I want to drop t3 after using it for 3 months. Need advice. I think t3 is doing more harm than good.

[PeterSN]

Really bad skin quality, dry skin. Brittle hair, low temps and pulse, I had low temps and pulse despite being on 25 mcg of t3. I have since dropped it a bit. I still struggle with anxiety and depression, bad bowel movements. Sneezing a lot and clogged nose. Itchy skin/eczema/seb derm.

Hmm yeah, could be low cholesterol. Definitely you should DM me the number when you have it recorded. Alot of your symptoms can be explained through low cholesterol also.

(The dry skin could be from a b vitamin deficiency), low bile is another thing that can happen from not having enough cholesterol. The low bile would cause toxins and bacterial infections to increase contributing to anxiety and depression, building up estrogen and histamine as a result,. causing the clogged nose and sneezing.

 

[ilovethesea]

“Stress hormones are responsible for raising reverse T3, and just supplementing T3 is seldom enough to normalize the stress hormones, so continued use of large doses can maintain improved functioning, but at the risk of developing problems from the continued excess of those hormones.”

This was a quote by Ray posted by @ilovethesea
I think my main issue was rt3. I don’t know why the reverse t3 was super high but it was probably from my anxiety and stress, plus I had a b1 deficiency. I have been taking t3 25mcg for 4 months, almost 16 weeks. And I’m starting to feel worse. The benefits initially were good, then after like 1-2 months it started getting worse. My rt3 has gone down significantly. 28 to 13. But my other metrics like free t4 and total t4 have tanked.

Don’t know what’s going on. I feel alone navigating this thyroid supplementation. Im really stressed and torn on if I should continue thyroid supplementation. I need to address the liver to fix my conversion issues. I feel like t4 added to the t3 will cause more issues by raising my rt3

Just jumping in here... I had trouble on T3 only as well. This was the Mexican Cytomel which was really strong. Initially it was great because I had been hypothyroid, but I remember after a while I noticed it was making me sweat and giving weird anxiety symptoms. Like if I had to talk to somebody new I would get shortness of breath or air hunger. I’m not normally an anxious person so it was really unusual.

I think the T3 raised my metabolism so dramatically that even eating like 2500 calories was not enough to handle it. I found Tiromel was not as potent as Cytomel, but I’m now taking NDT (just due to not being able to get T3 easily in Canada now). I am sure I am underdosed, but I never get those anxiety/sweating symptoms anymore.

Maybe it would be worthwhile cutting back to a low dose of NDT before trying T3 again.

 

[wzuo]

I had similar symptoms to @ilovethesea and confirming that my diet was too poor to handle extra T3. Once a time it gave me terrible panic attack and it was caused by fasting and some exhausting excercise combined. I have switched to NDT, improved diet, added 2mg of cypro daily and now I can handle T3 without problem

 

[dervmai]

I had similar symptoms to @ilovethesea and confirming that my diet was too poor to handle extra T3. Once a time it gave me terrible panic attack and it was caused by fasting and some exhausting excercise combined. I have switched to NDT, improved diet, added 2mg of cypro daily and now I can handle T3 without problem

Would Tyromax be considered NDT?

 

[Lurker]

Would Tyromax be considered NDT?

Yes Tyromax is NDT.

 

[cs3000]

Hmm yeah, could be low cholesterol. Definitely you should DM me the number when you have it recorded. Alot of your symptoms can be explained through low cholesterol also.

(The dry skin could be from a b vitamin deficiency), low bile is another thing that can happen from not having enough cholesterol. The low bile would cause toxins and bacterial infections to increase contributing to anxiety and depression, building up estrogen and histamine as a result,. causing the clogged nose and sneezing.

for the low cholesterol problem i just read something related , maybe this is common knowledge idk but

cholesterol synthesis from acetate in pantothenic acid deficiency may be operating feebly due to insufficient supplies of CoA

- https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/bpb/31/6/31_6_1205/_pdf/-char/en

when they gave b5 to rats they found it increased their cortisol response to ACTH but also increased their progesterone response too. (probably somewhere ~ 200mg?). and they think thats because of higher cholesterol synthesis in adrenals.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0022316623116580

lower adrenal cholesterol (& glycogen) in b5 deficiency

But i wonder if this cholesterol synthesis effect isnt just local to the adrenals but can restore low cholesterol everywhere if common cause is being limited by lack of CoA? taking a lot can tip over to too much cortisol generation (acetylcholine too?) but b5 intake could be 1 key for people with low cholesterol (also i wonder if that's why its helpful for brain myelin? / why we see cognition defects in older age with lower b5 brain levels. cholesterol is a key part in myelin )

 

[PeterSN]

Have you considered low cortisol?

