One Reason Why Ray Peat Recommends Low(er) Fat Diet

[Westside PUFAs]

Thanks for the reminder westside. Is this the same interview that he mentions that beans are OK too. Yes, sprouted grains when well-cooked become very nutritious. Barley is my favourite. I use sprouted barley for my animals and chickens. Nothing beats barley with gelatine broth in the winter time and lemon barley water in the heat of the summer. Why did I think I had to give up my favourite foods; just the thought of barley soup makes my stress hormones come down. How can it be so bad when it makes you feel so good. The barley does make animals put on fat but I am not eating non-stop like a cow. But boy does that fat taste good.

Peat doesn't like beans and grains. He thinks the safest starches are potatoes, white rice and masa harina. My response to Haidut above was outside of a strict Peat context. Legumes are in their own category because they are high in protein whereas roots and grains are lower in protein and high carb. I don't know which interview you are talking about. If you find it let me know. Peat's opinion may have changed like it did with mushrooms. He once thought they were toxic then changed his mind. I'm also looking for an interview where he said something about some country eating cooked greens and no dairy and having healthy bones.

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[heaahde]

I just wish legumes/lentils and so on didn't have so god damn high fiber content. Otherwise I see them to actually be good foods (I can feel your judgements upon me). Lots of nutrients, makes you full, high carb and protein and pretty low on fat most of the times. But it's impossible to eat high amount of these carbs without getting over 40 g fiber if you need 3k+ kcal a day like me to even maintain weight. Rice and potatoes gets dull after a while!

Are there refined legumes/lentils like white pasta?

 

[Matt1951]

For certain beans, such as pinto, navy, and lentils, the amino acid profile is good, example: Amino Acid Profile of Beans
Beans should be a good supplemental source of protein, being relatively low in methionine. Beans should not be the primary source of protein.

Baked beans give me less gas than pinto beans. Van Camp's pork and beans gives me no gas. Bush baked beans give a very small amount.
Phytoestrogens are pretty low in navy (white) and pinto beans. Lentils in this list show very low phytoestrogen. http://mentalhealthdaily.com/2015/04/08/20-foods-high-in-estrogen-phytoestrogens/
Navy beans are a good source of magnesium.

 

[haidut]

@haidut You've said that you like lentils due to their nutritional and amino acid profile not that long ago. Lentils are a legume.



Yes and it will produce butyric acid, a saturated fat.

Tater Haters Love Resistant Starch



Not all beans. Fava beans. And it's not really the fava beans, it's an pretty rare enzyme deficiency. It's called "favism" and it's caused by a G6PD deficiency (glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase deficiency)

What Is G6PD Deficiency



I can't find anything supporting this. Please provide sources.



Fruits and grains are above ground. People who are anti-grain use the "subsistence" argument in the wrong way. They say they are nutrient poor and are only used for subsistence. Well, that's exactly the point. The human being needs that constant energy source which is exactly why all successful populations used grains as their main fuel and still do. You can't have thriving humans without them, or some form of starch which shows the human being is hardwired to have a boiled starch base for energy. Today there are ways to bypass boiled starch as ones main daily energy but that doesn't take anything away from the original point. You can get your other micronutrients elsewhere but you need that main macronutrient of carbohydrate for calories.



Non-human animals don't know how to process and cook legumes. And even if we fed them our processed and cooked versions, they are not us.



But humans are clever:





Studies showing toxicity of compounds in beans is eliminated from cooking:

"The haemagglutinin (lectin), which occurs naturally in the red kidney bean, is inactivated by thorough cooking of well soaked beans. In many of the outbreaks reported the implicated beans were consumed raw or following an inadequate heat process."

Food poisoning from raw red kidney beans. - PubMed - NCBI

Red kidney bean poisoning in the UK: an analysis of 50 suspected incidents between 1976 and 1989.

