Seriously Confused About CO2 After Reading Gbolduev's Thread

[Xisca]

Everyone needs higher CO2 levels.

I don't even think it is possible to say that something is good for everyone...
It is true or not that when you have more co2 then the body makes more bicarbonate to balance pH?

Then what about people having a lot of co2 and a lot of bicarb and then hyperventilate for exercise or fear, and have a panick attack because only the co2 goes down and not the bicarbonate?

 

[ecstatichamster]

Pretty much. One of the many false things that Gbol claimed was that increasing CO2 will increase your breathing rate and make you hyperventilate. Exactly the opposite is true. Even if you put people in a closed chamber with 1.5% Co2, their breathing rate will go down significantly.

breathing rate may be faster but shallower, volume per minute will be lower.

 

[Kartoffel]

breathing rate may be faster but shallower, volume per minute will be lower.

I think it will be the other way around.

ARTICLES | Journal of Applied Physiology

 

[ecstatichamster]

I don't even think it is possible to say that something is good for everyone...
It is true or not that when you have more co2 then the body makes more bicarbonate to balance pH?

Then what about people having a lot of co2 and a lot of bicarb and then hyperventilate for exercise or fear, and have a panick attack because only the co2 goes down and not the bicarbonate?

I think it will be the other way around.

ARTICLES | Journal of Applied Physiology

my experience is higher CO2 sometimes (often, during exercises) increases breathing rate but lowers amount of air breathed per minute

 

[Xisca]

increasing CO2 will increase your breathing rate and make you hyperventilate. Exactly the opposite is true.

Well I never read he wrote this... or it is me who do not remember?
I thought I read that increasing co2 will modify slightly the pH towards acidity, which will be compensated by bicarbonate.
Also read that if too much co2 in the blood, the cells will have the tendency to not produce as much co2 as they should...

please can you differenciate if you talk about general increase, or momentaneous, as this is very different.

Would you mind explaining to me what this means? I have no idea what you mean when you say that CO2 induces a parasympathetic state.

Relaxation, including of the blood vessels, thus the best delivery of oxygene to cells.
At ANS level this results in a spontaneous expiratory pause. I can reach confortably breathe twice per minute.

BUT my body therapist told me I was not breathing enough (meaning my spontaneous breathing even when I half fall alseep) and that there was a problem: I do not leave enough time for gases exchanges because of superficial breathing. As it comes form a shock to diaphragm and other problems, I did a big session about it, and let's see...

 

[Kartoffel]

my experience is higher CO2 sometimes (often, during exercises) increases breathing rate but lowers amount of air breathed per minute

Ok, of course higher CO2 levels during active phases will increase breathing rate. What I meant is that a gradual increase of CO2 will slow down your breathing at rest. Or in other words, that people with higher CO2 baseline levels breathe more slowly than those that have lower CO2 levels and tend towards hyperventilation.

 

[griesburner]

Also read that if too much co2 in the blood, the cells will have the tendency to not produce as much co2 as they should

Thats the explanation from Gborduev right? it made the most sense to me personally that its a matter of balance and it IS possible that you retain to much Co2. i think i do hypoventilate, too. I always check my breath and compare it to others around me. i always breath much less then my girlfriend, my friends etc. but they are all healthier than me.
But in the view of peat there could not be too much Co2, right?

How could we practically getting the truth now besides arguing who is right? ^^ thats the problem, i dont know how and which to believe.

 

[Xisca]

But in the view of peat there could not be too much Co2, right?

This is just impossible! Peat cannot say two things at the same time and cannot envisage all cases. Let's not derail, but I give just the parallel: he is against hypermethylation, but does not speak of hypomethylated people, and that was my case...

I am very good at doing buteyko breathing, but my therapist as I said told me I had to change my breathing before any other work! Change for less superficial breathing.

And I have tried to push with fruits and honey, and no way, my analysis say I have too much lactate... and my pains say the same. So it makes sense that even if I push with sugar it does not change, I do not produce enough co2, but lactate yes. What is important is that it is related to the ANS, autonomic nervous system.

