My Latest Results, And What Do You Honestly Think About Adrenal Issues?

[Emstar1892]

Not sure if the attachment works - please let me know if it does :)

Clearly I'm not completely well at the moment, i don't need blood results to prove it, but I'm trying to interpret them objectively. I know "adrenal fatigue" isn't really considered to be an issue here, but every time I try to research my results and do something about them I'm being told "YOU WON'T HEAL UNTIL YOU HEAL THE ADRENALS, SO THERE'S NO POINT TAKING THYROID/THYROID WILL ONLY MAKE YOU WORSE."

But I don't know what else to do. I really don't feel like I CAN fix my adrenals. I'm up all night with a pounding heartbeat at least once a week, and I get lots of stress reactions during the day, with foggyness in the morning and anxiety/bursts of energy late evening. So clearly my adrenals are not functioning properly, but what is the protocol here? All I find are dubious websites saying cut carbs and sleep more, but I can barely function right now and I don't feel like that's a solution, nor are steroids (I hope).

 

[Emstar1892]

for reference, here were the values 3 weeks ago

 

[Stilgar]

Honestly, I wouldn't try thyroid yet, not because it wouldn't help necessarily, but more because you need to get to the root of your problem. If you go on thyroid, you may get worse, if you don't sort these things out first.
Adrenals respond to environmental cues - they are not the pace setter as such, they merely 'do as they are told', so to speak.

You have an over active stress system, for sure. Think of it more in terms of working on a few select major players first that can help you resolve that.

Firstly, I would try B-vitamins, specifically B6, B2 and B1. B2 is required to convert B6 into its active form, p5p, which has a catalogue of wonderful effects on cortisol, adrenaline and estrogen. B1 and B2 help your liver detoxify estrogen. These three things are your main targets.

Have you ever taken Vitamin A? It is the precursor to pregnenolone and all your major positive steroid hormones. If you start slowly, say 5000iu per day, from a good pure source and use coconut oil, you can achieve an increase in thyroid function partly through suppression of estrogen. You may need to go higher as your metabolism increases, but only if you eat little PUFA. If you can stand to eat liver, that would be a good start, as it is really nutrient rich, but start with a small piece. Vitamin A can block thyroid function at too high of a dose, so you have to use it carefully. In addition, you should be making orange juice, fruit, milk, eggs, coconut oil, shellfish, cheese etc, the mainstay of your diet to keep your metabolic rate up.

If you have those first two in place, eat sugary, sweet and comforting foods. Potatoes and real butter, freshly squeezed orange juice, ice cream, even shop bought sweet cereal with milk is better than nothing if you don't currently eat well. The iron content isn't ideal but you can sort that out later, or have a coffee with it.

In the meantime, try buying cheap aspirin tablets (30p a pack in London if you buy generic), and dissolve one in hot water. Drink it, leaving the sediment at the bottom. It might make you feel better.

What is your diet like currently?

 

[Emstar1892]

Hey Stilgar.

Thanks for all your feedback. It's very kind of you to have put so much thought into your response as well.

I know everyone will disagree with me here, but I just don't think my body is in a state to handle loads of sugar at the moment. Slow-digesting starch like oats and brown rice are fine, but when I eat sugar I just get the most terrible crashes, headaches, adrenaline surges, and it's just not working. I've been trying that kind of diet for months now, and as my results show, things are just getting worse by the week. I can't exercise because I really can't move much at all at the moment - even on the train on my way to work I was worried I wouldn't be able to get off at my stop. Now migraines have started which is making my job impossible right now!

