Prostate Tumor And Urinary Stream

Sheila

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374
Good day to you @bzmazu
Since this is the most current thread to mention Artemisinin, I will post here.
It is my current conclusion that Artemisinin works as a pleasant and gentle form of 'chemotherapy' removing immature and inappropriately multiplying white blood cells from the system through its ROS reaction with sequestered iron in those immature cells. Reduction of WBC 'overburden' obviously takes the strain off the system in various ways but I am yet to see how - other than 'strain removal' function which should not be underestimated - how it improves the fibrosis that affects bone marrow (and blood cell production) in these lowered energy states. So, metabolic improvement is also key to full recovery. I am sure this is no more than you have already concluded.

In many patients there is also lowered red blood cell production, lowered platelets and lowered haemoglobin (and therefore oxygen transport) as a result of changes to bone marrow through creeping fibrosis (a function of 'cold' metabolic conditions) and this might be exacerbated by lowering iron levels. I know that the suggestion is to take iron, in a non-toxic form (which?) to make some available to the body for its proper purposes but I am not sure how then this does not become available to the cancer cells as well which sort of defeats the objective. Do you have any information on this? Are there 'better' forms of iron? What am I missing?

In a related thread, @haidut said......."As Ray explained in a recent interview, what is officially called CLL is actually simply a symptom of high estrogen - high LDH, high serum copper, and high WBC." Which makes perfect sense when I look across my patients - the men often also have prostate issues, nocturnal frequency etc - AND together with oestrogen, I suspect high cortisol is in the picture there as well. Another issue here is also endotoxin and how one suppresses that also from keeping the whole shebang going. It is possible that in some way, Artemisinin works on that too, if it works on SIBO, but there has to be a limit on how much one can take without going through the therapeutic window and into toxicity. I have not seen large dose Vitamin K2 be that useful in CLL, sorry @haidut, although Vitamin K2 did improve RBC in some other patients with other chronic disease states. Why one lot and not the other, that is a question indeed.

A very long way of saying, if this tea and whole plant reduces enlarged prostate symptoms by targeting oestrogen/cortisol/endotoxin in some way that Artemisinin extract can not, then one is working on more than just prostate and it should be useful to CLL as well. The palate bitterness of the tea as a digestive stimulant might play a part here. And of course I can not rule out that removing iron is key to recovery in more than just CLL cancer states, hence Artemisinins apparent activity across other cancers and chronic disease states. The question is, what happens if iron becomes obviously low, to supplement, or not and how and are there any other ideas to encourage RBC production? I mention this here because Artemisinin might cause lower iron levels in those with non-bone marrow diseases with longer term use so this is probably relevant to all users.

Any thoughts dear man? Have you come across any reliable solutions?
Best regards
Sheila
 
B

Braveheart

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Hi Sheila,
You are way ahead of me on the technicalities. It is not recommended to add iron and larger doses of Art are also not recommended. My 200mg is more than enough for my body weight. (77kg). All my markers are good with the WBC count still dropping, now at 12,000...even though I was using the inexpensive Dr's Best brand...had me a little worried. I track my iron intake daily and never supplement...some days less than RDA but weekly average is 130% RDA. Had serious prostate issues before start of Peating/nettle/Art....now totally gone, though there has been a rise in PSA. This has me a little concerned, so back to studying. I am feeling great and believe my strict Peating is as important as the Art. Keeping cortisol, estrogen, prolactin down.

I have tried to communicate with Dr. Henry Lai, the discoverer of the Art/Leukemia connection. He is very reticent to talk about this all, but in the future I will keep my questions on Art. and not mention leukemia...medical politics? I sent him a study on use of the leaf extract and how it is very successful...the world is heading in that direction because the pure Art we are using is too expensive. Anyway, I have ordered some Artemisia extract and am going to combine with the Artemisinin...somehow?? haven't figured new protocol. Dr Lai said he takes Art for cancer prevention and thought combining the two was OK but would say nothing else...I will try to approach him differently w my questions. Lot of good new info here Sheila....we can use it.

Dried-leaf Artemisia annua: A practical malaria therapeutic for developing countries?

[email protected]

Hope this helps a little,
Warmest regards,
John
 
B

Braveheart

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Hello again Sheila...

You brought up some interesting points in your previous post. I don't have the answers but these might be good questions to put to Dr. Lai. There are also several doctors heavily involved with Artemisinin. What got my attention from the research into Artemisia extract were these points:

1... In healthy mice, artemisinin serum levels were > 40-fold greater in dried leaf fed mice than those fed with pure artemisinin. Human trial data showed that when delivered as dried leaves, 40-fold less artemisinin was required to obtain a therapeutic response compared to pure artemisinin.

