Berberine

[Tarmander]

Had this riveting interaction with Peat and wanted to add his wisdom to this epic thread from long ago:

 

[yerrag]

I looked up berberine with Activeherb, which sells TCM supplements.

There's the pure extract form (Huang Lian (Coptis Rhizome, Rhizoma Coptidis, 黄连)) and the blend, which incorporates it with 16 other herbs (Huang Lian Shang Qing Pian (CoptisClear™)).

If you were me, which would you go for?

I'm interested in berberine for its use to inhibit DPP4 (human dipeptidyl peptidase-4), which a periodontal bacteria, P. Gingivalis, produces.

Periodontal bacteria, by its dipeptidyl peptidase production, can cause or aggravate type II diabetes, by disturbing the homeostasis in blood sugar regulation; Degradation of Incretins and Modulation of Blood Glucose Levels by Periodontopathic Bacterial Dipeptidyl Peptidase 4

Just this last 6 months, I gained a lot of weight hecause my periodontal bacteria increased and I believe it is the effect periodontal bacteria (a sudden one-time release of large quantities- proteolyti enzyme lysing plaque and releasing a large load of hitherto dormant bacteria from my network of blood vessels) had by way of dipeptidyl peptide action.

So berberine would be useful in inhibiting this action and restore the homeostatis in blood sugar regulation that I had early this year.

 

[Tarmander]

I looked up berberine with Activeherb, which sells TCM supplements.

There's the pure extract form (Huang Lian (Coptis Rhizome, Rhizoma Coptidis, 黄连)) and the blend, which incorporates it with 16 other herbs (Huang Lian Shang Qing Pian (CoptisClear™)).

If you were me, which would you go for?

blend...if it works you can always try berberine by itself to see if that was the only thing helping...if you try just the berberine by itself...you'll always wonder

 

[yerrag]

blend...if it works you can always try berberine by itself to see if that was the only thing helping...if you try just the berberine by itself...you'll always wonder

Thanks for the advice!

 

[Lejeboca]

I looked up berberine with Activeherb, which sells TCM supplements.

There's the pure extract form (Huang Lian (Coptis Rhizome, Rhizoma Coptidis, 黄连)) and the blend, which incorporates it with 16 other herbs (Huang Lian Shang Qing Pian (CoptisClear™)).

If you were me, which would you go for?

I'm interested in berberine for its use to inhibit DPP4 (human dipeptidyl peptidase-4), which a periodontal bacteria, P. Gingivalis, produces.

Periodontal bacteria, by its dipeptidyl peptidase production, can cause or aggravate type II diabetes, by disturbing the homeostasis in blood sugar regulation; Degradation of Incretins and Modulation of Blood Glucose Levels by Periodontopathic Bacterial Dipeptidyl Peptidase 4

Just this last 6 months, I gained a lot of weight hecause my periodontal bacteria increased and I believe it is the effect periodontal bacteria (a sudden one-time release of large quantities- proteolyti enzyme lysing plaque and releasing a large load of hitherto dormant bacteria from my network of blood vessels) had by way of dipeptidyl peptide action.

So berberine would be useful in inhibiting this action and restore the homeostatis in blood sugar regulation that I had early this year.

I go for a single herb, when I know a specific condition I need to address qnd can think of herb (compound) for it.
I'd go for a mix if I can detect a general tissue state of health (such as heat, dempness, fire, or wind) that need to be addressed. Many herbs may be specific for the latter and they synergize in a formula.

I've looked up the links you've provided for the remedies. The single herb said to be for dampness while the formula for wind (the heat and fire being the same for the two).

 

[yerrag]

I go for a single herb, when I know a specific condition I need to address qnd can think of herb (compound) for it.
I'd go for a mix if I can detect a general tissue state of health (such as heat, dempness, fire, or wind) that need to be addressed. Many herbs may be specific for the latter and they synergize in a formula.

I've looked up the links you've provided for the remedies. The single herb said to be for dampness while the formula for wind (the heat and fire being the same for the two).

I have a hard time relating to the concepts of dampness, wind etc. to my condition. What I like about berberine is that it's a dpp-4 inhibitor, and instead of taking pharma drugs, this is a natural substance I can take.

I may order one of each (pure and blend) so I can try each of them. Thanks.

 

[yerrag]

I ordered a 100g of the Huang Lian (Coptis Rhizome) from Activerherb, but before I ordered this I bought a 25g quantity from Bulksupplements.

I'm using up the Bulksupplements berberine at 2x500mg/day but I'm increasing it to 3x500mg.

It was hard to take in the powder. I first mixed it in a quarter cup of water and drank it. It was hard to make it mix well, and I find myself having to add water to the cup for a second portion in order not to waste what's left over. Still, there's powder left.

I ended up mixing the berberine with a tsp of sugar just to keep the berberine from clumping up, and when well mixed, I'd pour in honey so that it becomes a paste. Then I'd pour hot water to make a half cup, and when the water is cool enough for me to tolerate, I'll drink the mixture. The sweetness helps me take in the bitterness. I'll then rinse the cup and drink the rinse. Then I'll follow with a hot cup of black tea.

