PFS victim with abormal immune response to stimuli (even vitamin D) any suggestions?

[Irish7777]

Hi,

I am a PFS victim and like many on their journey have experimented with certain supplements which made my situation worse.

One being DIM but the other which made things very much worse was Tribulus which contained a high percentage of protodioscin.

Before I took Tribulus I was taking both Vitamin D and Boron for a year with no issues, both helped me out quite well especially with penal shrinkage.

But after tribulus I got adrenal issues, muscle loss and other stuff but now get crazy reactions to some basic things.

If I take either Vitiman D or Boron now I will develop neck pain, knee pain, slight stiff hand, clicking sounds from ankles and Boron gave me thoracic spine pain. As I said I could take these before Tribulus.
I am obviously getting an inflammatory response now..

I am wondering if I should look take an anti inflammatory or is that too risky long term or should I try micro dose them to try get my immune system to accept them?

I read that Protodioscin increases androgen receptor immunoreacivity, meaning it increases the concentration of androgen receptors in cells, causing the organism to become more sensitive to androgens like testosterone and DHT.

It seems it has caused me to be extremely sensitive to Vitiman D and Boron now.


I do have an appointment with an endocrinologist in three weeks and hoped for some advice on here beforehand.

 

[Blue Water]

Does going into the sun cause the same issues as taking oral vitamin D?

 

[Irish7777]

Does going into the sun cause the same issues as taking oral vitamin D?

Interestingly no. On the contrary it makes me feel really good.

I live in Ireland and we get about four good months for sunshine, well warmish sunshine.

The thing is vitamin D supplement helps with my penal shrinkage and muscle tone even at 500ui

I could drink high strength vitamin D milk but I don't get same improvement, maybe sugar from milk not good especially with PFS

 

[Jayvee]

What vit d supplement are you taking. As a PFS person myself I have found that MCT in supps can cause problems for me. Also what dose are you taking it? How many calories are you taking in? And are you taking K2 alongside it? These are just some factors to consider when taking vitamin d. In my experience upping calcium and megnesium has been the most helpful and are helpful when supplementing vit d.

 

[Irish7777]

What vit d supplement are you taking. As a PFS person myself I have found that MCT in supps can cause problems for me. Also what dose are you taking it? How many calories are you taking in? And are you taking K2 alongside it? These are just some factors to consider when taking vitamin d. In my experience upping calcium and megnesium has been the most helpful and are helpful when supplementing vit d.

Identical ones taken to one's before Tribulus and at same times of day with same diet.
Even tried different ones including a vitamin D cream and drops too.
Same problem.

Boron is giving me the same reaction too. And used exact same supplement from container before Tribulus and different brand too.

I bet if I tried testosterone or DHT treatment same would happen.

My body is flat out rejecting any stimulant in supplement form.

 

[Jayvee]

It could well be your liver. What symptoms are you getting with the D? I personally dont find the androgens particularly useful as a whole for PFS (although I had a few weeks on DHT and felt pretty good cognitively). I find it's more related to neurotransmitters and getting diet right. If sunlight makes you feel okay and you are in Ireland then it might be worth investing in a vit d lamp instead. It could be a case that you are not supporting the increase needs from taking it and you are just "ramping things up" too much.

 

[Irish7777]

It could well be your liver. What symptoms are you getting with the D? I personally dont find the androgens particularly useful as a whole for PFS (although I had a few weeks on DHT and felt pretty good cognitively). I find it's more related to neurotransmitters and getting diet right. If sunlight makes you feel okay and you are in Ireland then it might be worth investing in a vit d lamp instead. It could be a case that you are not supporting the increase needs from taking it and you are just "ramping things up" too much.

Had bloods done and GP says liver, kidney function etc all good.

My vitamin D symptoms are body aches, stiffness and clicking sounds from ankles.

Before my Tribulus crash I would take 3000ui of Vitamin D daily with no issues.