I have an active life, live outside and I have never had problems with wieght gain ever and cellulitis started only recently, with sugar diet and coconut. A friend got the same too.

So I do not think I have problems with sugar metabolism because of burning fats.

 

[Kartoffel]

Well I never read he wrote this... or it is me who do not remember?
I thought I read that increasing co2 will modify slightly the pH towards acidity, which will be compensated by bicarbonate.
Also read that if too much co2 in the blood, the cells will have the tendency to not produce as much co2 as they should...

please can you differenciate if you talk about general increase, or momentaneous, as this is very different.

Relaxation, including of the blood vessels, thus the best delivery of oxygene to cells.
At ANS level this results in a spontaneous expiratory pause. I can reach confortably breathe twice per minute.

BUT my body therapist told me I was not breathing enough (meaning my spontaneous breathing even when I half fall alseep) and that there was a problem: I do not leave enough time for gases exchanges because of superficial breathing. As it comes form a shock to diaphragm and other problems, I did a big session about it, and let's see...

Yeah, he wrote that higher CO2 levels will cause you to hyperventilate and panic more quickly. His test have shown that he said. A momentary increase of CO2 is likely to slightly lower your ph as well as a large continuous increase. But I can't see how that would be harmful, and the ph balance quickly finds a new stable equilibrium. Sympathetic and Parasympathetic action are often really vague terms (I guess that's why gbol liked to use them), so I didn't know what exactly you mean. The parasympathetic system is always the "relaxed" system.
What do you mean by superficial breathing and what shock to your diaphragm do you mean? I think it is very important to breathe "deep" in the sense that you use your diaphragm and not your chest, but "shallow" in the sense that you decrease the volume enough so that the diaphragm can handle the gas exchange, and the chest needs to do as little as possible.

 

[Xisca]

What do you mean by superficial breathing and what shock to your diaphragm do you mean? I think it is very important to breathe "deep" in the sense that you use your diaphragm and not your chest, but "shallow" in the sense that you decrease the volume enough so that the diaphragm can handle the gas exchange, and the chest needs to do as little as possible.

I had a fall that emptied my lungs fast and strong. back problems since...
I have a life long belly breathing, remember to be told this at school... but my problem is also with the upper diaphragm and it is necessary to use the shoulders too! My problem was to move only my belly and I do not use the chest.... My intercostal muscles are stiff too.

 

[Xisca]

Yeah, he wrote that higher CO2 levels will cause you to hyperventilate and panic more quickly.

Absolutely not!
It was about Janelle having panich attacks, and he told her why it worked to breathe in a paper bag.
He never said that high co2 is the cause of hyperventilation.
He said that when your baseline is high in co2, then IF you happen to hyperventilate, like with fear, then the sharp sudden difference will not let your kidneys remove bicarb fast enough, and then comes the panick attack.
Does it make sense?

So if the co2 baseline is changed, it can help to have less panick attacks, I guess...

 

[Xisca]

Sympathetic and Parasympathetic action are often really vague terms (I guess that's why gbol liked to use them), so I didn't know what exactly you mean. The parasympathetic system is always the "relaxed" system.

I just let you know that I have been studying this for some years and that doctors in the course did not know before, what we learned.... It is not vague at all. And when I read some of Eck, it made me understand the link between minerals balance and what is wrecked havoc in the system by all sort of traumas and accidents!
BTW, PS is more than relaxed system....

 

[Kartoffel]

Absolutely not!
It was about Janelle having panich attacks, and he told her why it worked to breathe in a paper bag.
He never said that high co2 is the cause of hyperventilation.
He said that when your baseline is high in co2, then IF you happen to hyperventilate, like with fear, then the sharp sudden difference will not let your kidneys remove bicarb fast enough, and then comes the panick attack.
Does it make sense?

So if the co2 baseline is changed, it can help to have less panick attacks, I guess...

That sounds like I remember it. It comes down to the same statement: If you have higher baseline CO2, you will panic more easily, and therefore more often. What's wrong with that theory is that higher baseline CO2 will prevent hyperventilation and panic attacks in the first place, and you also assume that people with higher baseline CO2 would lose carbon dioxide faster in relation to the simultaneous reduction in bicarbonate. This is a very simplistic idea, and evidence suggests otherwise.

