Low Toxin Diet Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

[Yi at LDT]

Taurine has been my go to supplement

 

[Yi at LDT]

Aleight, placebo could be at play here but there is absolutely no way I feel bad after that. If anything I feel slightly euphoric, calm and motivated. It absorbed super quickly without a teace of residue, compared to my bixen, pesto etc. experiences, the difference is day and night.

I feel much more well in myself then I did an hour ago, no doubt. There were times over the past few months that correlated with the red eyes etc where I felt slightly 'hollow' and ungrounded. I think somuch4food mentioned feeling more 'groynded' on animal A and I think I can see that.

I actually came across the blog post on better nutrition about Grant's theory trying to lookup the carotenoids content of whole food vitamin C sources like acerola, off the back of what Ray had said about carotenoids..

Where does that then place Grant's theory regarding food supply supplementation and autoimmune causation.

I still have a feeling that there is interplay between the various carotenoids and retinoids and that ratios and liver capacity has an effect.

 

[Blossom]

Aleight, placebo could be at play here but there is absolutely no way I feel bad after that. If anything I feel slightly euphoric, calm and motivated. It absorbed super quickly without a teace of residue, compared to my bixen, pesto etc. experiences, the difference is day and night.

I feel much more well in myself then I did an hour ago, no doubt. There were times over the past few months that correlated with the red eyes etc where I felt slightly 'hollow' and ungrounded. I think somuch4food mentioned feeling more 'groynded' on animal A and I think I can see that.

I actually came across the blog post on better nutrition about Grant's theory trying to lookup the carotenoids content of whole food vitamin C sources like acerola, off the back of what Ray had said about carotenoids..

Where does that then place Grant's theory regarding food supply supplementation and autoimmune causation.

I still have a feeling that there is interplay between the various carotenoids and retinoids and that ratios and liver capacity has an effect.

That’s really nice that you shared your experience. I woke up in a great mood after I ate @2300 IU of A from chicken liver. I thought I had negative effects but I think I’ve actually had an infection brewing for a while. I feel dramatically better after 2 doses of antibiotics so maybe it had nothing to do with A after all. I haven’t felt brave enough to try supplements. I don’t have much of a craving for VA after having small amounts several times over the last 10 or so days. I have a feeling VA is contextually essential, our needs are somewhat individual and possibly the RDI/RDA is sometimes too high.

 

[postman]

Aleight, placebo could be at play here but there is absolutely no way I feel bad after that. If anything I feel slightly euphoric, calm and motivated. It absorbed super quickly without a teace of residue, compared to my bixen, pesto etc. experiences, the difference is day and night.

I feel much more well in myself then I did an hour ago, no doubt. There were times over the past few months that correlated with the red eyes etc where I felt slightly 'hollow' and ungrounded. I think somuch4food mentioned feeling more 'groynded' on animal A and I think I can see that.

I actually came across the blog post on better nutrition about Grant's theory trying to lookup the carotenoids content of whole food vitamin C sources like acerola, off the back of what Ray had said about carotenoids..

Where does that then place Grant's theory regarding food supply supplementation and autoimmune causation.

I still have a feeling that there is interplay between the various carotenoids and retinoids and that ratios and liver capacity has an effect.

When I had liver I felt better for a couple of hours, then I felt much much worse for about 10 days, and more liver didn't bring back the good state. What supplement brand did you use?

 

[tankasnowgod]

Where does that then place Grant's theory regarding food supply supplementation and autoimmune causation.

Wherever you want.

 

[Yi at LDT]

Cheap and nasty, blackmores from a big pharmacy chain.

I actually had a somewhat opposite experience postman. I became incredibly sleepy and relaxed to the point of pulling over on the side of the road. The whole thing lasted for about four hours give or take and now I feel great! Liver has a lot going on chemically and contains other carotenoids, it would be interesting to try a pure form. If I did it again I don't think I would go over 2000IU and I would probably take it at night.