Now if I take just 400ui after four days I get problems.

I took Boron 3mg for five days and experienced severe thoracic spine pain and fatigue.
I had to get chiro treatment for six weeks to resolve it.

Before Tribulus I cycled Boron frequently with no issues.

Tribulus has messed me up and I believe it's because it was very high in protodioscin.


The Vitamin D lamp sounds like something I should look into, thank you.

 

[Jonk]

Had bloods done and GP says liver, kidney function etc all good.

My vitamin D symptoms are body aches, stiffness and clicking sounds from ankles.

Before my Tribulus crash I would take 3000ui of Vitamin D daily with no issues.

Now if I take just 400ui after four days I get problems.

I took Boron 3mg for five days and experienced severe thoracic spine pain and fatigue.
I had to get chiro treatment for six weeks to resolve it.

Before Tribulus I cycled Boron frequently with no issues.

Tribulus has messed me up and I believe it's because it was very high in protodioscin.


The Vitamin D lamp sounds like something I should look into, thank you.

Not sure if my understanding is correct, but maybe the vitamin D is being shuffled more towards the 1,25OHD.

"Severe hypercalcemia is mainly caused by inappropriately high concentrations of compounds which promote bone resorption, in particular PTH, PTHrP, or 1,25-D." — Schmind, C. (1994)

“Replacement therapy with calcitriol… often produces hypercalcaemia… In addition, these vitamin D compounds can aggravate the hyperphosphataemia in these patients.” — Brown, et al. (2002)

Vitamin D: Bioenergetic Wunderkind or Arbiter of Doom?

"What could be more important to understand than biological energy? Thought, growth, movement, every philosophical and practical issue involves the nature of biological energy." — Raymond Peat

dannyroddy.substack.com

I think one advantage with vitamin D from UVB is when the skin produces the vitamin it's released into the bloodstream slowly which might help not overburdening the system. For me, if I feel constipated, and I think I have some sort of intestinal permeability, I can't even handle bright sun and heat. Maybe my body is telling me to shuffle the vitamin D to fight an active infection/inflammation. But if I've cleaned out my intestines so to speak, I can stay in the sun for much longer and actually enjoy it.

 

[UG Krishnamurti]

One reason that D3 could be causing all of those symptomes is that when there is an inflammatory state the macrophages and other immune cells are overly activated. All these cells actively and quite effectively convert 25D into 1,25D (outside the kidneys) worsening any inflammatory symptoms. Increasing calficiation, stiffness, bone pain, joint pains etc. I had an extremely bad experience with D3 and I think a lot of people should not supplement it for this reason.
If you think you are low on vitamin D you should check serum 1,25D. Almost no one is low on 1,25D. And most people are on the very high end.

The fact that you feel better in the sun and not on supplemental D3 speaks volumes. I feel the same way. Supplemental D3 is in a fat soluble form while when you get it from the sun - you get in a sulfated (water soluble) form.

Also the conversion from the skin is totally different then when you take D3 orally.

It could be that supplemental D3 for all these years progressively lowered your immune system while taking Tribulus activated it.

 

[Irish7777]

One reason that D3 could be causing all of those symptomes is that when there is an inflammatory state the macrophages and other immune cells are overly activated. All these cells actively and quite effectively convert 25D into 1,25D (outside the kidneys) worsening any inflammatory symptoms. Increasing calficiation, stiffness, bone pain, joint pains etc. I had an extremely bad experience with D3 and I think a lot of people should not supplement it for this reason.
If you think you are low on vitamin D you should check serum 1,25D. Almost no one is low on 1,25D. And most people are on the very high end.

The fact that you feel better in the sun and not on supplemental D3 speaks volumes. I feel the same way. Supplemental D3 is in a fat soluble form while when you get it from the sun - you get in a sulfated (water soluble) form.

Also the conversion from the skin is totally different then when you take D3 orally.

