 and producing CO2. I think you don't get that the only way to fix something in the body is overload it with something over a short time and then watch it snap back to the different direction and stay they for a while

This is what carboxy therapy is all about. You overload with CO2 for a very short time, you activate sympathetic nervous system and then you take away this overload and boom you end up with very low venous CO2. Since 1) body turned off your thyroid by lowering potassium 2) body increased ventilaton like crazy to oppose this CO2.



But for Ray Peat being fast oxidizer this therapy is evil. Since he needs the opposite. This is why he got so old only in 5 years after he started to preach this kind of stuff

 

[Xisca]

Don't do it too high intensity that you go out of breath like you can't speak one sentence without problem.

I never do this, and I still have lactate after any normal activity...

"And also don't do it when your glycogen stores are depleted." How do you kow this?

"Concentric is like hill climbing. Essentric is when you come of of hill.
Or when you lift up a weight that is concentric. And when you control weight to slowly lower it it is essentric. "
In those examples, you cannot do one without the other!
Or like me, you go uphill walking, and then downhill in the telepheric!

Also do a search about carboxy therapy and how people use it for anti aging effects.

Anti-aging for who? ...context

Why many schools of breathing mistakenly teach one method as “the” method when the right breath practice depends on you and your situation

Post very welcome!
I extend this mistake to all what is about health, including diet.

I am still not following you, but if you could not quote me from another thread out of context, and then quote a moderation reminder from Charlie, implying that somehow it applies to me, that would be much appreciated.

Ho I am sorry you thought this! i do not imply it applies to you any more than to others! No, this was to mention that it has been noticed that it might be going into some arguing just because it is good for adrenaline! As you said, it is exciting...
I just wanted to let you and regina have credit of an idea instead of plagiing you both...
And I kept reminding that it goes off topic so much that many answers do not help.
But I agree when paymanz says it has not to be all about the word CO2!

Still, I have no answer to understand some quotes of the 1st page about the role of some minerals.... as they have to do with cell respiration and CO2 being produced after oxidization in the mito....

 

[ecstatichamster]

the link you gave doesn't work . any other link for the paper ?

Experiments on acclimatisation to reduced atmospheric pressure
Authors

• Haldane J. S.,
• Kellas A. M.,
• Kennaway E. L.

Experiments on acclimatisation to reduced atmospheric pressure

 

[ecstatichamster]

I'm sure that @goldbuev has interesting things to say but he never gives cites. They are all over the place he says. I have no more interest in this thread or any other where he and others like him set themselves up as gurus and never cite proof.

 

[Xisca]

When you are the direct experimenter, you do not cite.
And also, you can always cite something you find what goes into the direction you want. Eg the chinese study used by vegetarians... And sure many others.

What is interresting are things like this:
"I think you don't get that the only way to fix something in the body is overload it with something over a short time and then watch it snap back to the different direction and stay they for a while"

How to induce the change you want, by making the body do what is needed, instead of letting your body blocked into something of the past! This past was useful and necessary at some past time, or else the body would not have have done it. But sometimes the body cannot be resilient enough to go off the mecanism and go back into a good normal flow of life.

 

[ecstatichamster]

When you are the direct experimenter, you do not cite.
And also, you can always cite something you find that goes into the direction you want.

I call BS.

 

[Diokine]

g’ßolduevone (11hydroxy-2,4,3α-hydroxyomega decatrioxylanoic-acid)


I think the idea of persistent respiratory alkalosis as a source of irrecoverable metabolic distress is a very novel and elegant one, and I learned a lot trying to reconcile it. In fact it helped to integrate a lot of different stress adaptation patterns that I had been bumbling around with in my mind, and so that was very appreciated. I think that here lies a great source of confusion though, and I’m seeing a lot of different kinds of misunderstandings as evidence.


CO2 is best understood in the context of Gilbert Ling’s Associate Induction hypothesis. The ability of tissue to support the production and retention of CO2 varies in direct proportion with the ability of the tissue to efficiently respire. Tissue respiration is life, and is controlled in large part by the interaction of electrical charges with different kinds of protein complexes and ionic gradients.


This is quite a complicated task actually, and there are many ways the body controls it. The brain is at the top of the organization, and the kidneys with their kidney juice are number two. Calcium, sodium, potassium, chlorides, serious business no doubt. The amount of water that the tissue holds is held in place with protein and close, complicated ionic interactions. Take prolactin for instance. In a lactating breast, it would be important to encourage fluid retention to ensure adequate fluid for milk production. Imagine how important fluid retention would be upon repeated exposure to stressful heat.


The musical movements that compose the concert of our metabolic arrangement are timed with compounds from the adrenal cortex – important in regulating the movement of glucose and minerals. The tamber and resonance are set with important ratios; NADP and NADPH, cyclic AMP and cyclic GMP, turning like a water wheel that is fed from pool, replenished by the sun. Large swings in these ratios can result in changes in pH and can completely alter the local electronic environment of a tissue. Disruption in the balance is dangerous, and a respiratory defect which does not allow for resolution can be catastrophe.


