One Reason Why Ray Peat Recommends Low(er) Fat Diet

[DaveFoster]

Thanks, really cool figures, especially the one about PUFA decreasing T:)
Btw, the conclusion of the study said the DIF had higher testsoterone, not lower. Am I reading it wrong?
"...Serum concentrations of testosterone, SHBG, NST and cortisol increased significantly during the study period in the DIF group and were, with the exception of SHBG, significantly higher than in the SSK group at the end of the study."

You're correct; the lower fat group had greater androgen concentrations, and the differences in SHBG are negligible according to the study. Testosterone and NST went up , which is promising, but cortisol did as well; I wonder if this is due to an increased PUFA/MUFA or PUFA/SFA ratio with a lower fat intake.

"The ratio between NST and cortisol which was used as an index of anabolic/catabolic steroid balance did not change in either group during the study. A significant decrease in the serum concentrations of LH during the observation period was found in the SSK group."

So there's mixed benefits to a higher carb intake; it raises cortisol but also testosterone and LH.

"These PUFA stimulate the stress hormones, ACTH, cortisol, adrenaline, glucagon, and prolactin, which increase lipolysis, producing more fatty acids in a vicious circle."
- Ray Peat

As you also posted a study on, the ability of PUFA to stimulate cortisol even in the absence of ACTH may very well be responsible for the increased concentrations in the lower SFA group.

 

[madbored]

Cheese should have no whey left if produced properly. The rennet splits the protein into casein and whey and the whey is discarded or fed to animals. Strained yogurt should also be mostly casein. Regular milk has both whey and casein, but lately I have been eating mostly cheese and strained yogurt and I find it very relaxing. Also, I made another post recently about Icelandic "skyr", which is something like a mix between yogurt and cottage cheese and should also be mostly casein.

I recall you talking about having a reaction to the excess lactate in skyr. Have you found a way to temper this reaction? I've tried taking extra thiamine with yogurt and skyr but that didn't help me much.

 

[haidut]

You're correct; the lower fat group had greater androgen concentrations, and the differences in SHBG are negligible according to the study. Testosterone and NST went up , which is promising, but cortisol did as well; I wonder if this is due to an increased PUFA/MUFA or PUFA/SFA ratio with a lower fat intake.

"The ratio between NST and cortisol which was used as an index of anabolic/catabolic steroid balance did not change in either group during the study. A significant decrease in the serum concentrations of LH during the observation period was found in the SSK group."

So there's mixed benefits to a higher carb intake; it raises cortisol but also testosterone and LH.

"These PUFA stimulate the stress hormones, ACTH, cortisol, adrenaline, glucagon, and prolactin, which increase lipolysis, producing more fatty acids in a vicious circle."
- Ray Peat

As you also posted a study on, the ability of PUFA to stimulate cortisol even in the absence of ACTH may very well be responsible for the increased concentrations in the lower SFA group.

Thanks, that's what I thought as well.

 

[haidut]

I recall you talking about having a reaction to the excess lactate in skyr. Have you found a way to temper this reaction? I've tried taking extra thiamine with yogurt and skyr but that didn't help me much.

I switched to the plain organic strained yogurt available in my grocery store and have not had issues since then.

 

[Jsaute21]

Which brand of yogurt was that @haidut?

 

[haidut]

Which brand of yogurt was that @haidut?

There are quite a few in WholeFoods and Trade Joe. I just buy whatever plain organic brand is on sale and does not contain carrageenan.

 

[belcanto]

You can get 3 pounds of Fage 0% fat Greek yogurt for less than $6.50 at Costco - it's just skim milk and yogurt cultures. (This would be tasty with Dr. Peat's marmalade; I make lemon curd and add it to the yogurt for lemon yogurt. )

 

[Sucrates]

I find Fage 0% and similar greek yogurts better if you restrain them. I eat a lot and always have a couple straining in the fridge.

 

[xjwestx]

Maybe I am mistaken, but I thought Haidut mentioned in a Danny Roddy interview that the fermenting of yogurt causes problems (maybe lactic acid production)?

 

[haidut]

Maybe I am mistaken, but I thought Haidut mentioned in a Danny Roddy interview that the fermenting of yogurt causes problems (maybe lactic acid production)?

Yes, it does create lactic acid but the Grek yogurt is strained so it only leaves the casein and some of the bacteria. Greek yogurt is basically liquid-ish cheese (casein).

 

[xjwestx]

Awesome, thanks for the quick reply Haidut! And thank you for all you great information you post and the Danny Roddy interviews!

 

[Ella]

I feel best on 10% - 15% of calories, and this is what the long term studies on rodent longevity seem to favor as well. More than that is tastier but can give me weight gain. Less than that gives me the same fat-starved feeling that a high dose biotin or niacinamide can give.

Haidut are you still eating 10 - 15% fat in your diet? I am thinking of cutting fat % from 18 - 20% down to 15% - 10% but I don't want to become more insulin resistant by dumping more fat into my system or stressing my pancreas out by upping carbs. After reading McDougall's newsletter about not eating fruit for a while and just sticking to starches kinda worried me a bit along with Ashton Kutcher's one month fruitarian experiment. Does anyone know exactly which fruits he was eating?

