Iodine Overdose Caused Mysterious Chronic Illness

[Seb]

It's actually not just high salt - the remedy for psychiatric issues due to high iodine intake is really literally one teaspoon salt per hour until feeling normal again. If this means 30g, then 30 it is.

Thank you for the reply. I might give it a shot but I think I am passed the point where that would help because it's been 2 years and the iodine is well out of my system.

 

[Seb]

Wolff-Chaikoff effect: "The Wolff–Chaikoff effect is a presumed reduction in thyroid hormone levels caused by ingestion of a large amount of iodine." (from wikipedia)
With iodine (or iodide), you need to give enough, but not too much. Too much can cause the thyroid to shut down to protect itself, creating hypothyroid.
If this is what's happening, it should improve in a few days.
--
AND, what youngsinatra is pointing to with B1 is on point. If I'm reading right, you're eating 3/4 of a pound of sugar a day. (That seems over the top even in a Peat community, but feel to correct me if I'm missing something.) Processing that much sugar takes a ton of thiamine. If thiamine goes too low, you're into the symptoms of beriberi

Thank you. The high sugar intake is really just a means to fit my calories in because the food quality is so bad here and I can't tolerate many foods. I'll make sure to take my B vitamins

 

[bell]

It's actually not just high salt - the remedy for psychiatric issues due to high iodine intake is really literally one teaspoon salt per hour until feeling normal again. If this means 30g, then 30 it is.

Oof - I'd be careful of that advice. That dose of sodium would easily deplete lithium, which is a fast way to induce psychosis.

On Wolff-Chaikoff, I don't see how you can say "never been replicated", as high dose iodine is used to reduce thyroid function in hyperthyroidism.

 

[Makrosky]

This sounds very strange. But not the first time I read similar scary reactions (not very often either). I don't know what could have happened, if it is the iodine at all. Seems very strange. @Peater this is why I get quite angry when people blindly tell others to start ingesting massive doses of iodine without selenium, etc. it is all "it is safe" and laughs and everything... until something happens.

Anyway, possible causes:
- Simply coincidence. It is not such a high dose. Keep in mind for surgical interventions povidone is used in extensive areas of the body for days or weeks, and some of that iodine gets absorved.
- Lack of selenomethionine thus you damaged your thyroid. But some blood tests and an ultrasound image should rule out this.
- You completely depleted other nutrients. Iodine is like pressing the gas pedal, if you are already deficient in other minerals/vits... and you ingest a lot of sugar... bad things can happen.
- Do you have amalgams?

 

[Makrosky]

By the way, I would discard a herx reaction because of dying candida/bacteria. In my experience iodine doesn't cause it, for some reason it kills them without generating side effects.

 

[Makrosky]

@Seb how were you feeling during the weeks you took iodine and before the crash that left you in such a bad state?

 

[Peater]

This sounds very strange. But not the first time I read similar scary reactions (not very often either). I don't know what could have happened, if it is the iodine at all. Seems very strange. @Peater this is why I get quite angry when people blindly tell others to start ingesting massive doses of iodine without selenium, etc. it is all "it is safe" and laughs and everything... until something happens.

Anyway, possible causes:
- Simply coincidence. It is not such a high dose. Keep in mind for surgical interventions povidone is used in extensive areas of the body for days or weeks, and some of that iodine gets absorved.
- Lack of selenomethionine thus you damaged your thyroid. But some blood tests and an ultrasound image should rule out this.
- You completely depleted other nutrients. Iodine is like pressing the gas pedal, if you are already deficient in other minerals/vits... and you ingest a lot of sugar... bad things can happen.
- Do you have amalgams?

Also this was iodine vs iodide/SSKI which could be relevant.

 

[StephanF]

Question: Can iodine or iodide ingestion negatively affect the gut biome? It is antiseptic.