I'm monitoring my blood sugar, taking it at 5 pm weekly, just to see how my blood sugar improves. Last Feb 4, my blood sugar was 102 (based on lunch ending at 1 pm with no snacks). I'm hoping to see my blood sugar go down to 80-85, which was what I used to be at until about 10 months ago. I had piled on weight since losing that nice fasting blood sugar value.

 

[Lejeboca]

I ordered a 100g of the Huang Lian (Coptis Rhizome) from Activerherb, but before I ordered this I bought a 25g quantity from Bulksupplements.

I'm using up the Bulksupplements berberine at 2x500mg/day but I'm increasing it to 3x500mg.

It was hard to take in the powder. I first mixed it in a quarter cup of water and drank it. It was hard to make it mix well, and I find myself having to add water to the cup for a second portion in order not to waste what's left over. Still, there's powder left.

I ended up mixing the berberine with a tsp of sugar just to keep the berberine from clumping up, and when well mixed, I'd pour in honey so that it becomes a paste. Then I'd pour hot water to make a half cup, and when the water is cool enough for me to tolerate, I'll drink the mixture. The sweetness helps me take in the bitterness. I'll then rinse the cup and drink the rinse. Then I'll follow with a hot cup of black tea.

I'm monitoring my blood sugar, taking it at 5 pm weekly, just to see how my blood sugar improves. Last Feb 4, my blood sugar was 102 (based on lunch ending at 1 pm with no snacks). I'm hoping to see my blood sugar go down to 80-85, which was what I used to be at until about 10 months ago. I had piled on weight since losing that nice fasting blood sugar value.

perhaps, filling in the gelatin capsules with the powder would be a convenient way to take the exact amounts without waste or tasting much of bitterness?

 

[yerrag]

perhaps, filling in the gelatin capsules with the powder would be a convenient way to take the exact amounts without waste or tasting much of bitterness?

You're right. That's one thing I could do, but I find it faster to mix the berberine into a paste, and drink the paste dissolved in water. I still get some bitter taste from it, but if it become a chore for me, that could spur me to get a capsule machine.

 

[Lokzo]

You're right. That's one thing I could do, but I find it faster to mix the berberine into a paste, and drink the paste dissolved in water. I still get some bitter taste from it, but if it become a chore for me, that could spur me to get a capsule machine.

Please keep us updated on your blood test results!

 

[Vinny]

Please keep us updated on your blood test results!

 

[yerrag]

ordered a 100g of the Huang Lian (Coptis Rhizome) from Activerherb, but before I ordered this I bought a 25g quantity from Bulksupplements.

I'm using up the Bulksupplements berberine at 2x500mg/day but I'm increasing it to 3x500mg.

It was hard to take in the powder. I first mixed it in a quarter cup of water and drank it. It was hard to make it mix well, and I find myself having to add water to the cup for a second portion in order not to waste what's left over. Still, there's powder left.

I ended up mixing the berberine with a tsp of sugar just to keep the berberine from clumping up, and when well mixed, I'd pour in honey so that it becomes a paste. Then I'd pour hot water to make a half cup, and when the water is cool enough for me to tolerate, I'll drink the mixture. The sweetness helps me take in the bitterness. I'll then rinse the cup and drink the rinse. Then I'll follow with a hot cup of black tea.

I started using the Huang Lian of Activeherb just now. Compared to the berberine from Bulksupplements, it looked, weighed, and tasted differently. The berberine from Bulksupplements is a dense powder which has a highly saturated yellow color. The Huang Lian comes comes in small granules, is brown in color, and isn't very dense. As stated in the label, it is a 5:1 concentrate granule.

I'm assuming that @Tarmander 's dosage, as stated in his podcast, of 3 x 500 mg (maximum) is based on that of the form of Bulksupplements (correct me if I'm wrong, Tarmander). The Huang Lian dosage is stated as from 1 x 1000mg to 3 x 1000mg daily. In effect, I could take twice the amount of Huang Lian from Activeherbs as compared to the berberine from Bulksupplements.

I am to think that Bulksupplements' product is more concentrated than that of Activeherb's. For one, it is very bitter, whereas that of Activerb's has a pleasant taste that doesn't make it necessary for it to be put in capsules to be spared of the bitter taste. The product label says the Huang Lian is a 5:1 concentrate granule, made in such way:

...herbs are first thoroughly cleaned, then mixed together and extracted in water in a steel extraction tank. This process follows the ancient practice of decocting Chinese herbs in a pot, but allows precise control over the extracting temperature and time. The modern extraction process reproduces the traditional method to recover active ingredients, but has been shown to yield a superior degree of potency. Essential oils, which typically evaporate from the herbs during heating, are automatically recovered through the extraction process. After extraction, herb residues are discarded while the extraction liquid is recovered and pumped into a condenser. Here, the remaining water is evaporated, leaving a highly concentrated paste. This paste is turned into tablets or teapills by adding a small amount of dry powdered herbs from the original herbal formula. In this way, we avoid the use of unnecessary binders and ensure the purity of our products.