My diet is some oatmeal in the morning with eggs fried in coconut oil, then some avocado on oatcakes as a snack. For lunch I'll have some brown rice with coconut oil and coconut yoghurt. My snack later I haven't decided on yet. Dinner will be a baked potato with some fish. Again, i know it's not the diet people here will approve of as such, but the sugar is literally killing me so I'm not going to try it any more. It's also made my skin break out a lot. I also don't want to be so low carb that it initiates a stress reaction, because that would break me! So my only option is slow starch with fat. I can't eat dairy so that's ruled out sadly, though it tastes lovely. Coffee I wouldn't go near with a bargepole, last time I had a tiny coffee I broke out in a cold sweat and my limbs trembled all over. I spent the rest of the day couch-ridden having panic attacks. Urgh.

The aspirin I will try again, especially now that my head hurts so much. I also have a vitamin B supplement but I haven't noticed anything so maybe I'll try another brand. The one I'm using is by terra nova.

 

[sweetpeat]

Emstar, I haven't been following your story, so I'm sorry if this has already been said elsewhere. But if this is a typical day of eating for you then I wonder if you're getting enough calories. Your body will lower its thyroid function when there isn't enough energy (food) coming in to sustain it. It's a survival mechanism built in for times of famine, so in a way it's a good thing. If there was a real famine.

I know there is a lot of conflicting or confusing info about what to eat, but I think Peat's overarching principle is: eat to sustain energy, using foods that appeal to you and that you digest well. I take this to mean: make sure to eat enough. I think your stress levels and thyroid function may improve with more food.

 

[Mittir]

Both T4 and T3 are low and estrogen can block release of T4 and T3 from thyroid glands
and block conversion of T4 to T3 in liver. Endotoxin and Cortisol can increase estrogen.
Thyroid and progesterone can decrease estrogen. It is better to fix the gut and liver
before trying thyroid or other supplements. Frequent feeding of easily digestible
carb and protein (with at least 2:1 ratio) can lower cortisol. For some, sugar is
better than starch in lowering cortisol. Low thyroid also increase stress
hormones like cortisol, it is a vicious cycle. Fiber can powerfully lower estrogen.

 

[thegiantess]

Hey Stilgar.

Thanks for all your feedback. It's very kind of you to have put so much thought into your response as well.

I know everyone will disagree with me here, but I just don't think my body is in a state to handle loads of sugar at the moment. Slow-digesting starch like oats and brown rice are fine, but when I eat sugar I just get the most terrible crashes, headaches, adrenaline surges, and it's just not working. I've been trying that kind of diet for months now, and as my results show, things are just getting worse by the week. I can't exercise because I really can't move much at all at the moment - even on the train on my way to work I was worried I wouldn't be able to get off at my stop. Now migraines have started which is making my job impossible right now!

My diet is some oatmeal in the morning with eggs fried in coconut oil, then some avocado on oatcakes as a snack. For lunch I'll have some brown rice with coconut oil and coconut yoghurt. My snack later I haven't decided on yet. Dinner will be a baked potato with some fish. Again, i know it's not the diet people here will approve of as such, but the sugar is literally killing me so I'm not going to try it any more. It's also made my skin break out a lot. I also don't want to be so low carb that it initiates a stress reaction, because that would break me! So my only option is slow starch with fat. I can't eat dairy so that's ruled out sadly, though it tastes lovely. Coffee I wouldn't go near with a bargepole, last time I had a tiny coffee I broke out in a cold sweat and my limbs trembled all over. I spent the rest of the day couch-ridden having panic attacks. Urgh.

The aspirin I will try again, especially now that my head hurts so much. I also have a vitamin B supplement but I haven't noticed anything so maybe I'll try another brand. The one I'm using is by terra nova.

Sheesh. Sorry to hear things are getting worse. Forgive my forgetfulness, are you the same person to whom I mentioned fructose powder had worked for some people who are unable to digest sugar? If no, perhaps try that. Have you explored an issue like SIBO? It seems like that could be at play, along with a severe issue with stress.