 

[sixers]

I also gave myself really bad symptoms by taking iodine. Supplementing iodine can be very bad, especially if you are susceptible. I feel that this is not any kind of detox. Rather, it has to do with iodine's potential to increase oxidative stress when in excess (as well as possibly depleting certain things...). For me, specifically, I took 12mg for only 3 days and this damaged my thyroid and caused me issues for months. Ik my thyroid was damaged because my neck physically hurt. This is not uncommon for people taking iodine. I also had hypothyroid symptoms including many that you describe: fatigue, anhedonia, learned helplessness, and extreme anxiety (especially social anxiety - I had/have a lot of trouble just talking to friends). If you have looked at Ray Peat's learned helpless article, you know that hypothyroidism begets high acetylcholine. I found that, at my worst, eating eggs or steak would make me very depressed. I got some benefit from restricting iodine. This seems to allow the thyroid to recover and by doing so my neck stopped hurting, I became less depressed, and had a bit less fatigue. With that said, many of my symptoms are still here (and I had some similar symptoms before even taking iodine, such as white tongue, neurological symptoms, and GI symptoms) and I am actively looking to treat them. In your case, I see that your thyroid is fine so I imagine the remaining problem is in your energy metabolism. This is likely the case for me at this point too. I have been experimenting for a bit to narrow down what the issue is. The next thing I am going to try is alpha lipoic acid, so I'll let you know how that goes.

A couple notes/thoughts...

*Imo, high sodium is not going to help anything in particular, here. I would just eat a normal amount of salt or a bit extra if you want.
*I'll be interested in how you react to b3. In my case, it led to two issues:
- Undermethylation which I believe is from the b3 being excreted because my body essentially knew it wasn't "ready" for it. This feels like obsessiveness
- Lactic acid. In my case, too much b3 gave me restless legs. I think this can lead to some "excitation" type responses and potentially worse neurological issues. What I took from this is that my pyruvate dehydrogenase enzyme is not working well because that sends pyruvate to the krebs cycle instead of turning into lactic acid which is b3 dependent. Pyruvate dehydrogenase is dependent on b1, b2, b3, b5, lipoic acid (or stuff derived from b2, b3, b5). I am going to try lipoic acid because I don't think b1 worked for me, though I am still open to combing that with something else.
*I do think being susceptible to iodine damage is indicative of something. It could be low copper because copper is needed for superoxide dismutase to protect from oxidative damage in the thyroid and elsewhere; however, when I tried copper it just made things worse. I think I am essentially unable to absorb it for some reason.

Best of luck figuring it out!

 

[Seb]

Oof - I'd be careful of that advice. That dose of sodium would easily deplete lithium, which is a fast way to induce psychosis.

On Wolff-Chaikoff, I don't see how you can say "never been replicated", as high dose iodine is used to reduce thyroid function in hyperthyroidism.

Okay, so would 15 grams salt a day be a safer target you think? Yeah I think the purpose of lugols is actually to lower thyroid hormones. I think there's a phenomenon where sometimes the Wolff-Chaikoff doesn't reverse in a few days and stays long term.

 

[Seb]

Just to chime in that the so called Wolff-Chaikoff effect was later never replicated = is likely nonsense and many other organs, especially everything that belongs to the reproductive system, also need Iodine, so you cannot think just in terms of the thyroid.

I don't think this is true. Higher iodine is used to lower thyroid hormones and a higher intake is associated with less T3 and T4

 

[Seb]

@Seb how were you feeling during the weeks you took iodine and before the crash that left you in such a bad state?

I honestly can't remember but I know I was feeling pretty good before taking the iodine. I started to experience symptoms a few days to a week because I was 17 uneducated and taking a concoction of different things. I stopped all supplements and 4 months later all my symptoms finally resolved, I took the iodine again -- just two drops and the symptoms hit me like a truck within 10 minutes after 2 drops. This Doc kinda explains things and there are links to case studies involving some weird reactions to iodine

 

[tasfarelel]

re the WC-Effect, Dr. Guy Abraham is probably not the best source of information, but it's always good to also hear some critical voices: https://www.optimox.com/content/Iodine Research Resources/IOD04.pdf

 

[bell]

Okay, so would 15 grams salt a day be a safer target you think? Yeah I think the purpose of lugols is actually to lower thyroid hormones. I think there's a phenomenon where sometimes the Wolff-Chaikoff doesn't reverse in a few days and stays long term.