As you know, when you are under stress your adrenals secrete a lot of cortisol and the body adaptively starts to favor reverse T3 over T3 to slow the system down protectively.

When the stress gets very prolonged, some people end up progressing to adrenal exhaustion where adrenal output diminishes and cortisol levels gets low.

Hans Selye talke about this in „General adaptation syndrome (GAS)“ which is the three-stage process that describes the physiological changes your body goes through when under stress.

Some say that when someone gets into the scenario of low cortisol (stage 3 adrenal burnout) the reverse T3 will stay high, protectively, because T3 would increase/accelerate cortisol clearance and depress already low cortisol levels even further.

I am not that knowledgable in that area but I remember reading abou

for the low cholesterol problem i just read something related , maybe this is common knowledge idk but

- https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/bpb/31/6/31_6_1205/_pdf/-char/en

when they gave b5 to rats they found it increased their cortisol response to ACTH but also increased their progesterone response too. (probably somewhere ~ 200mg?). and they think thats because of higher cholesterol synthesis in adrenals.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0022316623116580

lower adrenal cholesterol (& glycogen) in b5 deficiency

But i wonder if this cholesterol synthesis effect isnt just local to the adrenals but can restore low cholesterol everywhere if common cause is being limited by lack of CoA? taking a lot can tip over to too much cortisol generation (acetylcholine too?) but b5 intake could be 1 key for people with low cholesterol (also i wonder if that's why its helpful for brain myelin? / why we see cognition defects in older age with lower b5 brain levels. cholesterol is a key part in myelin )

I have a lot of digestive issues, bloating gas, and histamine reaction from novel foods(flushing, eye watering) I suspect that is probably the biggest reason to my low cholesterol.

I didn't realise the adrenals can create their own cholesterol. I have only seen info out there where the liver creates cholesterol. More specifically lipoproteins(chylomicrons, low density and high density lipo proteins)

Also I don't think I'm producing enough cortisol in relation to adrenaline. I know that when most people do peating there cortisol is quite optimal, possibly sometimes even a bit too low. But the adrenaline on the other hand I suspect probably stays the same, if not increases, if one goes through digestive issues like me, putting stress on the liver.

I have began to suspect the trigger of all these symptoms could be a deficiency of one of the bcofsctors for DAO, I've tried supplementing b6, it makes my symptoms worse(SOB, heart PVCs) I get more than enough vitamin c in my diet as most of what I eat consists of fresh fruits. That only leaves copper. Which can be easily degraded when eating too much zinc, which I did do with canned oysters unfortunately.

I've been experimenting with my diet and have noticed a reduction of my histamine issues if I eat more dried dates. Well it turns out dried dates ar eine of the highest foods of copper and lowest of zinc in terms of the fruits. I also tried incorporating grapes into my diet, even grape juice, I didn't eat any dates when I was doing this so I think my copper was lower then than it is right now. But after drinking the grape juice i noticed i was flushing quote badly. I also noticed a sulphur smell coming from the grape box.

Well it turns out that they spray grapes with sulphur dioxide as an antifungal measure. Ray has said in the past that sulphur is a good way to deplete copper.

I've also noticed in the winter I get much worse. Ray has talked about light being indispensable to retaining copper within the cell.

"His skin was absolutely pink, and his hair was pure white. I think that was because of creating a deficiency of copper by too much sulfur." - Ray Peat

"But the absence of light is one of the things that makes your respiratory enzymes lose its necessary copper. So the combination of darkness and possibly a copper deficiency in the diet will cause an energy failure," - Ray Peat

 

[OLLNX]

I noticed an increase in my bio markers during the first week or so of taking t3. Since then it’s dropped off significantly. My bowel movements were great then slowly it’s getting worse. I am also gaining fat and losing muscle. I still feel quite anxious and even though t3 causes a rise in energy, I don’t notice a difference.

Initially my issues were - super high rt3 and a TSH of 3.11. Also my free t3 was low and my free t4 was high…. I think it’s a conversion issue, so a liver issue. I tried t3 only but i don’t know how much it’s helping and I’m starting to think it’s doing more harm than good.

I just want to get off supplements and eat healthy and exercise and get a lot of sunlight. I am 19. I can still bounce back and recover my thyroid right? I’m starting to think I shouldn’t have even been on it in the first place.

My temps and pulse and still low. Still having insomnia, anxiety, dry skin so many symptoms. I don’t know what’s wrong with me and I feel really suicidal as of late. I’ve just been super numb, I don’t really feel happy and I do feel sad often though. But even the sadness lacks real feelings.

How is your sex drive, if you don't mind me asking...

 

[dervmai]

Have you considered low cortisol?

As you know, when you are under stress your adrenals secrete a lot of cortisol and the body adaptively starts to favor reverse T3 over T3 to slow the system down protectively.