Many years ago I was dealing with a lot of stress, and a doctor essentially told me I had ptsd. I couldn't sleep, lymph nodes all over my body were swollen, I had anxiety out the ****, tons of gut problems, etc. Despite this I continued to pursue athletics, which of course only made it worse. It wasn't until like a year after my doctor told me I had ptsd that it finally dawned on me to stop exercising and do something. I found some naturopath, who was pretty nutty, but had some good ideas. He essentially put me on a vitamin regimen that included a lot of b vitamins. Like a butt load. I took b12, active folate, p5p in high doses and then the others in smaller doses. I also had a "liver supp" that included taurine and milk thistle and other things I'm not remembering. Oh and magnesium. I high quality magnesium supplement in the absorbable form, I take chelate, will work wonders. I would imagine someone in your state might need 600mg a day. Anyway, while I was taking all those supplements, not exercising, and simultaneously trying to eat as much as possible--anything really. I was eating a lot of starches and gummy bears and just anything. I tried to increase calories by 500-1000 a day more than I needed for my activity level bc I had been low carb-ish and athletic and stressed for so long. My skin got horrible. I had never had acne before this occasion, but during this process my skin was disgusting. I also had increased anxiety for about 2 weeks, would get heart palpitations, etc. It slowly dissipated. I also gained about 6 pounds. So I was bloated and had horrible skin and couldn't exercise, but it worked. After about 4 months all the symptoms I mentioned were gone.

This is not intended to be a yay me post. I share my success with you to illustrate that you might want to prepare to feel worse before you feel better. I have heard the term "start up symptoms" or "detox" used in some nutrition circles to describe the absolute hell that starting a healing substance can put you through.

I think the other folks are correct with healing the liver and gut before moving on to the big guns like thyroid. I think b vitamins and some liver supporting things are the ticket. Stick with the carbs that work for you. Oatmeal is amazing as cleaning out the pipes, and therefore reducing estrogen. Perhaps on a weekly basis try and add some sugar in some form. As I said, my guts hated me for a few weeks while I was loading it up with food. But eventually it turned around. Hopefully the same will be true for you.

 

[Emstar1892]

Emstar, I haven't been following your story, so I'm sorry if this has already been said elsewhere. But if this is a typical day of eating for you then I wonder if you're getting enough calories. Your body will lower its thyroid function when there isn't enough energy (food) coming in to sustain it. It's a survival mechanism built in for times of famine, so in a way it's a good thing. If there was a real famine.

I know there is a lot of conflicting or confusing info about what to eat, but I think Peat's overarching principle is: eat to sustain energy, using foods that appeal to you and that you digest well. I take this to mean: make sure to eat enough. I think your stress levels and thyroid function may improve with more food.

Thanks for your input :) and yes, I'm getting about 2600 each day and am sedentary, so i've got calories covered! FYI i've been eating this way for a good few months now, also

 

[Emstar1892]

Both T4 and T3 are low and estrogen can block release of T4 and T3 from thyroid glands
and block conversion of T4 to T3 in liver. Endotoxin and Cortisol can increase estrogen.
Thyroid and progesterone can decrease estrogen. It is better to fix the gut and liver
before trying thyroid or other supplements. Frequent feeding of easily digestible
carb and protein (with at least 2:1 ratio) can lower cortisol. For some, sugar is
better than starch in lowering cortisol. Low thyroid also increase stress
hormones like cortisol, it is a vicious cycle. Fiber can powerfully lower estrogen.

It is a vicious cycle three days ago i was feeling better and energetic, and ended up doing an at-home dance workout purely for the enjoyment factor as i've missed it so much. when i woke up the next morning i honestly crawled down my staircase, climbed onto my sofa and cried under a duvet for no reason other than that i felt dead...

 

[Emstar1892]

Sheesh. Sorry to hear things are getting worse. Forgive my forgetfulness, are you the same person to whom I mentioned fructose powder had worked for some people who are unable to digest sugar? If no, perhaps try that. Have you explored an issue like SIBO? It seems like that could be at play, along with a severe issue with stress.