On the sodium, the psychiatrists usually recommend keeping it "stable" - it's not so much about the level, as it is about changes to sodium cause changes to lithium. If there are underlying mental health issues, a big sudden change to sodium can be quite dangerous. Personally, I feel much better with sodium, but I dose it about once an hour (about 1/16 tsp), and keep following my body's cues so I stop before it's too much (easy test is to taste a few crystals first - if they taste good, I'll have more; else I skip it). I keep lithium orotate on hand too, in case I feel too "high" from the salt.

And I do wonder about the thiamine, including whether adding a lot of iodine might cause it to get used up, and then the sugar might have kept it from replenishing. When I began adding sugar (and I was taking a smaller amount - maybe 10-20 g), I got old thiamine symptoms back within a few days. Thiamine is required to burn sugar, if you're not able to get benefit from the food you're eating, it's a good place to look

You might find Derrick Lonsdale's work interesting - he disagrees with Peat about sucrose, but they line up on many other things. He sees low thiamine as a reason for dysautonomia, which is what you're describing. Where Peat describes Learned Helplessness, Lonsdale describes "freeze" (as in fight / flight / freeze).
It's a little off-topic in a Peat group, but if you're interested here are some links - How Can Something As Simple As Thiamine Cause So Many Problems?- Hormones Matter Serotonin Syndrome and Thiamine: Is There a Connection? - Hormones Matter

 

[Seb]

I also gave myself really bad symptoms by taking iodine. Supplementing iodine can be very bad, especially if you are susceptible. I feel that this is not any kind of detox. Rather, it has to do with iodine's potential to increase oxidative stress when in excess (as well as possibly depleting certain things...). For me, specifically, I took 12mg for only 3 days and this damaged my thyroid and caused me issues for months. Ik my thyroid was damaged because my neck physically hurt. This is not uncommon for people taking iodine. I also had hypothyroid symptoms including many that you describe: fatigue, anhedonia, learned helplessness, and extreme anxiety (especially social anxiety - I had/have a lot of trouble just talking to friends). If you have looked at Ray Peat's learned helpless article, you know that hypothyroidism begets high acetylcholine. I found that, at my worst, eating eggs or steak would make me very depressed. I got some benefit from restricting iodine. This seems to allow the thyroid to recover and by doing so my neck stopped hurting, I became less depressed, and had a bit less fatigue. With that said, many of my symptoms are still here (and I had some similar symptoms before even taking iodine, such as white tongue, neurological symptoms, and GI symptoms) and I am actively looking to treat them. In your case, I see that your thyroid is fine so I imagine the remaining problem is in your energy metabolism. This is likely the case for me at this point too. I have been experimenting for a bit to narrow down what the issue is. The next thing I am going to try is alpha lipoic acid, so I'll let you know how that goes.

A couple notes/thoughts...

*Imo, high sodium is not going to help anything in particular, here. I would just eat a normal amount of salt or a bit extra if you want.
*I'll be interested in how you react to b3. In my case, it led to two issues:
- Undermethylation which I believe is from the b3 being excreted because my body essentially knew it wasn't "ready" for it. This feels like obsessiveness
- Lactic acid. In my case, too much b3 gave me restless legs. I think this can lead to some "excitation" type responses and potentially worse neurological issues. What I took from this is that my pyruvate dehydrogenase enzyme is not working well because that sends pyruvate to the krebs cycle instead of turning into lactic acid which is b3 dependent. Pyruvate dehydrogenase is dependent on b1, b2, b3, b5, lipoic acid (or stuff derived from b2, b3, b5). I am going to try lipoic acid because I don't think b1 worked for me, though I am still open to combing that with something else.
*I do think being susceptible to iodine damage is indicative of something. It could be low copper because copper is needed for superoxide dismutase to protect from oxidative damage in the thyroid and elsewhere; however, when I tried copper it just made things worse. I think I am essentially unable to absorb it for some reason.