When the stress gets very prolonged, some people end up progressing to adrenal exhaustion where adrenal output diminishes and cortisol levels gets low.

Hans Selye talke about this in „General adaptation syndrome (GAS)“ which is the three-stage process that describes the physiological changes your body goes through when under stress.

Some say that when someone gets into the scenario of low cortisol (stage 3 adrenal burnout) the reverse T3 will stay high, protectively, because T3 would increase/accelerate cortisol clearance and depress already low cortisol levels even further.

I am not that knowledgable in that area but I remember reading about it.

So I suspect I still have high cortisol. I don't think I've gotten to the point where I have adrenal fatigue but maybe in the future I will. My DHEA-S levels are elevated and as I understand, DHEA-S rises with cortisol as a protective response by the body. So I think my issues are hypothyroidism and high cortisol. Which I think becomes a bit problematic since thyroid raises cortisol.

I hope I am not one of those people who respond negatively to thyroid. My temps and pulse have been improving, but there are still many many issues. My cholesterol is super high. My DHEA-S is still high meaning my cortisol is most likely high. My serum estrogen and prolactin are low but apparently this actually means my tissue concentration might be high. Liver function is probably bad since my skin issues are still very problematic, and my skin has been turning a different color. Before I used to be fair skinned and have clear bright skin, but now my skin has turned a different color all over, with a yellow and grey undertone. Everyone has commented on it, my family, family I haven't seen in a while.... Very confused and discouraged knowing I still have many health problems at only 19.

 

[PeterSN]

So I suspect I still have high cortisol. I don't think I've gotten to the point where I have adrenal fatigue but maybe in the future I will. My DHEA-S levels are elevated and as I understand, DHEA-S rises with cortisol as a protective response by the body. So I think my issues are hypothyroidism and high cortisol. Which I think becomes a bit problematic since thyroid raises cortisol.

I hope I am not one of those people who respond negatively to thyroid. My temps and pulse have been improving, but there are still many many issues. My cholesterol is super high. My DHEA-S is still high meaning my cortisol is most likely high. My serum estrogen and prolactin are low but apparently this actually means my tissue concentration might be high. Liver function is probably bad since my skin issues are still very problematic, and my skin has been turning a different color. Before I used to be fair skinned and have clear bright skin, but now my skin has turned a different color all over, with a yellow and grey undertone. Everyone has commented on it, my family, family I haven't seen in a while.... Very confused and discouraged knowing I still have many health problems at only 19.

i had yellow skin when i was keto, the yellowing is a result of billirubin buildup, i reduced my billirubin from 30 which is somewhat high all the way down to 8 which is quite low, i have no yellowing anywhere, especially my eye sclera are very white now. I used ox bile to lower the billrubin

 

[dervmai]

i had yellow skin when i was keto, the yellowing is a result of billirubin buildup, i reduced my billirubin from 30 which is somewhat high all the way down to 8 which is quite low, i have no yellowing anywhere, especially my eye sclera are very white now. I used ox bile to lower the billrubin

The thing with this is that, adding carbs and starches irritate my gut and skin. I quit starches for about a week and I was feeling great. I added like a cup of white rice yesterday, and my skin was itchy following that meal and till the next day. I don’t know where to begin healing and it is overwhelming. I’m trying to take it a step at a time but

In regards to bilirubin, yeah I consistently have bilirubins out the range. Only on my last liver test did it come normal, but it was barley normal, .1 higher and I’m out the range again.

Not sure how I would lower bilirubin when starches are problematic for me.

 

[PeterSN]

So I suspect I still have high cortisol. I don't think I've gotten to the point where I have adrenal fatigue but maybe in the future I will. My DHEA-S levels are elevated and as I understand, DHEA-S rises with cortisol as a protective response by the body. So I think my issues are hypothyroidism and high cortisol. Which I think becomes a bit problematic since thyroid raises cortisol.

I hope I am not one of those people who respond negatively to thyroid. My temps and pulse have been improving, but there are still many many issues. My cholesterol is super high. My DHEA-S is still high meaning my cortisol is most likely high. My serum estrogen and prolactin are low but apparently this actually means my tissue concentration might be high. Liver function is probably bad since my skin issues are still very problematic, and my skin has been turning a different color. Before I used to be fair skinned and have clear bright skin, but now my skin has turned a different color all over, with a yellow and grey undertone. Everyone has commented on it, my family, family I haven't seen in a while.... Very confused and discouraged knowing I still have many health problems at only 19.

also i think you have liver issues, the DHEA-s is elevated when the liver is not functioning correctly, becuase the adrenals take over. The liver gets overworked on keto because you dont eat any sugar and need the liver to make it for you. So if you look at the primary functions of the liver, they are to: provide or make sugar depending on the situation, make bile, convert calcitriol to calciferol(active form of vit D), create lipoproteins(cholesterol), i believe those are the most taxing for the liver.