Studies on germination conditions and antioxidant contents of wheat grain. - PubMed - NCBI

Changes of folates, dietary fiber, and proteins in wheat as affected by germination. - PubMed - NCBI

Comparative study on nutrient composition, phytochemical, and functional characteristics of raw, germinated, and fermented Moringa oleifera seed flour

Effect of fermentation on antinutrients, and total and extractable minerals of high and low phytate corn genotypes. - PubMed - NCBI

Many talk about raw or undercooked beans/vegetables, but I don't know anyone who eats beans/vegetables raw/undercooked. It's a weird thing to say.

The Seventh-day Adventists in California are long lived bean eaters:

Adventist Health Studies - Wikipedia

Why Loma Linda residents live longer than the rest of us: They treat the body like a temple

Ellsworth Wareham who's now 103



Yes and it saved his life and no it is not "mostly beans." And why do you expect a stressed out 70 year old to look like he's 50?

Say what you will about Ornish and Esselstyn but they are the only ones publishing clinical trials showing reversal of the number one killer through diet: http://www.healthpromoting.com/sites/default/files/JFP_06307_Article1.pdf

Ornish allowed fat free yogurt.



All the people I know drinking whole milk, eating low fiber, high meat and low starch have terrible digestion issues, terrible skin quality, and they don't sleep much at night.

Whole Health Source: Beans, Lentils, and the Paleo Diet

Legumes: the most important dietary predictor of survival in older people of different ethnicities

Cooked kidney beans have 1% of the lectins of raw kidney beans: BBB - Phytohaemagglutinin

Some Lectins Anti-cancer:

Lectins with Potential for Anti-Cancer Therapy

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...

http://ar.iiarjournals.org/content/25...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2...

Boiling spinach removed about 60% of the oxalates: http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/j..

.

I should have mentioned the lentils, I thought I did but I guess I forgot. Lentils are probably safe and certainly safer than other legumes. I am not saying that legumes cannot be eaten, just that they are not optimal food for humans. They are a food when there is nothing else around though.
How do you know Clinton's life was saved by the Ornish diet? Clinton had his bypass in 2004 and his Ornish diet started long after that. So, it was probably his bypass that played a much more direct role in saving his life.
Clinton's Heart Bypass Surgery Called a Success (washingtonpost.com)

More importantly, Bill's issues go back to his youth. As he said, he was a "fat band boy". I don't think the beans played any role in improving his health. He looks worse than Bernie Sanders and Bernie is older. Again more importantly, Bernie looked worse than Clinton 20 years ago but somehow stabilized while eating junk food and pretty much what he wants. I am not saying the beans did Clinton in, his heart disease did. But the beans do not seem to be helping. And that high protein low carb diet he did while practicing intermittent fasting was probably not good either.
Is Bill Clinton a Vegan or Not? Turns Out, He's as Baffled About Dieting as You Are.
"...In his 2004 memoir, My Life, Clinton describes his younger self as a “fat band boy.” By age 13 he weighed 185 pounds. One summer, while still a teenager, he designed his own diet: a high-protein, low-carb plan that allowed for only one meal a day. Clinton claims he lost 20 pounds in one month. "
Let me dig for the beans/lymphoma link. It was linked to only two of them - I think Burkitt's and Hodgkin's. But I will find the studies and post here.

 

[tca300]

Its interesting that people think "foods" that need to be processed through heavy cooking, soaking, etc etc... are the ideal foods, when they have clearly developed toxic or somewhat toxic, and allergenic, defense substances that are there so as to detour creatures from eating them, when other foods are out there that the plant produces that are intended by said plant to be consumed by other creatures.. but I suppose if people feel the need to go through those extra steps for inferior nutrition, thats none of my business.

 

[Owen B]

Well, I'm still trying to make sense of this whole debate. I'm not a numbers guy and I don't know any of my food percentages so I'm just making experiments like everyone else.

Here's some of my thoughts.

All, I know so far from bringing more WET starches into my diet is that with too much of them I get a little hypoglycemic. I have trouble getting all the energy into my system that I would like (too much cortisol and adrenaline) so there's always a sugar problem.

