Berberine

Sheila

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Currently using mild dose Baptisia tinctoria as an anti-microbial, antiseptic, gut cleaner rather than the tetracycline route (ease of purchase/ease of use for now). It also has mild anxiolytic properties thought to be via its cytisine content, cytisine being a partial agonist of nicotine acetylcholine receptors https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cytisine . Its effects have some similarities with Barberry et al but on reflection Barberry might be a better bet as, whilst sharing all of these antimicrobial effects, it is specifically anti-inflammatory and that seems to be foundational wrt energy provision.

As a general rule I personally wouldn't use extracts over the whole herb, but maybe I am merely old school. I think there is something to be said for the synergy, perhaps magic, of whole plant medicine. It could also be wishful thinking. Most of these herbs ARE toxic in higher doses, as are many things, and nature readily points this out with the purgative and cathartic effects of too much too quickly, not to mention the early warnings from taste - unless you have a encapsulated extract and bypass that warning as Moss pointed out more eloquently.

I read the studies here on extracted berberine and that the method of administration affected some of the results, particularly with respect to potential muscle atrophy. Again these trials may not represent how these herbs were intended for use and thus the conflicting results obtained. I would suggest short term use of a whole plant tincture (a month perhaps) then month off to review, then a month on again as your observations/conclusions dictate. Most of the berberine family of herbs have strong effects on liver and gut integrity and thereby inflammation and that fits with their multiple symptom/organ system claimed effect profile.

Reducing gut inflammation, by multiple routes, seems to impact health comprehensively, so I think there is room for careful experimentation with the Berberis family and if that is positive, then perhaps trial combined with a high quality extract, short term. I have personally trialled most of them in the past - though not with the understandings I do now - and they were reliable anti-microbial, gut integrity (and in general mucous membrane) strengtheners.

Just some thoughts.
Sheila
 
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Years ago, I was "prescribed" some (over-priced) practitioner's strength berberine which I was required to purchase through my Naturopathic Doctor's dispensary.

It made me feel positively wretched. The instructions were to take on an empty stomach, but it dropped my blood sugar so far and so fast that I instantly became nauseated, followed by an immediate headache. Dry heaves would surely ensue without juice....so yeah, berberine if you're into hypoglycemia.

Of course those were the days when I had (make-believe) Candida. I was very overweight and pre-diabetic. I couldn't even finish one bottle it was so strong, so maybe if I would have stuck with it it long enough...

On the other hand, my kid caught pink eye when he was a toddler. I used a glycerine based tincture of goldenseal (berberine) topically, instead of antibiotics and it worked PERFECTLY and spared his gut flora.
 

DaveFoster

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Great post. I used to want to try berberine in my keto days, as it lowers insulin in a manner similar to metformin.

Those were the days. Insulin = fat gain. Should've known.
 

moss

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Years ago, I was "prescribed" some (over-priced) practitioner's strength berberine which I was required to purchase through my Naturopathic Doctor's dispensary.

That makes my blood boil!

It made me feel positively wretched. The instructions were to take on an empty stomach, but it dropped my blood sugar so far and so fast that I instantly became nauseated, followed by an immediate headache. Dry heaves would surely ensue without juice....so yeah, berberine if you're into hypoglycemia.

Of course those were the days when I had (make-believe) Candida. I was very overweight and pre-diabetic. I couldn't even finish one bottle it was so strong, so maybe if I would have stuck with it it long enough...

And this also does my head in - sorry to hear you had that response.

Herbs containing Berberine should be used cautiously as they contain alkaloids such as Berberis vulgaris, Oregon Grape and Goldenseal and must be used in correct dosages, even drop doses, depending on the herb used.
Too high a dose and it will upset bile/liver and make one feel nauseous and bilious at the very least.
Context is everything and given the response you had suggests dosage may have been to blame.

On the other hand, my kid caught pink eye when he was a toddler. I used a glycerine based tincture of goldenseal (berberine) topically, instead of antibiotics and it worked PERFECTLY and spared his gut flora.

Excellent and Calendula added to that combination also works a treat. Your kids are lucky and you are an inspiration BP....
 
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Herbs containing Berberine should be used cautiously as they contain alkaloids such as Berberis vulgaris, Oregon Grape and Goldenseal and must be used in correct dosages, even drop doses, depending on the herb used.
Too high a dose and it will upset bile/liver and make one feel nauseous and bilious at the very least.
Context is everything and given the response you had suggests dosage may have been to blame.

Hi moss,

AGREED!!! Context IS everything. This was a powerful lesson for me in that I realized many naturopathic doctors are really no different from mainstream docs. They don't really listen, quickly hand out over-priced "prescriptions" to treat symptoms (very similar to pharmaceuticals) and don't really address root causes such as a profound lack of B vitamins, major mineral deficiency and fat soluble vitamin deficits due to chronic gut issues.

