Is Adrenal Support Necessary?

Shrimp

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My doctor wants me to take adrenal support supplements to see if that helps my low thyroid symptoms and levels out a bit, as she's been focusing on the connection between the adrenals and thyroid after my lackluster response to thyroid meds alone. I'm currently on no medication because I had to stop my 120mg NDT/25mcg Cytomel after being hospitalized for sudden hyperthyroidism despite being on the same dose for several months.

My TSH is 2.3, Free T3/T4 mid-range and I feel awful, with intense anxiety/panic, depression, fogginess, fatigue, weak digestion with some nausea, and cold hands/feet. Diet is beef, lamb, bacon, eggs, ham, gelatin, melon, grapes, OJ, potatoes, daily carrot, occasional cheese or ice cream, butter and coconut oil; supps are A, D, magnesium and niacinamide.

I'm going to get 4x salivary cortisol tested, and based on my results my doctor might want to put me on hydrocortisone. I'm a bit wary of these supplements, though, as it seems that Peat, Roddy etc. think adrenal fatigue is bunk and works itself out when diet/other hormones fall into place.

What are your thoughts on/experiences with adrenal support supplements? Is adrenal fatigue really a BS diagnosis?
 

charlie

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Shrimp, welcome to the forum.

Even though I do not have direct answer, this quote came to mind:

Dr. Ray Peat said:
"If your thyroid is working efficiently, your pituitary doesn't have much to do and you're not likely to get a pituitary tumor, your adrenals don't have much to do, and your ovaries don't get over stimulated. The other glands have an easy job when your thyroid is working right. If your thyroid gets interfered with, you have to rev up your adrenals and your pituitary becomes commander in chief and tells everyone what to do."

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=252
 

Birdie

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I didn't see milk and just occasional cheese and ice cream. Milk is a good way to get calcium and protein. Are you taking eggshell calcium? You might be low.

Then, are you considering a T3/T4 thyroid supplement...

Are you coming from a paleo diet?
 

Kemby

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This is an interesting subject as theoretically if you are taking the correct level of thyroid, over potentially several months your adrenals will repair and you will become more adrenal sensitive again.

Is adrenal support necessary? My opinion, and in no way is it professional, is that as you have said - The system should sort itself out over time when you get the diet and thyroid supplement right.
 

Shrimp

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Charlie said:
Shrimp, welcome to the forum.

Even though I do not have direct answer, this quote came to mind:

Dr. Ray Peat said:
"If your thyroid is working efficiently, your pituitary doesn't have much to do and you're not likely to get a pituitary tumor, your adrenals don't have much to do, and your ovaries don't get over stimulated. The other glands have an easy job when your thyroid is working right. If your thyroid gets interfered with, you have to rev up your adrenals and your pituitary becomes commander in chief and tells everyone what to do."

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=252
Thank you, Charlie! So happy to find a place like this to discuss Peat and related topics. :D

That quote is one of the ones I've read that sparked this question, actually. I can see how proper thyroid function would sort the other issues out, but what if the other stress hormone issues prevent you from starting necessary thyroid treatment? Like when you are running on cortisol due to low thyroid and thyroid medication you try to take makes you have an adrenaline response. Is the appropriate thing to do to use diet along with niacin, aspirin, salt, sugar etc. to dull the response before starting treatment, or to start treatment regardless?

Birdie said:
I didn't see milk and just occasional cheese and ice cream. Milk is a good way to get calcium and protein. Are you taking eggshell calcium? You might be low.

Then, are you considering a T3/T4 thyroid supplement...

Are you coming from a paleo diet?

Hi Birdie,
I don't drink milk because it inevitably results in cystic acne, even when I take it with sugar/salt and Vitamin A. I've even tried local milk from grassfed Jerseys with no added vitamins and I still got big painful zits that I never get otherwise. The eggshell calcium is definitely a good idea, though; thanks! I've been meaning to try that as I do occasionally get muscle spasms and thought that may also be indicative of low calcium.

I am going to start 15mg of NP Thyroid (generic Armour) tomorrow as prescribed by my doctor. I need to start very slowly because my stress hormones are high.

And yes, I found Peat after about two years on a low carb Paleo diet that made my hypo symptoms much worse. Seems to be a common story!

MartinBrown said:
This is an interesting subject as theoretically if you are taking the correct level of thyroid, over potentially several months your adrenals will repair and you will become more adrenal sensitive again.