 

[griesburner]

the other thing i didnt liked about the buteyko method was that it is based on some things you should not do that are part of every life. For example I've read that it is unhealthy to even yawn. But otherwise you can read everywhere that yawning is very healthy and even oxygenizes the brain. And I personally think yawning is very calming and has a good anti-stress effect even if someone might lose a bit of Co2.

Then there is the point where buteyko method says people who are singing and people who speak very much age faster (or is unhealthy) cause they lose too much Co2.

I must admit that i got this information about buteyko from some websites so dont know how exactly this matches the original method.

Besides that i know Buteyko is not Peat nor is it Gborduev but for this thread i think it could matter.

 

[Kartoffel]

the other thing i didnt liked about the buteyko method was that it is based on some things you should not do that are part of every life. For example I've read that it is unhealthy to even yawn. But otherwise you can read everywhere that yawning is very healthy and even oxygenizes the brain. And I personally think yawning is very calming and has a good anti-stress effect even if someone might lose a bit of Co2.

Then there is the point where buteyko method says people who are singing and people who speak very much age faster (or is unhealthy) cause they lose too much Co2.

I must admit that i got this information about buteyko from some websites so dont know how exactly this matches the original method.

Besides that i know Buteyko is not Peat nor is it Gborduev but for this thread i think it could matter.

I don't think Buteyko ever said that you shouldn't yawn. What he and most his followers say is that yawning is a sign of poor oxygenation and insufficient CO2. In my experience, that absolutely correct. I yawn when I am tired or exhausted, and I think of it as an equivalent to a deep chest breath after being physically exhausted.
Not talking too much is probably a very good thing for many reasons, besides loosing Co2. You ever noticed how lots of people (mostly women) talk so fast that they have to catch a breath in between? Estrogen excites the brain and causes you to hyperventilate. I assume that's why so many women often talk extraordinary fast, to the point that you can't properly understand them anymore. We once had a vegan girl in class. Her hands were always ice cold, but she was talking like a machine gun - no one was really able to follow her sentences and it was exhausting to try following her arguments. Being in a stressful situation like an oral exam has the same effect: Hyperventilation -->Breathlessness -->incoherent arguments .
You ever noticed how slowly Peat talks? Many people see that as a sign of old age and weakness, but I think it just shows that he has a healthy metabolism and high CO2 levels. He usually never looses his train of thought and can talk for hours without building an incorrect sentence structure.

 

[Xisca]

That sounds like I remember it. It comes down to the same statement: If you have higher baseline CO2, you will panic more easily, and therefore more often. What's wrong with that theory is that higher baseline CO2 will prevent hyperventilation and panic attacks in the first place, and you also assume that people with higher baseline CO2 would lose carbon dioxide faster in relation to the simultaneous reduction in bicarbonate. This is a very simplistic idea, and evidence suggests otherwise.

Like saying "increasing CO2 will increase your breathing rate and make you hyperventilate. Exactly the opposite is true.", it is still not coherent.
@mattyb is the one who can be more precise...
What I can say is that panic attacks have other sources at ANS level. These panick attacks are solved in therapy.
I do not assume anything like what you said last either. It is not what I said.
I just said that co2 is more rapidly breathed out by lungs than bicarb is excreted by kidneys.

I never said a person with high baseline Co2 should get an acute alkalosis more quickly than someone with normal or low CO2.

 

[Xisca]

I don't think Buteyko ever said that you shouldn't yawn. What he and most his followers say is that yawning is a sign of poor oxygenation and insufficient CO2. In my experience, that absolutely correct. I yawn when I am tired or exhausted, and I think of it as an equivalent to a deep chest breath after being physically exhausted.

Yes Buteyko said it, or his followers transmit it. I read that if you want to yawn during a breathing exercise, you have to try your best and stop it!!!!
Yawning is not directly linked to being tired...