The other silver lining (cuz there's ALWAYS lessons for me) was that this is when I began to realize that gut flora imbalance had a lot to do with blood sugar control.

Herbs are wonderful medicine, truly a gift from nature. I learned that I'm much better off by educating myself about them and experimenting cautiously.
 
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I'm thinking of trying out Berberine for mood stabilization, to boost dopamine and lower serotonin. Anyone here still taking it? I'd like to hear your opinion on it.
 

Lejeboca

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I'm thinking of trying out Berberine for mood stabilization, to boost dopamine and lower serotonin. Anyone here still taking it? I'd like to hear your opinion on it.

I am not taking berberine. But I wouldn't take it for mood stabilization because, in part, of its increase of serotonin:

Berberis Vulgaris and Berberine: An Update Review. - PubMed - NCBI
"Berberine inhibits the immobility period in mice in both
tail-suspension and forced swim tests and following its
acute administration has resulted in increased levels of
dopamine (31%), norepinephrine (31%), and serotonin
(47%) in the whole brain of mice
. The antidepressant-
like effect of berberine in forced swim test has been
inhibited by pretreatment with l-arginine or sildenafil.
Therefore, it can be concluded that berberine exerts
antidepressant-like effect in mice probably via modulat-
ing brain biogenic amines (serotonin, norepinephrine,
and dopamine) and nitric oxide pathway (Kulkarni
and Dhir, 2008). In another study, it has been shown
that berberine is a substrate and also an inhibitor of
OCT2 and OCT3, and its inhibition on OCT2-mediated
and OCT3-mediated NE and 5-HT uptake may contrib-
ute to the increased monoamine concentration in mouse
brain (Sun et al., 2014)"

(Sun et al., 2014) Sun S, Wang K, Lei H, et al. 2014. Inhibition of organic cation transporter 2 and 3 may be involved in the mechanism of the
antidepressant-like action of berberine. Prog Neuropsychopharmacol Biol Psychiatry 49: 1–6.
 

nikkmm

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This is interesting. I came across an herb called Mulungu from Brazil (Erythrina mulungu) said to be calming like kava kava. I got my hands on a tincture and I must say it helps with sleep. But in reading about it here: Tropical Plant Database entry for: Mulungu - Erythrina mulungu, Mulungu cristi-galli it says that it has many isoquinoline alkaloids, just like berberine. And I'm not so sure if isoquinoline is a good substance to be ingesting. If the fluoroquinolones are not recommended (cipro, levo) perhaps a natural isoquinolone should not be either?
 

griesburner

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the things i read here about berberin sound good and i ordered some to try it out for myself. bit a few studys i found doesnt sound so good to me.

Mitochondria and NMDA Receptor-Dependent Toxicity of Berberine Sensitizes Neurons to Glutamate and Rotenone Injury

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/18599498

Berberine Promotes Glucose Consumption Independently of AMP-Activated Protein Kinase Activation

"These results suggest that berberine and metformin promote glucose metabolism by stimulating glycolysis, which probably results from inhibition of mitochondrial respiratory chain complex I, independent of AMPK activation."

science/article/pii/S2211383512000871

"Its insulin-independent hypoglycemic effect is related to inhibition of mitochondrial function, stimulation of glycolysis and activation of AMPK pathway"


now i am a bit afraid to take it. increased glycolysis and inhibition of mitochondrial function doesnt sound good :/
 

Frankdee20

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I always get Berberine confused with Bulbine (for Testosterone).
 

PecosRiver

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PecosRiver

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The study I referred to in my last post shakes my confidence in the Peat philosophy - they compare rat prostates for 1. control, 2. injected with only testosterone proprianate (TP), 3. TP plus Berberine, and 4. TP plus finasteride. As much as we here in this forum love to hate finasteride, the table that shows the prostate weights is very telling. The (3) weight was almost half of (2), and (4) was almost half of (3). Surprise - finasteride is even better at inhibiting 5ar than Berberine!

If Peat is right - how to interpret these 'positive' results?

It would be helpful if there were a way to add in a 5th component: TP plus a strong AI to prevent the TP from being converted to estradiol which is the prevailing theory on this forum as to why just increasing testosterone causes prostate problems. @haidut - comments please?
 

PecosRiver

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I'm really trying to understand this study. If the 5ar inhibition prevents the TP from converting to DHT, we could assume that without an AI that some or most of it gets converted to estradiol. Which should make the prostate bigger with worse symptoms and higher PSA. But that is not what the study shows. I know there is a strong consensus on this forum that increasing dht doesn't cause prostate problems - so please help me understand this. I feel like I need a Peat re-education camp.
 