Many years ago I was dealing with a lot of stress, and a doctor essentially told me I had ptsd. I couldn't sleep, lymph nodes all over my body were swollen, I had anxiety out the ****, tons of gut problems, etc. Despite this I continued to pursue athletics, which of course only made it worse. It wasn't until like a year after my doctor told me I had ptsd that it finally dawned on me to stop exercising and do something. I found some naturopath, who was pretty nutty, but had some good ideas. He essentially put me on a vitamin regimen that included a lot of b vitamins. Like a butt load. I took b12, active folate, p5p in high doses and then the others in smaller doses. I also had a "liver supp" that included taurine and milk thistle and other things I'm not remembering. Oh and magnesium. I high quality magnesium supplement in the absorbable form, I take chelate, will work wonders. I would imagine someone in your state might need 600mg a day. Anyway, while I was taking all those supplements, not exercising, and simultaneously trying to eat as much as possible--anything really. I was eating a lot of starches and gummy bears and just anything. I tried to increase calories by 500-1000 a day more than I needed for my activity level bc I had been low carb-ish and athletic and stressed for so long. My skin got horrible. I had never had acne before this occasion, but during this process my skin was disgusting. I also had increased anxiety for about 2 weeks, would get heart palpitations, etc. It slowly dissipated. I also gained about 6 pounds. So I was bloated and had horrible skin and couldn't exercise, but it worked. After about 4 months all the symptoms I mentioned were gone.

This is not intended to be a yay me post. I share my success with you to illustrate that you might want to prepare to feel worse before you feel better. I have heard the term "start up symptoms" or "detox" used in some nutrition circles to describe the absolute hell that starting a healing substance can put you through.

I think the other folks are correct with healing the liver and gut before moving on to the big guns like thyroid. I think b vitamins and some liver supporting things are the ticket. Stick with the carbs that work for you. Oatmeal is amazing as cleaning out the pipes, and therefore reducing estrogen. Perhaps on a weekly basis try and add some sugar in some form. As I said, my guts hated me for a few weeks while I was loading it up with food. But eventually it turned around. Hopefully the same will be true for you.

aaah thanks for sharing your story. it's such a horrible period going through this, full of fear and doubt and fear and eurghh.

i'm trying everything you've mentioned, not the gummy bear part as I don't really like those but everything else! and oatmeal ftw i'm glad that things worked out for you also, are you, ya know, "healed?" not that anyone in the world would probably refer to themselves that way

 

[Suikerbuik]

Hey Emstar,

Kind of in the same place myself, also with regards to lab values.
Listen to your body, despite possible contradictive information. Try to write down what works, but don't really over-observe things. Change things gradually so your body has time to adjust. In the beginning I couldn't have sugar at all, but now >50g (in one sitting) is fine, but it took me months up to a year to be finally able to consume this amount without discomfort. Though, too much quick sugar definitely causes unstable bloodsugar, and indeed correlates with symptoms ascribed to adrenal fatigue; however, once I've had cortisol tested it was just fine, even on the higher end, so I too am a bit reluctant... I feel adrenal fatigue is to be seen as mitochondrial dysfunction, also happens to be the place where steroids are synthesized.
Mittir is giving you a lot of decent advice. Consider endotoxin (from slow peristalsis, increased permeability and dysbiosis?) as a HUGE burden to either your liver and hormonal balance (pure mitochondrial poison), you will not get your metabolism stable when these issues persist - vicious circles for sure.
It's too much info and complex to write all possible detrimental interactions, but your feeling will tell you a lot.
For sleep issues, maybe increasing sodium (slowly) can help alleviate your symptoms, it makes me sleep much much better.
If you're really worried about adrenal fatigue, you could have your minerals tested, such as sodium, potassium, renin, PTH, calcium.

PS I'd remove personal info from lab forms.