2... In contrast to the oral consumption of pure artemisinin, we showed that the presence of plant material significantly enhanced appearance of artemisinin in the serum of healthy and Plasmodium chabaudi-infected mice[22]. Because of the plethora of mild antimalarial compounds naturally present in the dried leaves of the plant, we have termed this orally consumed dried leaf therapeutic plant-based artemisinin combination therapy, or pACT. These whole plant approaches are similar to the more than 2000 year traditional use of the plant by the Chinese[25]

3... Authors argued that since a single weekly dose was effective, compounds other than artemisinin may have played the prophylactic role since artemisinin itself has short plasma half-life.

4... Recently, Elfawal et al[23] measured parasitemia in mice infected with P. chabaudi that were fed two different doses (0.6 or 3.0 mg artemisinin; 24 and 120 mg/kg) of either pure artemisinin in mouse chow or as pACT. Artemisinin delivered via pACT was at least five times more effective, and with a longer lasting response, than pure artemisinin in reducing parasitemia. Excluding artemisinin there are > 600 phytochemicals that have been identified in Artemisia annua[35], but there is currently a lack of information on the chemistry, effect of the preparation method (harvesting, drying, storage, etc.), and overall bioavailability of these chemicals[36].

5... Diet is an important consideration for any orally delivered drug, and when Dien et al[48] compared artemisinin oral doses given with and without food, Cmax values were similar between subjects who fasted and those who did not. Food consumption along with artemisinin did not seem to affect artemisinin absorption. In contrast, a later rodent study by Weathers et al[21] observed that when artemisinin was consumed as part of a complex plant material, pACT, approximately 45-fold more drug entered the serum of mice than orally administered pure drug. Similarly, when pure artemisinin was fed to mice, it was not detectable in the serum after 60 min. However, artemisinin was detected in the serum when consumed in conjunction with mouse chow, which consists of a variety of plant materials including soy, oats, wheat, alfalfa, beet pulp, corn, etc[22].

6... Flavonoids are known to persist in the body for > 5 d; this may explain the once a week dose inducing a prophylactic effect from A. annua tea infusion that was reported by Ogwang et al[30,31]. Many dietary flavonoids inhibit Plasmodium growth in vitro, but amounts in the diets are reportedly insufficient to offer protection against malaria[54]. Plants such as A. annua with high concentrations of flavonoids (e.g., up to 0.6%) may, however, work in concert with artemisinin to prevent malaria when consumed regularly.

7... Evidence is mounting for the therapeutic efficacy of the use of dried leaves of A. annua, pACT, to treat malaria and possibly other diseases. The complex mixture of antiparasitic compounds in the plant seems to account for its therapeutic activity with animal and human trials supporting this claim. It is also clear that the cost of using pACT is a fraction of that for any other current or emerging antimalarial therapeutic. Likewise, the recent evidence of persistent and/or asymptomatic malaria suggests that a more prophylactic approach to malaria using pACT or even A. annua tea may be warranted. Considering that for > 2000 years this plant was used in traditional Chinese medicine for treatment of fever with no apparent appearance of artemisinin drug resistance, taken together the cumulative evidence argues for inclusion of pACT into the arsenal of drugs to combat malaria, and very likely, other diseases.

8... Artemisinin, extracted from the plant Artemisia annua (A. annua) L., and artemisinin derivatives are the current best antimalarial therapeutics and are delivered as artemisinin combination therapy (ACT). Availability and cost are problematic for the developing world where malaria is endemic. Oral consumption of A. annua dried leaves is more effective than the pure drug. A tea infusion of the leaves has prophylactic effects. Cost of producing and delivering the tea and A. annua dried leaf tablets is much more affordable than ACT.

So, for me, this means...the leaf extract is more effective and I will combine w the pure for now. There is a possibility of a longer half-life (rather than the 1.5 hour) which can help determine new dosing? Food consumption not so critical anymore, which also can give more flexible protocol. How I will approach this is still up in the air...the pure Artemisinin will still be part of my regimen. Look forward to your comments...unfortunately no comments re iron...maybe that is good.
 