It's a good thing that I ordered these two items to compare. Sight unseen, I would have thought the Huang Lian is more concentrated than Bulksupplement's product, given that it says it is a 5:1 concentrate, but the difference in bitterness says othewise, as Bulksupplement's product is much more bitter. I wrongly assumed that the 5:1 concentrate meant that the Huang Lian is 5x more concentrated than that of Bulksupplement's product, but in reality the 5:1 concentration is relative to other extracts of huang lian made by other (not all) makers of Chinese herbal extracts.

This does not necessarily mean that the berberine from Bulksupplements is better in terms of potency though. There must be a good reason the herbs are extracted and then put in pill form, other than just for better taste. I'd have to try out the Huang Lian pill to see if there is any difference in efficacy. But I doubt I would really know, as I've used Bulksupp's berberine for the past 10 days already, and the effects could just be kicking in now, or not at all.

I'm monitoring my blood sugar, taking it at 5 pm weekly, just to see how my blood sugar improves. Last Feb 4, my blood sugar was 102 (based on lunch ending at 1 pm with no snacks). I'm hoping to see my blood sugar go down to 80-85, which was what I used to be at until about 10 months ago. I had piled on weight since losing that nice fasting blood sugar value.

I'll take my blood sugar later at 5 pm, and I'll find out how it's improved from last time. It's not the best way to compare, but at least it gives me an idea. I'll have to not eat anything after lunch, and that would be easy. Berberine is supposed to help lower blood sugar, among other things.

 

[yerrag]

'm monitoring my blood sugar, taking it at 5 pm weekly, just to see how my blood sugar improves. Last Feb 4, my blood sugar was 102 (based on lunch ending at 1 pm with no snacks). I'm hoping to see my blood sugar go down to 80-85, which was what I used to be at until about 10 months ago. I had piled on weight since losing that nice fasting blood sugar value.

This is bad. I took my blood glucose today, Feb 11, at 5 pm. The blood glucose was higher, at 109. Today, my weight is 166 lbs. I'm neither gaining nor losing weight.

Will see how I do on the Huang Lian berberine from Activeherbs. Will report back in a week.

 

[Tarmander]

I'm assuming that @Tarmander 's dosage, as stated in his podcast, of 3 x 500 mg (maximum) is based on that of the form of Bulksupplements

correct. The pure stuff, the terribly bitter stuff

 

[yerrag]

correct. The pure stuff, the terribly bitter stuff

I've been taking 3 grams of the Huang Lian extract each day., as that was the recommended dosage that came with the bottle

I looked again at its description:

Extract granules at 5x concentration 100 g (3.53 oz), equal to 500 g (1.1 lb) dried herb.

If so, I'm taken the equivalent of 5g of berberine each time, for a total of 15g each day. For that much of berberine, it sure isn't hard to take, as it's an extract with some maltodextrin at 85:15.

 

[Tarmander]

I've been taking 3 grams of the Huang Lian extract each day., as that was the recommended dosage that came with the bottle

I looked again at its description:

Extract granules at 5x concentration 100 g (3.53 oz), equal to 500 g (1.1 lb) dried herb.

If so, I'm taken the equivalent of 5g of berberine each time, for a total of 15g each day. For that much of berberine, it sure isn't hard to take, as it's an extract with some maltodextrin at 85:15.

that seems like a lot. guts doing okay?

if dried herb = goldenseal then its fine

but if dried herb = extracted berberine then that is a crap ton

 

[yerrag]

Now that I know how much it is I'm taking, I might start not taking to it well.

But I was taking it for a week, and I was fine not knowing it lol.

I'll know tomorrow if it improved my 3 hour after meal glucose numbers. It was 108 last last, after a week of berberine at 3 x 500mg daily.

I seem to be feeling less hungry though and being more alert though. I don't know, but maybe 3 x5g of berberine each day would be nasty, but 3 x 1g of the extract would be manageable, and the extraction process enables the dosage that would work for me.

 

[Lokzo]

Now that I know how much it is I'm taking, I might start not taking to it well.

But I was taking it for a week, and I was fine not knowing it lol.

I'll know tomorrow if it improved my 3 hour after meal glucose numbers. It was 108 last last, after a week of berberine at 3 x 500mg daily.

I seem to be feeling less hungry though and being more alert though. I don't know, but maybe 3 x5g of berberine each day would be nasty, but 3 x 1g of the extract would be manageable, and the extraction process enables the dosage that would work for me.

You're more alert because berberine raises noradrenaline levels!!

 

[yerrag]

You're more alert because berberine raises noradrenaline levels!!

You're more alert because berberine raises noradrenaline levels!!

But is that due to berberine lowering blood sugar levels? But my blood sugar levels would have to be low enough to trigger adrenaline to be secreted? But this is something I don't really understand--the difference between not adrenaline and adrenaline.

 

[Lokzo]

But is that due to berberine lowering blood sugar levels? But my blood sugar levels would have to be low enough to trigger adrenaline to be secreted? But this is something I don't really understand--the difference between not adrenaline and adrenaline.

More due to the fact that it can raise noradrenaline via MAO-A inhibition and there's studies showing it can raise whole-brain noradrenaline levels.