 

[thegiantess]

aaah thanks for sharing your story. it's such a horrible period going through this, full of fear and doubt and fear and eurghh.

i'm trying everything you've mentioned, not the gummy bear part as I don't really like those but everything else! and oatmeal ftw i'm glad that things worked out for you also, are you, ya know, "healed?" not that anyone in the world would probably refer to themselves that way

Yes. All better now. I hang around these forums bc I've always been interested in health mostly. That saga that I shared with you was about 5 years ago. For the sake of full disclosure I will also say that the naturopath referred me to a dentist (I was new to area and needed a reference). The dentist was kind of a nut too now that I think of it. Anyway, he new about the gut and stress problems I was having and so we did a stool analysis and a Dna swab of my mouth. Turns out my horrible dental health (I avoided the dentists for like 15 years) was contributing to my gut issues. The bad bacteria in my mouth had taken over my gut. So add to that my post traumatic stress, over exercise and somewhat low carb diet and you have a recipe for disaster. So, it was prob a combo of getting my teeth fixed up and all the help from the naturopath and intentional overeating (ala Matt stone's eat for heat) that got me fixed. I've continued to stay up on labs and whatnot to make sure I keep my thyroid in good health and so far so good. So yah! There is hope!

 

[jb116]

Yes. All better now. I hang around these forums bc I've always been interested in health mostly. That saga that I shared with you was about 5 years ago. For the sake of full disclosure I will also say that the naturopath referred me to a dentist (I was new to area and needed a reference). The dentist was kind of a nut too now that I think of it. Anyway, he new about the gut and stress problems I was having and so we did a stool analysis and a Dna swab of my mouth. Turns out my horrible dental health (I avoided the dentists for like 15 years) was contributing to my gut issues. The bad bacteria in my mouth had taken over my gut. So add to that my post traumatic stress, over exercise and somewhat low carb diet and you have a recipe for disaster. So, it was prob a combo of getting my teeth fixed up and all the help from the naturopath and intentional overeating (ala Matt stone's eat for heat) that got me fixed. I've continued to stay up on labs and whatnot to make sure I keep my thyroid in good health and so far so good. So yah! There is hope!

Out of curiosity thegiantess did the inside of your mouth present with any particular symptoms at that time?

 

[tara]

I'm up all night with a pounding heartbeat at least once a week, and I get lots of stress reactions during the day, with foggyness in the morning and anxiety/bursts of energy late evening. So clearly my adrenals are not functioning properly, but what is the protocol here?

Maybe they are doing what they are designed to do? Increase adrenaline in response to low blood sugar and other stresses, let you rest when you have your needs met?

I know everyone will disagree with me here, but I just don't think my body is in a state to handle loads of sugar at the moment. Slow-digesting starch like oats and brown rice are fine, but when I eat sugar I just get the most terrible crashes, headaches, adrenaline surges, and it's just not working.

Not everyone will disagree with you. Several people here find eating more starch to work better for them. I haven't got it all figured out for myself, but I'm pretty sure I do better with some starch everyday than all sugars. I'd say listen to your body and give it starch if it wants. And some sugar from fruit, juice, honey, chocolate, etc, to taste, but not as your only or main carbs unless or until it feels good. There are a lot worse things than oat porridge and rice.

Now migraines have started which is making my job impossible right now!

Noooooo. Sorry. If you can figure out what's doing that, stop it! :) If you've been eating yeast, could that be a migraine trigger for you? It is for some people.

Emstar, I haven't been following your story, so I'm sorry if this has already been said elsewhere. But if this is a typical day of eating for you then I wonder if you're getting enough calories. Your body will lower its thyroid function when there isn't enough energy (food) coming in to sustain it. It's a survival mechanism built in for times of famine, so in a way it's a good thing. If there was a real famine.

I know there is a lot of conflicting or confusing info about what to eat, but I think Peat's overarching principle is: eat to sustain energy, using foods that appeal to you and that you digest well. I take this to mean: make sure to eat enough. I think your stress levels and thyroid function may improve with more food.