Base Ball

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Messages
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@gilson dantas How are you doing? I've already told you my opinion but I do admire your insistence on not allowing the docs to make you worse. I'll a true story I watched play out with my own eyes. About 25 years ago there was a guy that lived next door to my mom and dad. He was 70 at the time and was diagnosed with a very aggressive form of colon cancer. Docs told him he had 6 months to live if he did nothing, and a little over a year with chemo and radiation. He took one treatment, then told them to shove it. This guy was wealthy enough he could have traveled anywhere in the world for any kind of treatment. Instead, he did absolutely nothing. And I mean really nothing, no aspirin, nothing. He just lived his life. Docs told him he was crazy. As time went by whenever I went to visit my parents I would see him working around his house, and I'd go ask him how he was doing. He'd say well it's spread to this place or that place, but he always felt fine. It finally got him 10 years later as he died peacefully in his sleep at home. But during those 10 years he watched the deaths of all his doctors and he traveled the world having a nice time. The first time I read Peat's Cancer Matrix I thought of this guy. He definitely did not "fertilize" his cancer field with medical treatments.

Also have you seen this particular article? It's an interesting theory but it fits with a lot of what Peat writes about. Vitamin K: the missing link to prostate health. - PubMed - NCBI
 

tankasnowgod

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Good day to you @bzmazu
In many patients there is also lowered red blood cell production, lowered platelets and lowered haemoglobin (and therefore oxygen transport) as a result of changes to bone marrow through creeping fibrosis (a function of 'cold' metabolic conditions) and this might be exacerbated by lowering iron levels. I know that the suggestion is to take iron, in a non-toxic form (which?) to make some available to the body for its proper purposes but I am not sure how then this does not become available to the cancer cells as well which sort of defeats the objective. Do you have any information on this? Are there 'better' forms of iron? What am I missing?

Iron itself is a potent carcinogen, and body stores are likely high in those with cancer (especially older men). I wouldn't think ANY sort of iron supplement would be advisable to a cancer patient, and I certainly wouldn't supplement without a full iron panel showing both low TSAT and ferritin (thinking less than 15% and 10). Several of the B vitamins (like folate, B6 and B12) can help stimulate red blood cell production, but there are some lines of evidence that suggest excess folate and B12 can spur cancer development. In a case with low red blood cells and cancer, I think the best solution would actually be transfusions along with iron chelators.

If hemoglobin isn't low, I would think phlebotomy (or other iron lowering protocols) would be worth looking into.
 

Sheila

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Nov 6, 2014
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374
Good morning Bzmazu, thank you for your insights my friend, I will research further as I am much in favour of the whole plant approach. Congratulations to you on your continuing success.

@gilson dantas, Dear Sir, I am sorry to have hijacked your thread and I trust you are going OK. I have been thinking of what might assist rapidly with , even though I do not know your context, but you require rapid reduction in cellular swelling as I understand it. Cellular proliferation may be lowered by Artemisia sp. per Bzmazu's suggestions, in my experience it is most helpful, but where oestrogen is really high, its effects may be slower acting. (For this conclusion I have compared my male and female clientelle's response, men are definitely quicker to respond.) Now, I was thinking, if you are by the sea, immersion in the sea might be akin to a salt bath. In my oestrogenic females, the use of salt reduces PMS symptoms which appear to be down to excess oestrogen and certainly reduce inappropriate tissue swelling, body wide. Thus, if your situation is oestrogen-driven, a salt bath (the sea) or a saturated salt bath (sitz bath) might give you some tactical relief. I have had success with bringing down swollen joints with strong salt baths per one of Dr Peat's newsletters of long ago and I know it works on oestrogen-influenced soft tissue. You may be taking sufficient salt, for you internally, but it could be that skin absorption near the problematic area will help further. The German/Austrians were very fond of their sitz baths and found them very effective for lower body problems across the board, makes sense. As we know, when excess tissue 'water' is removed, functionality returns. Other suggestions for swelling reduction might be pharmaceutical grade urea (strongly diuretic) but I do not know effective quantities - Dr Peat has suggestions on this somewhere I think orally, please search. My best to you, if I think of anything else tactical, I will be back to you.

@tankasnowgod, Dear Horseman, I agree entirely...lowered RBC in these cases is most likely due to bone marrow fibrosis, I was merely questioning some (off board) suggestions to use iron with Artemisinin but could not see the logic and wondered if I was missing something. Agreed on full iron panels, which will also be done. And even those need careful interpretation as Dr Peat has intimated. Thank you for your suggestions, I appreciate them.