It could be that supplemental D3 for all these years progressively lowered your immune system while taking Tribulus activated it.

One reason that D3 could be causing all of those symptomes is that when there is an inflammatory state the macrophages and other immune cells are overly activated. All these cells actively and quite effectively convert 25D into 1,25D (outside the kidneys) worsening any inflammatory symptoms. Increasing calficiation, stiffness, bone pain, joint pains etc. I had an extremely bad experience with D3 and I think a lot of people should not supplement it for this reason.
If you think you are low on vitamin D you should check serum 1,25D. Almost no one is low on 1,25D. And most people are on the very high end.

The fact that you feel better in the sun and not on supplemental D3 speaks volumes. I feel the same way. Supplemental D3 is in a fat soluble form while when you get it from the sun - you get in a sulfated (water soluble) form.

Also the conversion from the skin is totally different then when you take D3 orally.

It could be that supplemental D3 for all these years progressively lowered your immune system while taking Tribulus activated it.

Hey that is an interesting point.

I actually believe Tribulus triggered an autoimmune issue/condition in my body.

I developed a small muscle loss pocket like a dent you would see in a car on my right cheek, hairloss from my lower right forearm and hairloss from my lower right leg along with lots of other stuff.

Since then my body is ultra sensitive to most supplements. L glutamine 5g daily for four days gave me heart palpitations and extreme fatigue with bad crash.
When I drink alcohol now I get kinda of eczema or reddish skin on moustache area, although that might be adrenal related as my 24hr saliva test came back poor.


Basically just two high strength tribulus with protodioscin 80% messed my PFS up much more

Maybe my body is in an inflammatory state.

Before Tribulus I could take anything and have zero bad reaction.

As for my vitamin D it wad tested recently and extremely low 13ng/ml

 

[UG Krishnamurti]

As for my vitamin D it wad tested recently and extremely low 13ng/ml

Before I experimented with D3 my serum 25D was 22ng/ml.
After oral and topical D3 experiment I experienced a lot of inflammatory issues after which my serum 25D tanked to 17ng/ml...

So it's probably being converted into 1,25D which is the actual active form being used by the body.

 

[Jonk]

Before I experimented with D3 my serum 25D was 22ng/ml.
After oral and topical D3 experiment I experienced a lot of inflammatory issues after which my serum 25D tanked to 17ng/ml...

So it's probably being converted into 1,25D which is the actual active form being used by the body.

Did you ever try topical only?

 

[UG Krishnamurti]

Did you ever try topical only?

Yep. Topical only for 5 days. First I did it orally. For maybe a week. Each day was worse than the other. So I stopped and waited for my symptomes to become somewhat better. After that I tried topical only. It was terrible just the same.

 

[Korven]

One reason that D3 could be causing all of those symptomes is that when there is an inflammatory state the macrophages and other immune cells are overly activated. All these cells actively and quite effectively convert 25D into 1,25D (outside the kidneys) worsening any inflammatory symptoms. Increasing calficiation, stiffness, bone pain, joint pains etc. I had an extremely bad experience with D3 and I think a lot of people should not supplement it for this reason.
If you think you are low on vitamin D you should check serum 1,25D. Almost no one is low on 1,25D. And most people are on the very high end.

The fact that you feel better in the sun and not on supplemental D3 speaks volumes. I feel the same way. Supplemental D3 is in a fat soluble form while when you get it from the sun - you get in a sulfated (water soluble) form.

Also the conversion from the skin is totally different then when you take D3 orally.

It could be that supplemental D3 for all these years progressively lowered your immune system while taking Tribulus activated it.

+1

This completely matches my experience. I feel way better with no vitamin D supplements despite having near deficient levels, around 15 ng/ml.

 

[Jonk]

+1

This completely matches my experience. I feel way better with no vitamin D supplements despite having near deficient levels, around 15 ng/ml.

Are you currently trying to elevate your D levels by sunlight/UVB?