Is adrenal support necessary? My opinion, and in no way is it professional, is that as you have said - The system should sort itself out over time when you get the diet and thyroid supplement right.
Thanks for the input, Martin! I hope this is the case, as I really don't want to end up on hydrocortisone.
 

charlie

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Shrimp said:
That quote is one of the ones I've read that sparked this question, actually. I can see how proper thyroid function would sort the other issues out, but what if the other stress hormone issues prevent you from starting necessary thyroid treatment? Like when you are running on cortisol due to low thyroid and thyroid medication you try to take makes you have an adrenaline response. Is the appropriate thing to do to use diet along with niacin, aspirin, salt, sugar etc. to dull the response before starting treatment, or to start treatment regardless?

Continual use of OJ, sugar, salt, gelatin, and starting on a super low dose of thyroid is what comes to mind. When I started having the adrenaline response I backed off thyroid and the response subsided. I also backed off the coffee and coconut oil to.
 

Dutchie

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If you like to consume milk&dairy,you migth first want to start out with goat/sheep milk&dairy as it's a bit easier on digestion,but lots of people who react badly to (cow's)dairy find they tolerate this dairy.
 

Dutchie

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Jenn said:
And some people react to goats milk and can do cow milk better.

True....everyone's unique.
I just thougth I migth suggest it as she wrote she couldn't handle any cowdairy :)
 

jaketthomas

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My experience has been a lot of people who think they have thyroid issues, actually have adrenal issues, and vice versa. A lot of people who think they have adrenal issues actually have thyroid issues. Some have both.

There are some general guidelines to look for in adrenal problems, and you hit the nail right on the head with anxiety/panic issues. That's a surefire adrenaline/cortisol issue. True adrenal fatigue usually results in low body temp, lots of anxiety and inability to deal with stress, weight loss or inability to "hold water", being stick thin, sunken in face, digestive issues, basically a lot of dryness in the body.

There are some thyroid issues that also mimic these symptoms, but generally, a collection of mainly those symptoms, means adrenal problems.

I would get off ALL caffeine, and do a lot of stress reducing techniques and activities. Adrenal glandulars would probably be helpful too. Measure your body temps. Very important. You'll likely see them go up pretty darn quickly from the Adrenal Glandulars.

Lots of Peat recommendations actually nourish the adrenals more so than the thyroid. Beef Gelatin, pregnenolone, DHEA, magnesium, to name a few. I'd also be careful about your fluid intake. A lot of fluids can weaken your adrenals, because when you have adrenal problems, your body doesn't hold onto salt very well.

[mod]This post contains alternatives to Ray Peat's views. For a full explanation click here.[/mod]
 

charlie

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Jake, your non Peat advice always runs deep. Your understanding of how the body works and also the philosophies of Ray Peat are sorely lacking.

Dr. Ray Peat said:
"If your thyroid is working efficiently, your pituitary doesn't have much to do and you're not likely to get a pituitary tumor, your adrenals don't have much to do, and your ovaries don't get over stimulated. The other glands have an easy job when your thyroid is working right. If your thyroid gets interfered with, you have to rev up your adrenals and your pituitary becomes commander in chief and tells everyone what to do."
 

jaketthomas

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Haha, my understanding of how the body works is sorely lacking? It's funny how you provide no details, or insight to back up your claim. Instead, posting a Ray Peat quote that isn't even necessarily true. It's sad that you and some others, treat a Ray Peat article as if God himself delivered the message to you.

Very few people who hop onto this regimen get healthy, because most of you do it wrong. You obviously don't know how the body works, based on the fact that you foolishly claim that I don't know how it does. I suppose in my 12 years of schooling and getting my 3 degrees, I learned nothing. One thing I did learn was how to think for myself, and challenge any information that seems illogical. And I'm sorry to the Ray Peat fanboys, a few of his recommendations and suggestions are incorrect.

Some of the suggestions I've seen on this board (and other Ray Peat forums) are downright hilarious. Some of the Ray Peat fandom I've seen is almost cult-like, which is always scary. Ray Peat is your leader, and what he says goes. He's a man, and although brilliant, some of his suggestions lack common sense. I've been able to look past a lot of those suggestions.
 

charlie

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jaketthomas said:
It's sad that you and some others, treat a Ray Peat article as if God himself delivered the message to you.