Sincerely,
Sheila
 
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gilson dantas

gilson dantas

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you require rapid reduction in cellular swelling as I understand it.
Yes @Sheila, exactly. And I have little success.
I´m using Artemisia annua [1 g whole plant twice by day], progesterone high dose every day, phosphoethanolamine;
saturated salt bath (sitz bath) might give you some tactical relief.
Very good idea. I´ll try it.
Other suggestions for swelling reduction might be pharmaceutical grade urea
Yes: here the problem is to find how to use, dose etc.
I´ll use nutmeg and lidocaine [topic] some day.
I´m searching ideas at this moment, because the strangling still there; surgery only as last option; the great advantage is that this week the urinary flow it is not worse; not better, but also not worse;
And before anything else: thank you.
 

Giraffe

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here the problem is to find how to use, dose etc.

RP: I think it requires taking quite a bit more than 15 grams [urea] per day. Some of the studies were using up to a 120 grams per day divided up in doses of about 15 grams at a time.
...
HD: So you are saying up to 120 g a day?
RP: Yah, for getting rid of excess water. That was the amount they use.
In the beginning they were talking about cancer.
....

According to the study attached here, 1.5 g/kg bodyweight was used in the treatment of glaucoma.
....

Urea is also used to treat hyponatremia due to salt wasting. This is regularly seen in cancer patients. The dosage used here was 15-30 g 3-4 times per day (= up to 120 g).
 
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Sheila

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Dear Gilson Dantas, I hope some immersion works for you, I think external options like this are long underused because they're not so easy as oral routes. In case I was not clear, 'a saturated' salt bath is one into which no more (in this case) salt (NaCl) will dissolve. Solubility will also depend on temperature of the water, more will dissolve with higher temperature. I would personally use 'reasonably warm' because my studies into hyperthermia techniques suggest to me that too hot can cause unwanted tissue stress, as can cold in a different manner. Alternating warm and cold may have merit (and was much favoured historically for improved blood flow) but you want, I think, to avoid shock in any way. And when you feel the need to get out of the bath, do so. In my experience frequency of something is more useful than duration and people tend to think that more = better. This has not been my experience. I also think that a saturated bath is good for more than just one immersion so hopefully the cost will not be prohibitive and very little is going to grow in a strong salt solution if you keep topping it up (within reason). I trust this is not telling you the obvious and will be most interested in what you find. I suspect you will need multiple immersions and I wish you good luck in your experiments.

@Giraffe, you are an angel. Thank you so much for finding this. I had a patient who used, I think, 5g 3x a day (orally) but found it a bit much and had to work up very slowly. But given your study more is clearly possible. I suspect external would also work but at the purity that would be sensible for a bath (as opposed to agricultural grade urea) it would, I think, be cost prohibitive.

Best regards
Sheila
 

Base Ball

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@Sheila

Your immersion explanation is very interesting. Thanks for sharing. I hope it helps Gilson and I will probably use that too in order to prevent any further swelling in that area.
 

HLP

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Very interesting ideas and support on this thread. Good to hear things aren't worse this week.
 

Sol

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Jun 16, 2014
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Gilson, One thing you might think about if you do wind up with any sort of surgery is to use about 800 mg of cimetidine for awhile. (Tagamet) It inhibits T suppressor cells which are pretty high after any operation. The inhibition of those cells should help your immune system slow down or stop the spread cancer that can happen after any major surgery.
@Base Ball Would this be before or after the surgery? How many days at 800 mg? I'd appreciate it if you can give some details about it.
@gilson dantas We can buy Tagamet in Brazil, I just called a drugstore to confirm, it's OTC.
 

Base Ball

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Hi Sol,

Maybe both, but I'm not sure. I believe one of these articles talks about 2 different doses that have been tried, one a week or so of cimetidine prior to surgery, and the other for up to a year after. Cimetidine does inhibit the clearance of creatinine in some people (see 3rd link, 4th bullet down in the Interactions section). I don't think I'd go up to a year on it. But I do think it makes sense to take 600-800 mg for a few months stating about a week before surgery and then continue until you would be completely recovered from whatever surgery you might have had. The benefit seems to be that it prevents the suppression of the immune system (at least partially) by surgery. I'm not sure if other H2 antagonists would work, but I haven't looked into that very closely either. Plus, I'm not entirely sure either that the H2 antagonism is the reason for the suppression of the T reg cells. There may be more to it than that.

Repurposing drugs in oncology (ReDO)—cimetidine as an anti-cancer agent
Cimetidine: A Common Heartburn Remedy Complements Conventional Cancer Therapy - Life Extension
Cimetidine - Wikipedia
 

Sol

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Jun 16, 2014
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This is awesome, Base Ball, you're very kind to share this information. Thank you so much!
 

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