Negative Training For Better Results But More Lactic Acid

[biggirlkisss]

negative training for better results but more lactic acid. my question is how much more lactic acid is produced.

 

[Kyle M]

Don't have that info, but I am interested in why Peat says negative training is bad but positive is good. He has said on a number of occasions that the negative part of the repetition (muscle lengthening) is stressful, whereas contraction is beneficial.

 

[paymanz]

Don't have that info, but I am interested in why Peat says negative training is bad but positive is good. He has said on a number of occasions that the negative part of the repetition (muscle lengthening) is stressful, whereas contraction is beneficial.

It damages muscle fibers, the pain after training shows that damage.

 

[paymanz]

By what means you call better result for negative training?

Yes it probably make bigger muscles but other qualities fall I think.

 

[Gl;itch.e]

Don't have that info, but I am interested in why Peat says negative training is bad but positive is good. He has said on a number of occasions that the negative part of the repetition (muscle lengthening) is stressful, whereas contraction is beneficial.

I believe it essentially boils down to

concentric exercise increases glucose utilisation/storage in muscle
(too much) eccentric exercise blunts glucose utilisation via "transient insulin resistance"
(too much) eccentric exercise breaks down muscle and then forces all the body to deal with all the waste substrates. Probably not a problem in a healthy individual with good liver function etc. But I guess Ray tends to be conservative when it comes to this stuff given his usual audience/age demographic.

 

[Sucrates]

It damages muscle fibers, the pain after training shows that damage.

I don't have pain after training, unless I haven't trained in a while. Am I doing it wrong?

 

[paymanz]

I don't have pain after training, unless I haven't trained in a while. Am I doing it wrong?

yes you get used to it after a while.

 

[Kyle M]

So you guys are saying that eccentric exercise causes pain? Also, how can someone actually exercise with just positive, and no negative, movement? Just let the weight drop back to the lower position?

 

[meatbag]

Don't have that info, but I am interested in why Peat says negative training is bad but positive is good. He has said on a number of occasions that the negative part of the repetition (muscle lengthening) is stressful, whereas contraction is beneficial.

I think the eccentric portion is what actually induces mechanical damage on the muscle fiber, or the majority of the damage in a given lift. This is when the fiber is pulling apart rather than contracting together (not exactly in every case). I know that the nervous system undergoes much more stress in an eccentric portion of the lift than the concentric.

So you guys are saying that eccentric exercise causes pain? Also, how can someone actually exercise with just positive, and no negative, movement? Just let the weight drop back to the lower position?

yar, like when you basically "drop" the deadlift at the top position. Olympic weightlifting is really a great example (clean, push presses, jerk). Muscle-ups and dropping from the top position gives great results. You can do isolation work with ropes attached to a weighed sled, or legs/whole body by pushing it. Eccentric-less works best with a higher frequency and moderate volume because it isn't as "stressful".

I did eccentric only for a few months and maintained great development on it, mostly muscle ups, deadlifts, jumping and push presses. I think it would be hard to build a great physique with just concentric phase though. Probably sensible, regular weightlifting is best for hypertrophy

I don't have pain after training, unless I haven't trained in a while. Am I doing it wrong?

No not all, soreness may actually be indicative of less development taking place. Lyle mcdonald has some great articles on the topic Bodyrecomposition - The Home of Lyle McDonald : Bodyrecomposition

 

[Kyle M]

I think the eccentric portion is what actually induces mechanical damage on the muscle fiber, or the majority of the damage in a given lift. This is when the fiber is pulling apart rather than contracting together (not exactly in every case). I know that the nervous system undergoes much more stress in an eccentric portion of the lift than the concentric.

Makes sense, pulling apart would be more damaging for sarcomeres than pulling together.

 

[Regina]

I think the eccentric portion is what actually induces mechanical damage on the muscle fiber, or the majority of the damage in a given lift. This is when the fiber is pulling apart rather than contracting together (not exactly in every case). I know that the nervous system undergoes much more stress in an eccentric portion of the lift than the concentric.



yar, like when you basically "drop" the deadlift at the top position. Olympic weightlifting is really a great example (clean, push presses, jerk). Muscle-ups and dropping from the top position gives great results. You can do isolation work with ropes attached to a weighed sled, or legs/whole body by pushing it. Eccentric-less works best with a higher frequency and moderate volume because it isn't as "stressful".

I did eccentric only for a few months and maintained great development on it, mostly muscle ups, deadlifts, jumping and push presses. I think it would be hard to build a great physique with just concentric phase though. Probably sensible, regular weightlifting is best for hypertrophy



No not all, soreness may actually be indicative of less development taking place. Lyle mcdonald has some great articles on the topic Bodyrecomposition - The Home of Lyle McDonald : Bodyrecomposition

I wonder if getting pinned in aikido is eccentric. Your shoulders, wrists might be stretched. In general, the thrower uses muscles about like throwing a ball and the receiver holds their core and whole body together to take the throw. Bad???

 

[Herbie]

Charles Poliquin is believes in eccentric training so a normal natural squat might be 2 seconds on the eccentric then 1 second concentric.

Poliquin advocates examples of like 5 seconds eccentric and 1 second concentric for a squat and the programs I have seen in his books focus on eccentric more then concentric because he believes that the time the muscle under tension in a set determines how much muscle and strength growth can be attained which is 40-70 seconds so to do sets of reps ranging from 6-12 and to take 40-70 seconds per set you need to slow the eccentric part of the movement right down. He also believes that the most muscle growth actually occurs from eccentric more then it does concentric.

The issue is that all the competitive bodybuilders don't train like this they are keep eccentric and concentric the same times like 1 second down 1 second up and have the greatest muscle mass. I have Arnold Schwarzenegger's body building book and he doesn't focus on eccentric training, Pumping iron didn't have any eccentric training in it.

I tried Poliquins methods but they were painful, had built up lactic acid and I stopped enjoying working out.

When I listened to Peat speak about this I went back to just doing what felt natural and it bought the enjoyment back to lifting weights and felt good after the workout instead of burnt out and stressed.

 

[Andreas]

Lactic acid increases prolactin.

 

[biggirlkisss]

so if bodybuilding increases lactic acid do the other benefits out weight that.

 

[paymanz]

some of these bad effect improve in long term.

if i remembering correctly negative phase also causes insulin resistance in muscles but it gets better as they keep doing it.

 

[Ras]

Strength training improved three-to-five-fold with slow movement.

 

[Stryker]

being abit vague here but in my experience using explosive movement while maintaining form , a quick but controlled eccentric movement (not prolonging it) and ending the set once you lose that "pop"
works best for me

i also found excessive eccentric training and using cheating techniques to skip passed the point of concentric lifting to get a few more eccentric reps is mentally more draining and gives a diminished pump.

 

[Herbie]

so if bodybuilding increases lactic acid do the other benefits out weight that.

I think if you train under 42 minutes, maintain nostril breathing, don't go until failure, have adequate rest in between sets and have good nutrition before and after that lactic acid will remain low.

Bodybuilding is a bit of spiritual practice in its self and theres a lot more to it then just lifting heavy waits and punishing yourself.