Best of luck figuring it out!

Thank you sixers I am glad to hear someone that has experienced very similar things. It makes me feel much better that I can relate to someone.
A few points:
- I also experienced pain in the neck and the symptoms of hypothyroidism.
- My thyroid looks normal now but it just recently normalized after I started using T3 and some T4 2 months ago. Before that my TSH was above 2 and my T4 was always on the lower side and I bet my T3 would have been even lower due to poor liver function and thus impaired conversion from T4 to T3. If you are open to it, thyroid might not be a bad idea, however, like niacinamide, it might make you feel kinda "excited", and restless.
- I also couldn't tolerate anything with iodine in it including dairy, seafood, and even eggs, and had to avoid most of them for the first year.
- Okay so on the B3 - a few months ago when I took it, my neurological symptoms and anxiety got even worse, but now that my state is better, and I eat plenty of sugar and take thyroid, B3 is helpful. I am always short of breath, but I feel like I can almost breath deep again when I take B3 - I can definitely tell it increases my glucose oxidation and therefore CO2
- Maybe neither of us tolerated b3 well because it's almost like it did its job too well in lowering FFA and increasing glucose oxidation but we didn't have the necessary materials for it. -- it's like the iodine put us in a "hibernation" withdrawal state. I'm not sure about you but I could hardly handle any caffeine or nicotine so basically anything that increases glucose utilization makes things worse for me unless used super conservatively. I really am not sure - you might be on to something with the pyruvate dehydrogenase but that is out of my understanding level.
- Let me know how the lipoic acid goes
- Did you take copper as a single supplement or did you eat it from high-copper foods like oysters and liver? I think having it in food would make a difference.
- Another possibility of iodine damage susceptibility might be low selenium - I might butcher this and I have to look into it more but I think selenium combats the oxidative stress that occurs in the thyroid and I believe that's why Peaters recommend iodine taken with 200mcg selenium.
- The more I keep thinking back on my symptoms the more I see overlap with symptoms of a bad B1 deficiency - it would be depressing yet relieving if it were something that simple so I'm going to give it a try
- also would you say that some of your symptoms resembled serotonin syndrome? - my senses have been completely numb and they are just starting to come back. I completely forgot that life is supposed to be fun. My digestive issues were horrible too which could explain the high serotonin symptoms - functionally my GI tract is just completely different because I have to tiptoe around every food I eat and still get gas a bloating.

Thank you for the reply, and best of luck to you too! I hope we can both figure this out.

 

[Makrosky]

Question: Can iodine or iodide ingestion negatively affect the gut biome? It is antiseptic.

Good question. I don't know. I am inclined to think it doesn't affect negatively from my n=1 experience. But anyway here in the RPforum the background idea (non-sense one btw, but that is another story) is that as sterile as possible gut is better.

By the way @StephanF what are you into lately? Any interesting discoveries? New techniques/products/theories you are using? Please share! :)

Ik my thyroid was damaged because my neck physically hurt. This is not uncommon for people taking iodine.

I am not discussing people having very strong bad reactions to iodine, but that neck hurting is most probably because not taking selenomethionine. It is reported and I have experienced it. I have also experienced that pain without iodine, just by using red light therapy on the thyroid. Selenomethionine always made the pain go away, whether it was caused by iodine or RLT.

 

[freyasam]

In 2014 I took 2 mg Lugol's iodine daily for 1-2 weeks. It threw me into a crisis state and I had to stop taking the Armour thyroid I was on. Suddenly I was unable to exert myself physically without post-exertional malaise. It pretty much pushed me into full-on ME/CFS that I've had since then. I don't think iodine was the only culprit as I already had health issues and a more mild chronic fatigue. But iodine was the straw that broke the camel's back. This was the first time I could hardly exercise at all without feeling totally exhausted or paralyzed after. Also tachycardia, feeling like my limbs were made of lead, etc.