I wonder if a high WET starch diet is better for 1) tackling high weight problems associated with diabetic complications (too much insulin sensitivity) and whether continuing on it once you've brought your weight down is a good thing. 30 -60 gms of protein? No hormones? That doesn't sound right. 2) high performance athletics, carb loading etc?

As far as Clinton goes, it sounds like his "fat band" issues were high saturated fats and DRY starches. I think we got slightly off track with the discussion about beans.

Also, as with anyone who says they're on a "diet", it's not what they say they eat, it's what they actually eat. I remember when I was "on" a low-carb diet; I was hungry all the time and running for carb snacks (DRY starches). So we really don't know the whole story with Clinton.

I'm just trying to build up my sugar stores and it looks like the right kind of starches, in moderation for now, is OK. But I eat boneless chicken, eggs but have dropped dairy way down.

Is everyone else eating lots of sugar, fructose? If I don't get past the hypoglycemia, I'll have to start to add it in.

 

[Jsaute21]

Its interesting that people think "foods" that need to be processed through heavy cooking, soaking, etc etc... are the ideal foods, when they have clearly developed toxic or somewhat toxic, and allergenic, defense substances that are there so as to detour creatures from eating them, when other foods are out there that the plant produces that are intended by said plant to be consumed by other creatures.. but I suppose if people feel the need to go through those extra steps for inferior nutrition, thats none of my business.

Think you hit the nail on the head emphatically, here @tca300 . I can personally say that since upping sugar, lowering starch, raising caffeine, lowering PUFA etc i have become about 3X the human i was for the past 3 years. (Mood, Work Productivity, Social Interactions.)

I was always someone life came relatively easy to, until my metabolism tanked. Quite the humbling experience. I think society GREATLY underestimates the amount of folks out there with eating disorders. I had one for a while (undiagnosed). From reading the posts on here, i would estimate that well over 50% of the forum members here have battled with anorexia nervosa as well. What i am getting at, is many people are simply afraid of dogmatized food options such as ice cream, mexican coke, sugared coffee's etc. I am not saying it works for everyone, but it certainly seems to work for many on here who have greatly improved their lives. @haidut certainly isn't blowing smoke up anyone's ****, and i know I for one just owe the guy a big Thank You.

 

[Xisca]

I think the main reason Ray does not favor high fat is that metabolically speaking fat will generate less CO2 than carbs, so it's not as pro-metabolic as sugar.

Yes, but if you are bad with sugar metabolism, then you may produce even less CO2, if you produce lactic acid.
Is it right that fat burning cannot produce lactic acid?

 

[Xisca]

Given that darkness is stress, loading up on protein (casein/gelatin) and sugar is probably the best defense while we are asleep.

I have a vague memory of "no protein after sun set", does it except casein and gelatin?

 

[Xisca]

I think you are right, gelatin can have some unpleasant effects on the gut if it stays undigested for too long. Some people on the forum have complained about gut issues when they used regular gelatin and not the hydrolyzed variety.
Either way, in moderate quantities I find both casein and gelatin to be very well accepted by my picky gut.

I had the idea that it might help to take gelatine with enzymes.... as they are from pineapple and papaya! Or put those fruits into the cooking... Those 2 fruits are said to be imposible to use for making dessert with gelatine, of course because it digests the protein!!!!

 

[Xisca]

However, there are many people who have problems with grains, legumes and starches. Usually, those who have been gluten-free (non-celiac's) and restrictive eating.

Like me!
I can prepare them so that I can eat some, though....
i grow big lima beans, as I have found a White variety that has less toxins.
I soak, sprout a Little, wash, cook, peel (that is why I use this big vean!), cook to puree, and I can enjoy them with butter!

 

[Wagner83]

Think you hit the nail on the head emphatically, here @tca300 . I can personally say that since upping sugar, lowering starch, raising caffeine, lowering PUFA etc i have become about 3X the human i was for the past 3 years. (Mood, Work Productivity, Social Interactions.)