Do you think monitoring triglycerides to be a good marker in titrating the increase in carbs and fruit/sugar and reduction in fat?

 

[haidut]

Haidut are you still eating 10 - 15% fat in your diet? I am thinking of cutting fat % from 18 - 20% down to 15% - 10% but I don't want to become more insulin resistant by dumping more fat into my system or stressing my pancreas out by upping carbs. After reading McDougall's newsletter about not eating fruit for a while and just sticking to starches kinda worried me a bit along with Ashton Kutcher's one month fruitarian experiment. Does anyone know exactly which fruits he was eating?

Do you think monitoring triglycerides to be a good marker in titrating the increase in carbs and fruit/sugar and reduction in fat?

I don't really count micronutrients any more. Every since I lost all of the excess weight I put on initially while Peating back in 2013 I eat pretty much what I want with the simple rules of avoiding PUFA, starch and legumes. Looking at cronometer, I am averaging probably close to 20%-22% fat daily.

 

[Wagner83]

The studies @DaveFoster posted are interesting but quite contradictory with some of the lower fat views , same for cortisol rising from high carb.

 

[Owen B]

I don't really count micronutrients any more. Every since I lost all of the excess weight I put on initially while Peating back in 2013 I eat pretty much what I want with the simple rules of avoiding PUFA, starch and legumes. Looking at cronometer, I am averaging probably close to 20%-22% fat daily.

I'm really curious to know what your thinking is about starch, legumes.

McDougall favors them and his patients all lose weight. But they also do not take any fat, including PUFAs. They don't look very healthy but they're not taking any hormones either.

Westside PUFAs posted some very interesting info from McCarbthyism.com where the difference between wet starches and dry starches are detailed. Wet starches (boiled) keep the starch molecule intact so it's broken down in an orderly fashion and taken up mostly as muscle glycogen (maybe liver too?). But if you bake or fry a starch the starch molecule fractionates and the sugar goes into circulation. So starch is not the same as sugar.

If we're supposed to keep fat low and synthesize it from sugar, where is that sugar supposed to come from? From storage, no?

 

[haidut]

I'm really curious to know what your thinking is about starch, legumes.

McDougall favors them and his patients all lose weight. But they also do not take any fat, including PUFAs. They don't look very healthy but they're not taking any hormones either.

Westside PUFAs posted some very interesting info from McCarbthyism.com where the difference between wet starches and dry starches are detailed. Wet starches (boiled) keep the starch molecule intact so it's broken down in an orderly fashion and taken up mostly as muscle glycogen (maybe liver too?). But if you bake or fry a starch the starch molecule fractionates and the sugar goes into circulation. So starch is not the same as sugar.

If we're supposed to keep fat low and synthesize it from sugar, where is that sugar supposed to come from? From storage, no?

No matter how well you boil something like beans, enough resistant starch will remain to feed the bacteria. Beans specifically can cause issues like methemoglobinemia, and have been tied to lymphoma. In general, overground parts of plants are not really meant to be eaten on a regular basis by humans, they are subsistence food. Most legumes are also highly estrogenic and easily induce abortions in pregnant animals who eat them. Most equines will refuse to eat bean leaves under any circumstance (even when starving) and animals like sheep and goats who do eat them have very limited tolerance and suffer miscarriage when they overdo these leaves.
Finally, most toxins of a plant are concentrated in the seeds to prevent its digestion and discourage eating. Legumes are no exception. If boiled, it is common practice in most non-Western cultures to throw out the water after boiling and even boil 2-3 times in a row. If you have to go to such lengths to make something edible it is probably not meant to be eaten on a regular basis.
Bill Clinton went on the Dean Ornish diet, which is mostly beans. He looks like an F-ing freak now. All people that I know who subsist on legumes and greens have terrible digestion issues, terrible skin quality, and they don't sleep much at night. Of course, other things could be causing this but people who eat mostly potatoes/rice as their starch don't seen to have these issues.

 

[dfspcc20]

If boiled, it is common practice in most non-Western cultures to throw out the water after boiling and even boil 2-3 times in a row.

As well as removing the skins after the first parboil, from what I've read.

If you have to go to such lengths to make something edible it is probably not meant to be eaten on a regular basis.

That begs the question, for me anyways- why did humans start doing such practices in the first place, and why do they continue to this day?
Was it an accident? Is it just a vestige of a time when when that was the only way to obtain sufficient calories?

 

[Westside PUFAs]

@haidut You've said that you like lentils due to their nutritional and amino acid profile not that long ago. Lentils are a legume.

No matter how well you boil something like beans, enough resistant starch will remain to feed the bacteria.

Yes and it will produce butyric acid, a saturated fat.

Tater Haters Love Resistant Starch

Beans specifically can cause issues like methemoglobinemia

Not all beans. Fava beans. And it's not really the fava beans, it's an pretty rare enzyme deficiency. It's called "favism" and it's caused by a G6PD deficiency (glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase deficiency)

What Is G6PD Deficiency

and have been tied to lymphoma

I can't find anything supporting this. Please provide sources.