Why yes, yes He did.

And I'm sorry to the Ray Peat fanboys, a few of his recommendations and suggestions are incorrect.

Oh wise one. Please school us. :mrgreen:

Some of the suggestions I've seen on this board (and other Ray Peat forums) are downright hilarious. Some of the Ray Peat fandom I've seen is almost cult-like, which is always scary. Ray Peat is your leader, and what he says goes. He's a man, and although brilliant, some of his suggestions lack common sense. I've been able to look past a lot of those suggestions.

:lol: No thanks Jake. ;)
 

4peatssake

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jaketthomas said:
You obviously don't know how the body works, based on the fact that you foolishly claim that I don't know how it does.
 

Jenn

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jaketthomas said:
My experience has been a lot of people who think they have thyroid issues, actually have adrenal issues, and vice versa. A lot of people who think they have adrenal issues actually have thyroid issues. Some have both.

There are some general guidelines to look for in adrenal problems, and you hit the nail right on the head with anxiety/panic issues. That's a surefire adrenaline/cortisol issue. True adrenal fatigue usually results in low body temp, lots of anxiety and inability to deal with stress, weight loss or inability to "hold water", being stick thin, sunken in face, digestive issues, basically a lot of dryness in the body.

There are some thyroid issues that also mimic these symptoms, but generally, a collection of mainly those symptoms, means adrenal problems.

I would get off ALL caffeine, and do a lot of stress reducing techniques and activities. Adrenal glandulars would probably be helpful too. Measure your body temps. Very important. You'll likely see them go up pretty darn quickly from the Adrenal Glandulars.

Lots of Peat recommendations actually nourish the adrenals more so than the thyroid. Beef Gelatin, pregnenolone, DHEA, magnesium, to name a few. I'd also be careful about your fluid intake. A lot of fluids can weaken your adrenals, because when you have adrenal problems, your body doesn't hold onto salt very well.

[mod]This post contains alternatives to Ray Peat's views. For a full explanation click here.[/mod]

I disagree with everything in this post, especially the avoidance of caffeine. :2cents ;)
 

repeat

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Hey people, what's up here?!

I find it interesting to read jaketthomas post, and think it's possible that it's not a black/white answear.
can't we just discuss and share thougths and experiences?

This question about adrenal support is really intresting. Some says they are helped in their thyroid issues by using HC (hydrocortisone) for example. I think it's really two sides of the same coin. If we take salt for ex. -as I understand it, loading with salt actually interferes with cortisols negative effect on the cells, allowing thyroid to function better. Probably this also helps with the negative feedback of cortisol and other things regarding cortisol, so we can see improved function of the adrenal gland too...


jaketthomas, what is it specifically that you would say is wrong in the Peat-advice and why?
 

Northwind

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I just got done reading Broda Barnes - Solved: The Riddle of Heart Attacks. He is someone that Ray Peat references. In the book he mentions that while most people respond quickly and well to thyroid treatment a small number of people don't and he would then add a small amount of predisone (5 mg) to support the adrenals and then they would do fine. Broda had a lot of in the trenches experience with patients. He also mentions that the basal temperature test usually indicates thyroid when temperature is low but that it can also be other things, including the adrenals. My understanding from reading Peat is that the adrenals have to step up when the thyroid is underperforming or suppressed, and if they have been doing this for a long time couldn't they use up their reserves?
 

readforjoy

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T3 and NDT made me worse by themselves. I have low cortisol levels with my afternoon reading being below range. My doc says I have no cortisol reserves (not sure what that means). We tried glandulars and hydrocortisone but those didn't help. What finally helped was taking frequent doses of pregnenolone along with T3 as they supposedly work synergistically. I've always wondered why the HC didn't work.
 

readforjoy

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[highlight=#ffff80]"I just got done reading Broda Barnes - Solved: The Riddle of Heart Attacks. He is someone that Ray Peat references. In the book he mentions that while most people respond quickly and well to thyroid treatment a small number of people don't and he would then add a small amount of predisone (5 mg) to support the adrenals and then they would do fine."[/highlight]

Interesting. I'm going to keep that info in my back pocket as the pregnenolone ended up not working out for me. I'm back on HC, but I'm dosing it differently (taking much less, but much more frequently throughout the day) this time and it's helping.
 
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