I and other persons trained about the ANS would considere a mistake to stop any yawning. It is a SPONTANEOUS sign of change in the body. It helps the body sustain changes! That is why you have it when tired... A sigh is also the same sign of change... in general towards a paraS state, or it means you resist the change! Like when you try to stay awake! It is actually like a sort of decompression stop, like in diving. It helps the body to adapt. Do you see why you were confused about your experience? You cannot know this unless you learn it, but you can always see that it is logic when you know this.

I am trained in somatic experiencing, and this knowledge about the autonomic nervous system and its relationship to co2 has nothing to do with what I have read on this forum.

I am not going to fall into the trap of being angry after people who pretend vague things about the sympathetic and parasympathetic system when they do not know it, because you need to go and read about it. And then experience it.

 

[Xisca]

the other thing i didnt liked about the buteyko method was that it is based on some things you should not do that are part of every life. For example I've read that it is unhealthy to even yawn. But otherwise you can read everywhere that yawning is very healthy and even oxygenizes the brain. And I personally think yawning is very calming and has a good anti-stress effect even if someone might lose a bit of Co2.

I reacted the same when I read this!
It is spontaneous, and same as breathing, you can use it voluntarily. Everybody knows it communicates between people! You can even try to make dogs yawn, and it works! I knew a girl who managed to remove the storm fright of her dog by yawning...
It really has an action on the parasympathetic system...

I would advise you to practise some awareness of when you sigh and yawn, sighing is not easy to notice though! Try to notice how you feel after, and remember how you felt before. Just felt sense awareness... it is personal, just notice. Also try to notice when you yawn, if you inhale or exhale more. The effect is not the same. When we cannot go over a stress, we can get repetitive half-finished yawns!

I appreciate how you rely on your feelings about your nervous system and stayed interrogative about this point.

Appart from this, I have never found anything wrong that I know about in Buteyko's method. We should let ourselves yawn, and it can be compensated by a longer pause. Easy. Also, yawns help to feel that breathe out is done with no effort. I have done a thread about a breathing exercise I invented, based on yawning.

 

[griesburner]

Appart from this, I have never found anything wrong that I know about in Buteyko's method. We should let ourselves yawn, and it can be compensated by a longer pause. Easy. Also, yawns help to feel that breathe out is done with no effort. I have done a thread about a breathing exercise I invented, based on yawning.

Yes im a big fan of yawning, too and i know how i can bring my dog to yawn with me haha

Yes maybe buteyko method is not bad but I am a person who easily take it to the extremes. When I first discovered buteyko i was impressed and it sounded so good to me that you can improve your health in so many ways only with controlling your breathing. But i got to a point where i was AFRAID of breathing too much (afraid of losing my good Co2), talking too much, etc. and that was stressfull to me. i coudnt find a good balance. And i got a mindset where Co2 was like my blood or something i didnt wanted to lose anymore cause it seemed to be the holy grail

 

[Kartoffel]

Yes Buteyko said it, or his followers transmit it. I read that if you want to yawn during a breathing exercise, you have to try your best and stop it!!!!
Yawning is not directly linked to being tired...

I and other persons trained about the ANS woould considere a mistake to stop any yawning. It is a SPONTANEOUS sign of change in the body. It helps the body sustain changes! That is why you have it when tired... A sigh is also the same sign of change... in general towards a paraS state, or it means you resist the change! Like when you try to stay awake! It is actually like a sort of decompression stop, like in diving. It helps the body to adapt. Do you see why you were confused about your experience? You cannot know this unless you learn it, but you can always see that it is logic when you know this.

Saying that yawning is connected to tiredness and a low energy state isn't incompatible with the theory that the body is attempting to balance things and reach a new illuminating. But thanks for illuminating my experience with your wisdom and teaching me logic. I can see you have learned a lot from your favorite tutor. Concerning your argument about bicarbonate excretion and panic attacks. You might not have said it, but this simplistic theory doesn't make any sense without further assumptions. Otherwise there would be no reason to assume why a person with high baseline Co2 should get an acute alkalosis more quickly than someone with normal or low CO2.