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The study I referred to in my last post shakes my confidence in the Peat philosophy - they compare rat prostates for 1. control, 2. injected with only testosterone proprianate (TP), 3. TP plus Berberine, and 4. TP plus finasteride. As much as we here in this forum love to hate finasteride, the table that shows the prostate weights is very telling. The (3) weight was almost half of (2), and (4) was almost half of (3). Surprise - finasteride is even better at inhibiting 5ar than Berberine!

If Peat is right - how to interpret these 'positive' results?

It would be helpful if there were a way to add in a 5th component: TP plus a strong AI to prevent the TP from being converted to estradiol which is the prevailing theory on this forum as to why just increasing testosterone causes prostate problems. @haidut - comments please?
I think, DHT can grow tissue of the prostate, but the real problems come from estrogens and/or DHT metabolites that bind to ER, like ,17β-diol.
So a study that blocks DHT can indeed be shown to reduce prostate growth coz it will lower 3a diol, but does not give total picture.

Yes Aromatase Inhibitor will help prevent conversion of T into estradiol and can help prevent prostate tumor. Aromatase is expressed in normal prostate cells.

"In nonmalignant prostate tissues, aromatase mRNA expression was absent from epithelium, but did localize to stroma. Presence of protein was confirmed, and expression was driven by promoter PII. Aromatase was expressed and active in LNCaP, PC3, and DU145 cells in addition to microdissected epithelial tumor cells; benign prostate epithelial cells showed no expression or activity. source"
 

PecosRiver

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Thanks GO. I thought more about this last night. The big plus for Berberine is its PDE5 antagonism. What if any is the relation of PDE5 antagonism to Aromatase Inhibition? There are a class of AI's out there that also block 5AR. White button mushrooms are an example of a strong AI and a weak 5ar blocker. Could Berberine considered something like this? That its prostate benefits don't come from the 5ar blocking but from the prevention of Test conversion to estradiol? Or somehow related to keeping cAMP high?

There is so much to learn here - more insights from more knowledgeable folks greatly appreciated.
 
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What if any is the relation of PDE5 antagonism to Aromatase Inhibition?
There seems to be cases were PDE5 inhibitors can inhibit or stimulate [modulate] aromatase expression. link:
Our results demonstrate that PDE5 is expressed in human visceral adipocytes and that acute exposure to PDE5i selectively stimulates ARO expression, which is related to a specific PDE5 blockade.We speculate that modulation of ARO activity by PDE5i could be one of the mechanisms responsible, at least in part, for the beneficial effects of PDE5i on endothelial and metabolic functions.

and link:
Finally, a recent report by Baravalle et al. [97] used molecular and cell level analytics to show that PDE5 inhibition also acts to inhibit aromatase, an important target in breast cancer. Sildenafil was found to act as a partial inhibitor of human aromatase, with a maximal inhibition of around 35%.

...
There are a class of AI's out there that also block 5AR. White button mushrooms are an example of a strong AI and a weak 5ar blocker. Could Berberine considered something like this? That its prostate benefits don't come from the 5ar blocking but from the prevention of Test conversion to estradiol? Or somehow related to keeping cAMP high?
There's some evidence that Berberine is an aromatase inhibitor, and an upregulator of androgen steroid enzymes. but I cant find how strong AI it actually is:

...The single treatment of berberine up-regulated the expression of testicular CYP17, 3β-HSD and 17β-HSD1 mRNA. ... -source

Due to interactions with CYP3A4 (inhibition of which may increase testosterone) and CYP1A2 (Aromatase),[49] it is theoretical that Berberine may increase circulating testosterone levels; this is currently untested in living systems. -source
 

griesburner

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There's some evidence that Berberine is an aromatase inhibitor, and an upregulator of androgen steroid enzymes. but I cant find how strong AI it actually is:

...The single treatment of berberine up-regulated the expression of testicular CYP17, 3β-HSD and 17β-HSD1 mRNA. ... -source

Due to interactions with CYP3A4 (inhibition of which may increase testosterone) and CYP1A2 (Aromatase),[49] it is theoretical that Berberine may increase circulating testosterone levels; this is currently untested in living systems. -source


that sounds very good, too and i want to try it to boost libido and to improve gut health. but the links i posted previously in my post hold me back cause that sounds very alarming to me, or not? would be nice if someone could clarify. maybe i misunderstand the mechanism of action in which berberine caused mitochondrial dysfunction and increaaed glycolysis.
 
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that sounds very good, too and i want to try it to boost libido and to improve gut health. but the links i posted previously in my post hold me back cause that sounds very alarming to me, or not? would be nice if someone could clarify. maybe i misunderstand the mechanism of action in which berberine caused mitochondrial dysfunction and increaaed glycolysis.
Then you should combine it with glutamate excitotoxicity neuroprotector like N-Acetylcysteine NAC, and NMDA antagonistic like magnesium and zinc.
[edit and to protect mitochondria there is ALCAR]
 
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