It’s not the amount of CO2, it’s the ability of it to be present. Permissive hypercapnia can retrain the setpoint controlled by the hypothalamus and carotid bodies, and done properly can have serious benefit to the bodies metabolic response to stress. I think that honest, proper integration with the breath would reveal the presence of most respiratory defects. It should, in this case, be straightforward to find their resolution. Of course, the presence of persistent allergic triggers and microbial toxins will make proper respiration nearly impossible. These should always be addressed.


I really don’t see much conflict with this new information and the paradigm that Dr. Peat has produced. Maybe just misunderstanding as to the context.

 

[gbolduev]

I'm sure that @goldbuev has interesting things to say but he never gives cites. They are all over the place he says. I have no more interest in this thread or any other where he and others like him set themselves up as gurus and never cite proof.

There is no proof needed for this. YOu just read a book for anesthesiology. Why should I cite simple 2 +2 things, that are not being researched , they are being used on a daily basis in the emergency rooms. This is taught in medical school.

I stated that many many times and quite sick of people with bro science from forums who read studies without even understanding them/
there is a profession called anesthesiologist who specializes in all of this, And for some reason this forum thinks this is some kind of new information. this is ridiculous already. this is a simple acid balance , like calculus in math. Read and learn, you don't need studies for that. It is all known

 

[paymanz]

Carboxy therapy causes you to hyperventilate , do you get this or not? You put CO2 pressure in , body thinks wow too much CO2, and turns on methylation like crazy.Makes you adrenaline sensitive then you stop CO2 therapy , but body is still upregulated to get rid of it.. So if you give CO2 you will have little CO2 in the body. I hope you get this

This is why it helps. but if you eat sugar you produce your own CO2 too much and retain it and get old

Huge difference about giving CO2 and producing CO2. I think you don't get that the only way to fix something in the body is overload it with something over a short time and then watch it snap back to the different direction and stay they for a while

This is what carboxy therapy is all about. You overload with CO2 for a very short time, you activate sympathetic nervous system and then you take away this overload and boom you end up with very low venous CO2. Since 1) body turned off your thyroid by lowering potassium 2) body increased ventilaton like crazy to oppose this CO2.



But for Ray Peat being fast oxidizer this therapy is evil. Since he needs the opposite. This is why he got so old only in 5 years after he started to preach this kind of stuff

Carboxy therapy improves circulation and oxygenation, do you understand it or not?

Apparently you just evaluate everything in one dimension.

You think excess co2 make your lung go panic and hyperventilate and that is all you say.

I have to write 100 lines for you and I'm sure you won't understand.

How can cominucate with you while you deny simple /universally accepted stuff like glycogen and carb.

You think nutrition is bro science.

 

[paymanz]

I'm sure that @goldbuev has interesting things to say but he never gives cites. They are all over the place he says. I have no more interest in this thread or any other where he and others like him set themselves up as gurus and never cite proof.

He has some truth in his mind but he is heavily confused , he lost the main line.

 

[gbolduev]

Carboxy therapy improves circulation and oxygenation, do you understand it or not?

Apparently you just evaluate everything in one dimension.

You think excess co2 make your lung go panic and hyperventilate and that is all you say.

I have to write 100 lines for you and I'm sure you won't understand.

How can cominucate with you while you deny simple /universally accepted stuff like glycogen and carb.

You think nutrition is bro science.

End of conversation with you . your bro science just amazes me. I explained to you how the body reacts to carboxy therapy.
Nutrition on your level is a bro science, you have no idea what you are talking about. I am talking enzyme buffer systems and minerals and you talk on the level of charlatans from TV programs. you OPEN anethesilogy book and you read. This is my simple advice to you. and then you come back to me in 3-5 years and we will talk

As of now, Sorry but I will have to ignore you .

 

[paymanz]

I never do this, and I still have lactate after any normal activity.

Ray has article about this problem, you can read that.

"And also don't do it when your glycogen stores are depleted." How do you kow this?

You got to keep your body insulin sensitive, then sugar craving is a sign that you glycogen is depleted. In a normal scenario it is like that.

In those examples, you cannot do one without the other!
Or like me, you go uphill walking, and then downhill in the telepheric!

You can drop weight after you lift it to avoid essentric part.like Olympic weight lifters.that is especially is good for nervous system as you use your calfs muscle, core body big muscles to do the lift

Coming hills down probably is not as bad as essentric part of weight lifting.

And also your muscles gets use to essentric part to some degree.

It is very vast topic of discussion. Other guys has god post about this on the forum.

The problem with essentric part is that you use elastic power of muscle fiber to do it and it damages them.the tricky point here is that you may use this elastic power in concentric movement if you lift too heavy hit/push the weight up. That is damaging too.

Sprinting, throwing weights, pushing car, all if done 70_80 intensity probably is good. All is concentric.