Similar in some ways to my bixen experience however this tiredness was pleasant, like that from MB or what I would imagine cypro to be like. The bixen fatigue was zombie like and full of confusion, anxiety etc. The effect was distictly negative and lingered for about a day or two at a mych milkder intensity. I also came up in a rash.

 

[Yi at LDT]

I've definately noticed huge changes in caffeine tolerance and particularly theobromine. I've never tolerated coffee well and always avoided it. I could do caffeine pills but never went over 200mg. One day this past week I would of consumed close to a gram of caffeine, something that I cannot imagine coping with in the past. I fpund there wasn't much of a limit to my caffeine clnsumption whereas in the past I had to be very careful.

I've had my fun. I'm easing back off it with the help of some raw chocolate/theobromine. Caffeine withdraaal absolutely could have tainted my retinyl palmitate experience today. I've got some pate and goats cheese in the fridge for later in the week.

 

[postman]

Cheap and nasty, blackmores from a big pharmacy chain.

I actually had a somewhat opposite experience postman. I became incredibly sleepy and relaxed to the point of pulling over on the side of the road. The whole thing lasted for about four hours give or take and now I feel great! Liver has a lot going on chemically and contains other carotenoids, it would be interesting to try a pure form. If I did it again I don't think I would go over 2000IU and I would probably take it at night.

Similar in some ways to my bixen experience however this tiredness was pleasant, like that from MB or what I would imagine cypro to be like. The bixen fatigue was zombie like and full of confusion, anxiety etc. The effect was distictly negative and lingered for about a day or two at a mych milkder intensity. I also came up in a rash.

No that's what happened to me when I had liver, it made me very relaxed and sleepy, i had a nap and I slept deeper than in a very long time and woke up refreshed. But then a couple of hours later i started feeling horrible and then I had insomnia, joint pain, digestive problems, night blindness etc. for over a week. I've tried retinyl acetate too, it was similar but it hit my joints harder.

Very interesting about the coffee experience, I've also suspected there is a relationship between coffee/caffeine tolerance and vitamin A. Vitamin A seems to help my resistance to all stressors and allergens, initially and with one dose, but then after that it seems to have the opposite effect.

 

[Yi at LDT]

Thanks for clarifying, I'll definately keep an eye out for just that. Astaxanthin has a host of benefits on paper including increasing androgens. I had a HORRIBLE reaction to it a few year ago. I know for many it goes without saying but it's important to note that positive studies regarding Vitamin A does not rule out low dose toxicity.

You couldn't pay me to take astaxanthin again yet others rave about it. For me there was a definate difference in severity of effects between bixin, carotenoids in basil and retinyl palmitate. Great to know about the acetate, that was going to be my next port of call.

 

[somuch4food]

@Yi at LDT If you're up for more trials, sweet potatoes and cantaloups can be used to test tolerance to beta carotene since they are the few foods without lutein/zeaxanthin while having beta carotene.

Tomatoes are also interesting with their main carotenoid as lycopene.

I seem to be tolerating those foods well.

 

[Amazoniac]

tyw used to suspect that molybdenum and manganese are minerals that increase caffeine tolerance. Molybdenum has been discussed 14098125 times in this thread already, but manganese is important for thymus function according to Will, and its needs are quite likely increased under stress:
- Manganese And Its Unimportance In Health


There have been people getting massive amounts of this toxin and stopping supplementation was all they did to normalize the situation. If the excess happened to damage organs or disorder the body, I suspect that depletion of poison A is no longer able fix this, it will require other interventions. While I think that a temporary reduction in "vitamin" A exposure can be beneficial for those that can't handle much or took a lot, insisting on too low intakes for too long will be working against what you're trying to solve..