In general, overground parts of plants are not really meant to be eaten on a regular basis by humans, they are subsistence food.

Fruits and grains are above ground. People who are anti-grain use the "subsistence" argument in the wrong way. They say they are nutrient poor and are only used for subsistence. Well, that's exactly the point. The human being needs that constant energy source which is exactly why all successful populations used grains as their main fuel and still do. You can't have thriving humans without them, or some form of starch which shows the human being is hardwired to have a boiled starch base for energy. Today there are ways to bypass boiled starch as ones main daily energy but that doesn't take anything away from the original point. You can get your other micronutrients elsewhere but you need that main macronutrient of carbohydrate for calories.

Most legumes are also highly estrogenic and easily induce abortions in pregnant animals who eat them. Most equines will refuse to eat bean leaves under any circumstance (even when starving) and animals like sheep and goats who do eat them have very limited tolerance and suffer miscarriage when they overdo these leaves.

Non-human animals don't know how to process and cook legumes. And even if we fed them our processed and cooked versions, they are not us.

Finally, most toxins of a plant are concentrated in the seeds to prevent its digestion and discourage eating.

But humans are clever:

Legumes are no exception. If boiled, it is common practice in most non-Western cultures to throw out the water after boiling and even boil 2-3 times in a row. If you have to go to such lengths to make something edible it is probably not meant to be eaten on a regular basis.

Studies showing toxicity of compounds in beans is eliminated from cooking:

"The haemagglutinin (lectin), which occurs naturally in the red kidney bean, is inactivated by thorough cooking of well soaked beans. In many of the outbreaks reported the implicated beans were consumed raw or following an inadequate heat process."

Food poisoning from raw red kidney beans. - PubMed - NCBI

Red kidney bean poisoning in the UK: an analysis of 50 suspected incidents between 1976 and 1989.

Studies on germination conditions and antioxidant contents of wheat grain. - PubMed - NCBI

Changes of folates, dietary fiber, and proteins in wheat as affected by germination. - PubMed - NCBI

Comparative study on nutrient composition, phytochemical, and functional characteristics of raw, germinated, and fermented Moringa oleifera seed flour

Effect of fermentation on antinutrients, and total and extractable minerals of high and low phytate corn genotypes. - PubMed - NCBI

Many talk about raw or undercooked beans/vegetables, but I don't know anyone who eats beans/vegetables raw/undercooked. It's a weird thing to say.

The Seventh-day Adventists in California are long lived bean eaters:

Adventist Health Studies - Wikipedia

Why Loma Linda residents live longer than the rest of us: They treat the body like a temple

Ellsworth Wareham who's now 103

Bill Clinton went on the Dean Ornish diet, which is mostly beans. He looks like an F-ing freak now.

Yes and it saved his life and no it is not "mostly beans." And why do you expect a stressed out 70 year old to look like he's 50?

Say what you will about Ornish and Esselstyn but they are the only ones publishing clinical trials showing reversal of the number one killer through diet: http://www.healthpromoting.com/sites/default/files/JFP_06307_Article1.pdf

Ornish allowed fat free yogurt.

All people that I know who subsist on legumes and greens have terrible digestion issues, terrible skin quality, and they don't sleep much at night.

All the people I know drinking whole milk, eating low fiber, high meat and low starch have terrible digestion issues, terrible skin quality, and they don't sleep much at night.

Whole Health Source: Beans, Lentils, and the Paleo Diet

Legumes: the most important dietary predictor of survival in older people of different ethnicities

Cooked kidney beans have 1% of the lectins of raw kidney beans: BBB - Phytohaemagglutinin

Some Lectins Anti-cancer:

Lectins with Potential for Anti-Cancer Therapy

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...

http://ar.iiarjournals.org/content/25...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2...

Boiling spinach removed about 60% of the oxalates: http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/j..

.

 

[Ella]

I grew up on beans and completely removed them from the diet. I have reintroduced beans and whole grains. I don't eat them if I have not properly prepared them myself but can't bring myself to ever eat red kidney beans. However, there are many people who have problems with grains, legumes and starches. Usually, those who have been gluten-free (non-celiac's) and restrictive eating.

The beans and grains (grown without chemicals) would be excellent for iron overload disease in which IP6 supplementation works nicely. The issue is that not everyone can eat them without experiencing intolerable gut grief.

There is one KMUD interview where Ray says that beans are OK if properly soaked and prepared.

 

[Ella]

Thanks for the reminder westside. Is this the same interview that he mentions that beans are OK too. Yes, sprouted grains when well-cooked become very nutritious. Barley is my favourite. I use sprouted barley for my animals and chickens. Nothing beats barley with gelatine broth in the winter time and lemon barley water in the heat of the summer. Why did I think I had to give up my favourite foods; just the thought of barley soup makes my stress hormones come down. How can it be so bad when it makes you feel so good. The barley does make animals put on fat but I am not eating non-stop like a cow. But boy does that fat taste good.