I was always someone life came relatively easy to, until my metabolism tanked. Quite the humbling experience. I think society GREATLY underestimates the amount of folks out there with eating disorders. I had one for a while (undiagnosed). From reading the posts on here, i would estimate that well over 50% of the forum members here have battled with anorexia nervosa as well. What i am getting at, is many people are simply afraid of dogmatized food options such as ice cream, mexican coke, sugared coffee's etc. I am not saying it works for everyone, but it certainly seems to work for many on here who have greatly improved their lives. @haidut certainly isn't blowing smoke up anyone's ****, and i know I for one just owe the guy a big Thank You.

What supplements do you use though? I see a few people say they are doing a lot better with a similar diet but they also supplement with androsterone, pansterone, vitamin K2 on balls, 11-keto-dht , tyronene, niacinamide , taurine, glycine , fat soluble vitamins etc... You can't say the diet is the one responsible for the improvements in health. I can use androsterone and pansterone too , voice gets deeper , women are more attracted, mood is up, stress is very low, but that's with starch or without it. Actually those supplements can improve digestion enough to enable me to eat potatoes without issues etc..

 

[Jsaute21]

Very good point @Wagner83. I actually made a lot of progress without any supplements, with exception of gelatin and taurine. Adding preg, tocovit, etc has furthered my progress but I am not healed yet. Despite appearing healthy and having decently healthy bloods, my liver glycogen could be improved since upping my sugar. However, sugar combined with less (not no) starch have made a difference for me personally.

All I am saying is I feel leaner and sharper without starch. The irony is I do fine on starch. I don't think it's the devil at all, I just have to say as a former "health nerd" that i am pretty shocked how good I feel on cheese sticks and a sugar sweetened coke. I highly question people who say they would rather eat beans, lentils and broccoli opposed to ice cream, cheese, OJ etc. I believe our bodies prefer easy to use fuel.

I also view those supplements you mentioned (all phenomenal) as incapable of shutting down any feedback loops, so why not use them? Life is short and we owe it to ourselves to feel really good.

 

[Regina]

Very good point @Wagner83. I actually made a lot of progress without any supplements, with exception of gelatin and taurine. Adding preg, tocovit, etc has furthered my progress but I am not healed yet. Despite appearing healthy and having decently healthy bloods, my liver glycogen could be improved since upping my sugar. However, sugar combined with less (not no) starch have made a difference for me personally.

All I am saying is I feel leaner and sharper without starch. The irony is I do fine on starch. I don't think it's the devil at all, I just have to say as a former "health nerd" that i am pretty shocked how good I feel on cheese sticks and a sugar sweetened coke. I highly question people who say they would rather eat beans, lentils and broccoli opposed to ice cream, cheese, OJ etc. I believe our bodies prefer easy to use fuel.

I also view those supplements you mentioned (all phenomenal) as incapable of shutting down any feedback loops, so why not use them? Life is short and we owe it to ourselves to feel really good.

Ditto to all of this.
Most of the people in my life (work colleagues and/or aikido peeps) are of the lentils and broccoli health-conscious flavor. They are left blinking in bewilderment when I walk around a gathering with a red bull, cheese sticks in my pocket and a box of raisinets.

 

[JohnA]

Its interesting that people think "foods" that need to be processed through heavy cooking, soaking, etc etc... are the ideal foods, when they have clearly developed toxic or somewhat toxic, and allergenic, defense substances that are there so as to detour creatures from eating them, when other foods are out there that the plant produces that are intended by said plant to be consumed by other creatures.. but I suppose if people feel the need to go through those extra steps for inferior nutrition, thats none of my business.

Human's ability to process starches (cooking, soaking, etc.) is one of the main reasons why we were able to stop spending so much time focused on food and instead turn our attention to building civilization. Most wild animals spend almost all day searching for, eating, or digesting food. Carnivores have calorie-dense food sources, but have to spend time hunting and then more time digesting raw meat. Herbivores don't have to hunt as actively, but have to eat huge quantities of food since grasses and leaves are so calorie-light. Most human societies solved this dilemma with starch based diets. Starches don't run away from you, but still provide lots of calories relatively safely when cooked.