Ever since I've had extreme difficulty tolerating thyroid. It took 6 years of experimenting with tiny doses to be able to tolerate cynoplus and cynomel. And I was able to take moderate doses of thyroid for two years, which helped symptoms, but did not cure the ME/CFS.

However, I recently have had thyroid intolerance return. I had to go off all thyroid for 2 weeks (and my weight has started to balloon because of it). Now I'm on 2 mcg of T3 per day (tiny dose) and I have a bad reaction to it. Overheating, feeling like my skin is on fire even while temp is normal. Anxiety, insomnia. I'm clearly hypothyroid but my body rejects thyroid supplementation for some mysterious reason. I never had this issue until that iodine disaster of 2014.

I'll watch this thread with interest to see if you figure anything out or if anyone has advice for me. Basically that iodine totally wrecked my metabolism and drastically reduced my quality of life, and 9 years later I'm still trying to climb out of the hole. I hope you have better luck than I did, OP. You likely will, since I was in my 30s and had significant health problems to begin with.

 

[Seb]

re the WC-Effect, Dr. Guy Abraham is probably not the best source of information, but it's always good to also hear some critical voices: https://www.optimox.com/content/Iodine Research Resources/IOD04.pd

On the sodium, the psychiatrists usually recommend keeping it "stable" - it's not so much about the level, as it is about changes to sodium cause changes to lithium. If there are underlying mental health issues, a big sudden change to sodium can be quite dangerous. Personally, I feel much better with sodium, but I dose it about once an hour (about 1/16 tsp), and keep following my body's cues so I stop before it's too much (easy test is to taste a few crystals first - if they taste good, I'll have more; else I skip it). I keep lithium orotate on hand too, in case I feel too "high" from the salt.

And I do wonder about the thiamine, including whether adding a lot of iodine might cause it to get used up, and then the sugar might have kept it from replenishing. When I began adding sugar (and I was taking a smaller amount - maybe 10-20 g), I got old thiamine symptoms back within a few days. Thiamine is required to burn sugar, if you're not able to get benefit from the food you're eating, it's a good place to look

You might find Derrick Lonsdale's work interesting - he disagrees with Peat about sucrose, but they line up on many other things. He sees low thiamine as a reason for dysautonomia, which is what you're describing. Where Peat describes Learned Helplessness, Lonsdale describes "freeze" (as in fight / flight / freeze).
It's a little off-topic in a Peat group, but if you're interested here are some links - How Can Something As Simple As Thiamine Cause So Many Problems?- Hormones Matter Serotonin Syndrome and Thiamine: Is There a Connection? - Hormones Matter

Thank you Bell. I kinda ruled B1 deficiency out because I took full doses of Energin topically, but I'm starting to realize that 25mg of thiamine is not that high and I take it every once in a while so it wasn't enough to rule it out. I'm also realizing again how close my symptoms align with a B1 deficiency and the connection of thiamine deficiency with serotonin syndrome; I definitely exhibited signs of serotonin syndrome or very high serotonin. I'll give B1 a shot.

 

[youngsinatra]

Thank you Bell. I kinda ruled B1 deficiency out because I took full doses of Energin topically, but I'm starting to realize that 25mg of thiamine is not that high and I take it every once in a while so it wasn't enough to rule it out. I'm also realizing again how close my symptoms align with a B1 deficiency and the connection of thiamine deficiency with serotonin syndrome; I definitely exhibited signs of serotonin syndrome or very high serotonin. I'll give B1 a shot.

Ah you took Energin topically! I thought it’s for oral usage.
I‘d definitely up the B1 for a while.

 

[Makrosky]

@freyasam @sixers do you have mercury amalgams in the mouth? Have you checked for Hashimoto's?