So maybe get some gallbladder tests done, as well as bile flow tests (HIDA scan), vitaman d test, thats all for now, maybe there are other tests that havent come to my mind rtn

 

[PeterSN]

The thing with this is that, adding carbs and starches irritate my gut and skin. I quit starches for about a week and I was feeling great. I added like a cup of white rice yesterday, and my skin was itchy following that meal and till the next day. I don’t know where to begin healing and it is overwhelming. I’m trying to take it a step at a time but

In regards to bilirubin, yeah I consistently have bilirubins out the range. Only on my last liver test did it come normal, but it was barley normal, .1 higher and I’m out the range again.

Not sure how I would lower bilirubin when starches are problematic for me.

take ox bile to lower billirubin

 

[Bioenergy_Space]

If you are suicidal that is a very serious issue that should be tackled immediately. Because it seems to be combined with some anhedonia, dopamine is an obvious target. Adequate protein and sunlight are of course useful, but more direct things may be needed. Serotonin and dopamine are inversely related so anything that lowers serotonin will increase dopamine. Caffeine will increase dopamine while also improving liver health.

A lack of B vitamins or vitamin A can make someone respond poorly to T3 since it increases the need for both. It seems that your T3 use may have depleted something. The fact that you itch after carbs may mean that your liver is in bad shape, since starch increases endotoxin and this will burden the liver. Itchynes is associated with many liver diseases.

 

[youngsinatra]

Primary hypothyroidism can cause high cortisol. High cortisol can cause secondary hypothyroidism.

You may not have a primary thyroid problem at all, but rather, high stress in the system. (who doesn’t have that these days, right?)

 

[cs3000]

I have a lot of digestive issues, bloating gas, and histamine reaction from novel foods(flushing, eye watering) I suspect that is probably the biggest reason to my low cholesterol.
I didn't realise the adrenals can create their own cholesterol. I have only seen info out there where the liver creates cholesterol. More specifically lipoproteins(chylomicrons, low density and high density lipo proteins)
Also I don't think I'm producing enough cortisol in relation to adrenaline. I know that when most people do peating there cortisol is quite optimal, possibly sometimes even a bit too low. But the adrenaline on the other hand I suspect probably stays the same, if not increases, if one goes through digestive issues like me, putting stress on the liver.

I have began to suspect the trigger of all these symptoms could be a deficiency of one of the bcofsctors for DAO, I've tried supplementing b6, it makes my symptoms worse(SOB, heart PVCs) I get more than enough vitamin c in my diet as most of what I eat consists of fresh fruits. That only leaves copper. Which can be easily degraded when eating too much zinc, which I did do with canned oysters unfortunately.

I've been experimenting with my diet and have noticed a reduction of my histamine issues if I eat more dried dates. Well it turns out dried dates ar eine of the highest foods of copper and lowest of zinc in terms of the fruits. I also tried incorporating grapes into my diet, even grape juice, I didn't eat any dates when I was doing this so I think my copper was lower then than it is right now. But after drinking the grape juice i noticed i was flushing quote badly. I also noticed a sulphur smell coming from the grape box.

Well it turns out that they spray grapes with sulphur dioxide as an antifungal measure. Ray has said in the past that sulphur is a good way to deplete copper.
I've also noticed in the winter I get much worse. Ray has talked about light being indispensable to retaining copper within the cell.
"His skin was absolutely pink, and his hair was pure white. I think that was because of creating a deficiency of copper by too much sulfur." - Ray Peat

"But the absence of light is one of the things that makes your respiratory enzymes lose its necessary copper. So the combination of darkness and possibly a copper deficiency in the diet will cause an energy failure," - Ray Peat

yeah i was thinking about chronic stress = less effective cortisol response so maybe extra adrenaline trying to raise it. maybe the lower cortisol response is due to the stress depleting cholesterol in adrenals which b5 could help restore (but could also tip over to excess if too high). (same thing happens in iron deficiency, and copper deficiency = functional iron deficiency)

ah that sulfur effect explains why i feel ****88 on msm after a while. my head hair isnt but some of my beard hair is copper colored or pure white (can happen sometimes in copper deficiency or functional). I get the PVCs also especially on vit d , and its related to copper deficiency / restored by copper repletion.
maybe that light effect is effect from vitamin d which raises copper import (but needs balancing with vit a for export to absorb, and not skewed too much to 1 or the other).
i just wrote some stuff on copper in the electrical issues from vit d thread (3rd post) i think its easy to miss & vital importance