What other non-starch foods are you relying on for your calories? Milk? Orange juice? Refined sugar? Out of season fruits grown thousands of miles away? I have no issues with these foods, but it's hard to argue that they're less "processed" than cooked starches.

 

[mayweatherking]

I don't really count micronutrients any more. Every since I lost all of the excess weight I put on initially while Peating back in 2013 I eat pretty much what I want with the simple rules of avoiding PUFA, starch and legumes. Looking at cronometer, I am averaging probably close to 20%-22% fat daily.

How was your transition from gaining weight to being fully on in your thyroid?

What were you missing to where you were gaining so much weight? Cypro helped you didn't it?

 

[Ella]

Human's ability to process starches (cooking, soaking, etc.) is one of the main reasons why we were able to stop spending so much time focused on food and instead turn our attention to building civilization.

I find now that I have introduced starches, whole grains and even legumes, I can focus on a project without thinking of my next meal. If I have a bowl of porridge with dates and milk for breakfast. I don't think about food until around 1.30 - 2pm. This gives uninterrupted time to focus on the project at hand.

In the winter time when there are few fruits available except for citrus, persimmons, apples, pears and leafy greens and cruciferous; root vegetables, grains and legumes being storable, provide food for the colder months. They are economical and nutritious, helping to extend the foods on hand. For example, broth made from carcases of animals makes a delicious nourishing soup by adding root vegetables, some whole grains or legumes. It is one thing to provide food for one person but when feeding a large family, which includes children and grandparents, there is simply not enough money or produce to keep them from being hungry and well-fed every single day on just fruit and milk. I wish it was that easy. This is why we resort to soaking, fermenting, nixtamalizing etc, in order to render food palatable and appetising. This enables us to batch cook and freeze and at the ready to serve stressed out hungry beings that have been hard at work and play.

 

[Philomath]

Ditto to all of this.
Most of the people in my life (work colleagues and/or aikido peeps) are of the lentils and broccoli health-conscious flavor. They are left blinking in bewilderment when I walk around a gathering with a red bull, cheese sticks in my pocket and a box of raisinets.

My lunch crowd is the salad kit crew, bringing bags of lettuce and all the accoutrements. More than ever, I take pleasure in spreading out my child-like lunch of yogurt, sugar Pepsi, applesauce pouches, cheese sticks and gummy bears! And my 1/2 gallon coffee thermos I bring everywhere!
Btw, this thread hasn't really touched on the effect a healthy gut plays on starch/fiber tolerance. It would stand to reason that a more sterile, less inflamed gut would process starch and eliminate fiber before they become problematic.
I know it seems simplistic but the more time I spend in this forum (years now), the more it seems everything points to gut health as being the common denominator in overall healthiness... malabsorption, inflammation, endotoxins, permeability - all foundations for many degenerative health issues.

 

[Xisca]

Btw, this thread hasn't really touched on the effect a healthy gut plays on starch/fiber tolerance. It would stand to reason that a more sterile, less inflamed gut would process starch and eliminate fiber before they become problematic.
I know it seems simplistic but the more time I spend in this forum (years now), the more it seems everything points to gut health as being the common denominator in overall healthiness... malabsorption, inflammation, endotoxins, permeability - all foundations for many degenerative health issues.

Yes, eat what you want, if you can digest it.
You can add in the list of what is an issue, that all gut work is under the influence of some nerves.
No good digestion can happen under stress, because energy is used for action!

 

[haidut]

How was your transition from gaining weight to being fully on in your thyroid?

What were you missing to where you were gaining so much weight? Cypro helped you didn't it?

Cypro helped a lot, as did niacinamide and thiamine. Caffeine also helped lose some weight but the high doses should be used sparingly IMO. As little as 200mg caffeine daily is enough for liver benefits.
Doing mundane, routine work and being under a lot of stress professionally was probably the primary driver of bad metabolism. Very few things can stress you as much as being overworked and working on things that you feel are absolutely meaningless. Once I figured out a way to reduce that burden things seemed to improve in a very systemic fundamental way and gradually I felt very little need to supplement with anything on a daily basis.