Nicely said. :)

Thanks for your input :) and yes, I'm getting about 2600 each day and am sedentary, so i've got calories covered! FYI i've been eating this way for a good few months now, also

You may need more. Normal for a woman your age is about 3000, and you may have quite a bit of catching up to do from previous severe undereating. You could try getting up to 3000 and see if that helps? And if you are hungry for more still, go for it.

Magnesium? Green veges/broths/supplements?
I reckon B-vits are worth trying too.
And attending to endotoxin if things are not moving along nicely.
Gelatine?

 

[Matt1951]

You are low on protein, low on calcium, low on magnesium, low on vitamin a. This situation needs to be corrected.
If you like starch, add some pinto beans or lentils for protein (note, not food recommended by Ray). The fish and eggs are providing most of your nutrition. I second the Stilgar recommendation on liver. Eat a meal, then try a cup of coffee as dessert. Sugar in coffee is good too. Dark chocolate has magnesium. Don't forget calcium.

 

[whit]

aaah thanks for sharing your story. it's such a horrible period going through this, full of fear and doubt and fear and eurghh.

i'm trying everything you've mentioned, not the gummy bear part as I don't really like those but everything else! and oatmeal ftw i'm glad that things worked out for you also, are you, ya know, "healed?" not that anyone in the world would probably refer to themselves that way

Emstar,
Sorry to see you've been up and down and the migranes are the worst.
I wonder if your getting enough light. It helped me turn it around in the beginning because it was something I could feel an immediate change through.
Also if your gut is off some types of fiber and bran can be a real aggrivators. Rays carrot salad has been known to help. I found oats to be a real trigger for me but they work for others.
If coffee is a problem tea can be a more gentle way to introduce caffine. Nettle tea is also quite nice and can offset some of the imbalances. Its a great source of many trace minerals and you can blend it with regular green or black tea if tolerated. The root is a tonic for many ailments as well. Its helped me.
Keep your chin up and sip on a cup you'll be well again.

 

[Stilgar]

These ideas are great, I hope you find something helpful EmStar.

One word of advice that I wish I had known sooner - you can't fix yourself by doing what you have always done - the opposite of what you usually do or think can, or have done in the past, can often be right.

 

[tara]

you can't fix yourself by doing what you have always done

:)

 

[thegiantess]

Out of curiosity thegiantess did the inside of your mouth present with any particular symptoms at that time?

Oh, did it ever. I basically ignored it for years out of ridiculous fear of the dentist. My gums bled.. Not profusely, but they always bled when I brushed my teeth and when I ate apples, etc. Also, my gums always felt.. Weird. They felt almost like something was crawling around in them, which is horrifying in retrospect. But these things would come and go, so I just ignored it.

When I finally did go to the dentist I only had one cavity, but had to get root planing done on gums. It was a long process, but I haven't had any problems or bleeding since then. So so worth it.

 

[m_arch]

Not sure if the attachment works - please let me know if it does :)

Clearly I'm not completely well at the moment, i don't need blood results to prove it, but I'm trying to interpret them objectively. I know "adrenal fatigue" isn't really considered to be an issue here, but every time I try to research my results and do something about them I'm being told "YOU WON'T HEAL UNTIL YOU HEAL THE ADRENALS, SO THERE'S NO POINT TAKING THYROID/THYROID WILL ONLY MAKE YOU WORSE."

But I don't know what else to do. I really don't feel like I CAN fix my adrenals. I'm up all night with a pounding heartbeat at least once a week, and I get lots of stress reactions during the day, with foggyness in the morning and anxiety/bursts of energy late evening. So clearly my adrenals are not functioning properly, but what is the protocol here? All I find are dubious websites saying cut carbs and sleep more, but I can barely function right now and I don't feel like that's a solution, nor are steroids (I hope).

Hey mstar, I remember reading your post ages ago. Curious how you're doing now? Has your pulse gone up?

I've found gummy blocks (sugar gelatin water) and ssodastream water have helped raise my pulse