- Ray Peat Newsletter Archive [:)]

↳ Typhoiditis. Some confusions and causes of "autoimmune diseases"

"The degenerating thymus gland undergoes invasion by lymphocytes and the replacement of active tissue by fibrous tissue, under the influence of estrogen or stress. The process of cellular invasion in the thyroid gland probably develops more slowly than that in the thymus, because estrogen's effect on the thymus is very rapid."

"The cells that make up the thymus are extremely varied, but a large portion of them are able to phagocytize other cells. This self-phagocytosis probably contributes to the gland's ability to shrink with such great rapidity. When other organs are damaged, the removal of debris can be delayed for days, as phagocytic cells gradually enter the tissues from the blood stream."

"Hypothyroidism is an important cause of thymic atrophy, and a thyroid supplement can stimulate regeneration of the thymus."

The need for magnesium, calcium, copper and selenium are probably increas'd when supplementing it. It isn't difficult to not be able to keep up with the increased demand or to fail to realize that requirements are changed. I suspect that a typhoid supplement is more effective for someone that's not actively attempting to restore wealth because there will be intuition guiding without the conflict of conscious efforts to alter the course of the recovery.

There's too much emphasis on zinc here, but what about the other missing nutrients that can be just as depleted (if not more) yet are far safer to obtain as supplement?​

"This correction of the thymic portion of the "immune system" by the thyroid hormone is probably involved in the observation that the "antithyroid" autoantibodies decrease under the influence of supplemental thyroid hormone, but the supplement also affects the thyroid gland, by decreasing the thyroid stimulating hormone, TSH. Excess production of TSH causes an inflammation-like stress, that contributes to the production of the colloid goiter and eventually to disordered structural changes in the thyroid gland."

"Many doctors assume that a person never recovers from thyroiditis, but the evidence is clear that simply giving supplementary thyroid usually gradually corrects the problem. If other protective measures are taken, recovery will be quicker and more complete. When the diet is optimal, the TSH is likely to be "abnormally low," below 1.0 on the standard scale, even without use of a thyroid supplement. Keeping the level of TSH low contributes to the reduction of the generalized inflammatory state that characterizes hypothyroidism and autoimmunity."

"A high protein diet, of about 100 grams of good protein daily, is protective, and protein deficiency is a common cause of hypothyroidism. But too much emphasis on the muscle meats, including fish fillets, chicken breast or legs, and the usual steaks and chops, can be antithyroid by providing too much tryptophan. That can be offset by using gelatin liberally (chicken soup and ox-tail soup contain lots of gelatin from the bones and connective tissues), because gelatin contains no tryptophan. Whey, which is sold as a protein supplement, and egg whites contain too much tryptophan, and can be antithyroid if used excessively."

"Endotoxin or other material absorbed from intestinal bacteria contributes to a variety of autoimmune problems, including thyroiditis (Penhale and Young, 1988)."​

↳ Autoimmunity

"The thymus gland is important for growth and fertility, but it is now considered to be an important regulator of the immune system. As the gland shrinks with aging, the incidence of "autoimmune diseases" increases, possibly because the regulatory functions of the gland have been lost."

"It has been shown that radiation, polyunsaturated fatty acids, estrogens, and heavy metals and other toxins including dioxins damage the thymus gland, and can produce immunodeficiency. These stressors also stimulate the "autoimmune" antibodies."

"Estrogen shrinks the thymus and blocks NK cells, and blocks cell division in thymic cells. Thyroid stimulates regeneration of the thymus, even after age-related atrophy. Progesterone protects against the thymic atrophy produced by stress and cortisol, and promotes thyroid's effects, and protects against many of the conditions that are called "autoimmune." Estrogen creates both immunodeficiency and autoimmune degenerative conditions."

"Hypothyroidism causes the thymus gland to atrophy (Abou-Rabia and Kendall, 1994), partly because the thyroid hormone itselfis essential for the maintenance ofthe gland, and also because hypothyroidism is likely to be accompanied by excessive levels ofestrogen and cortisol."