 

[paymanz]

End of conversation with you . your bro science just amazes me. I explained to you how the body reacts to carboxy therapy.
Nutrition on your level is a bro science, you have no idea what you are talking about. I am talking enzyme buffer systems and minerals and you talk on the level of charlatans from TV programs. you OPEN anethesilogy book and you read. This is my simple advice to you. and then you come back to me in 3-5 years and we will talk

As of now, Sorry but I will have to ignore you .

LOL

I have no word for you.re read what I wrote for you.

 

[paymanz]

Xisca, here is a example what he recs for lower lactic acid , last paragraphs of this article,
Mitochondria and mortality

I personally think manganese and taurine are helpful too.

 

[Xisca]

Buteyko's exercices seem to work well for asthma.
Also he says diabetis.
-> Any common point between those 2 issues for the CO2 levels or acidity state?

Asthmatic people chronically hyperventilate and they have not enough CO2 in their blood?
So do diabetics?
Or is this something else that put them in chronic state of having not enough CO2, then what?

 

[Regina]

g’ßolduevone (11hydroxy-2,4,3α-hydroxyomega decatrioxylanoic-acid)


I think the idea of persistent respiratory alkalosis as a source of irrecoverable metabolic distress is a very novel and elegant one, and I learned a lot trying to reconcile it. In fact it helped to integrate a lot of different stress adaptation patterns that I had been bumbling around with in my mind, and so that was very appreciated. I think that here lies a great source of confusion though, and I’m seeing a lot of different kinds of misunderstandings as evidence.


CO2 is best understood in the context of Gilbert Ling’s Associate Induction hypothesis. The ability of tissue to support the production and retention of CO2 varies in direct proportion with the ability of the tissue to efficiently respire. Tissue respiration is life, and is controlled in large part by the interaction of electrical charges with different kinds of protein complexes and ionic gradients.


This is quite a complicated task actually, and there are many ways the body controls it. The brain is at the top of the organization, and the kidneys with their kidney juice are number two. Calcium, sodium, potassium, chlorides, serious business no doubt. The amount of water that the tissue holds is held in place with protein and close, complicated ionic interactions. Take prolactin for instance. In a lactating breast, it would be important to encourage fluid retention to ensure adequate fluid for milk production. Imagine how important fluid retention would be upon repeated exposure to stressful heat.


The musical movements that compose the concert of our metabolic arrangement are timed with compounds from the adrenal cortex – important in regulating the movement of glucose and minerals. The tamber and resonance are set with important ratios; NADP and NADPH, cyclic AMP and cyclic GMP, turning like a water wheel that is fed from pool, replenished by the sun. Large swings in these ratios can result in changes in pH and can completely alter the local electronic environment of a tissue. Disruption in the balance is dangerous, and a respiratory defect which does not allow for resolution can be catastrophe.


It’s not the amount of CO2, it’s the ability of it to be present. Permissive hypercapnia can retrain the setpoint controlled by the hypothalamus and carotid bodies, and done properly can have serious benefit to the bodies metabolic response to stress. I think that honest, proper integration with the breath would reveal the presence of most respiratory defects. It should, in this case, be straightforward to find their resolution. Of course, the presence of persistent allergic triggers and microbial toxins will make proper respiration nearly impossible. These should always be addressed.


I really don’t see much conflict with this new information and the paradigm that Dr. Peat has produced. Maybe just misunderstanding as to the context.

Nice post.

 

[Owen B]

My science IQ is woeful compared to the posts here, but this is a topic that interests me.

In one of Rahkimov's books (the Buteyko guy) he cites the example of Tibetan monks who can generate so much heat they can sit bare-chested out in the ice and snow with no ill effects. They can do that by breathing less, not more. They have mastered the ability to control their breathing by establishing contact with the parasympathetic system.

They didn't acquire that ability by over-breathing, over-exercise or by bench pressing 300 lbs.

They acquired that ability by learning how to be still. Less is more.

 

[Xisca]

They can do that by breathing less, not more.

Yes but they do not do this ALLL the time. What you do or can do is not you metabolic state.

I also use slow breathing to reach some very relaxed states, but not all the time.
I posted such an exercise that includes yawning.
Buteyko says not to yawn, and I disagree with this in some cases. You should not interfere with what the vody does at SNS level but take the message your body sends you.

When you increase CO2 in blood, you indeed acivate the parasympathetic system.

 

[Owen B]

Yes but they do not do this ALLL the time. What you do or can do is not you metabolic state.

I also use slow breathing to reach some very relaxed states, but not all the time.
I posted such an exercise that includes yawning.
Buteyko says not to yawn, and I disagree with this in some cases. You should not interfere with what the vody does at SNS level but take the message your body sends you.

When you increase CO2 in blood, you indeed acivate the parasympathetic system.

Well, I'm not sure what you mean by "all the time", or who is suggesting that. Or even who could do that.

It's a bi-directional system. If one does not have the ability for a healthy expenditure of energy, you can't relax. But the converse is also true.

That's just a basic way I have of understanding Peat's ideas.