"Polyunsaturated fatty acids interfere with the formation ofthe thyroid hormones, by preventing the coupling reaction, which converts iodotyrosine residues into iodothyronine residues in the thyroglobulin. The resulting abnormal thyroglobulin is antigenic."

"Animals that are fed diets that completely lack the polyunsaturated fatty acids appear to be free of the autoimmune diseases: their tissues can even be transplanted into other animals with less antigenicity than is normal, so the dietary polyunsaturated fatty acids seem to be involved in the development of the abnormally increased antigenicity of the various autoimmune degenerative diseases."

"Two organs that can change their mass greatly in a short period of time are the thyroid and the thymus."

"The thyroid can be functionally suppressed, and, with stimulation, return to full activity within a few hours. If it is stimulated continuously, it can increase its mass greatly in a few days. The thymus can lose most of its mass in a few hours."

"The remarkable ability of the thymus gland to shrink rapidly when it's exposed to estrogen or stress or cortisol is very probably related to the fact that "cleaning up messes" is a primary function of many of the cells that constitute it."

"Most of the cells of the thymus are very dependent on sugar metabolism, and this is disturbed by stress, cortisol, estrogen, and some kinds of fat. Even under normal conditions, there is a rapid turnover of its cells. Many of the cells that make up the thymus, like leukocytes generally, are highly sensitive to anything that limits their energy."

"Inflammation occurs when the production of debris is too rapid for its quiet removal, as when energetic process fail, or when certain specialized organisms interact destructively with the tissues. The characteristic changes in metabolism, a shift toward the production of lactic acid and the breakdown of protein, are probably as much the cause of inflammation, as its effect."

"Estrogen is an important regulator of energy metabolism, and it is therefore crucially involved in the diseases known as 'autoimmune diseases.'"

"Aging and stress are estrogenic, and this estrogen effect leads to atrophy of the thymus, combined with inflammation. The associated cortisol excess decreases the inflammation, but aggravates the disregulation of the immune system. Serotonin is another stress-related factor that produces involution of the thymus (Bliznakov, 1980)."

"The thymus gland permits immune cells to mature and to become organized. It is a major factor in the regulation of the cells that produce antibodies, the B (bone marrow derived) lymphocytes, and when the thymus is chronically damaged, the production of antibodies tends to increase, but without the sensitive control the thymus provides. Thymus-type cells are produced not just in the thymus, but also in other organs, especially the liver."

"In the young organism, the disruption of a tissue exposes a variety of antigens from the differentiated cells. Antibodies that are formed to these antigens have two very different functions. They stimulate the removal of the defective cells and debris, and they locally obscure the specifically differentiated tissue components, creating a sort of vacuum to be filled by the multiplication of undifferentiated "stem" cells, which repair the damaged region."

"Proper control in the immune system is very closely associated with the processes that maintain a proper balance between tissue growth and tissue atrophy."

"The healthy thymus gland, which depends on a properly functioning thyroid gland, is essential for close regulation of the antibody-producing cells. With aging and the various stressors, the immune system tends to over-produce antibodies, as the cell-mediated process become weaker. This is similar to the changes produced by estrogen (for example, see Ansar Ahmed, et al., 1989). It's generally accepted that the thymus is responsible for preventing the production of autoimmune antibodies. I suspect that its actions are more subtle, and that it is (or can be) involved in developmental and regenerative processes."

"Animal studies of autoimmune degenerative diseases show that estrogen promotes autoimmunity, and that progesterone alleviates or prevents some of the typical autoimmune diseases. Their antagonistic effects on the mediators of inflammation are probably responsible, as well as their opposite effects on the activation of retroviruses and stress (or "heat shock") proteins."

"Systemic lupus erythematosis, rheumatoid arthritis, and other autoimmune diseases are usually corrected by the combined use of progesterone and thyroid, both of which help to restore the thymus gland."

"Although medical people have been taught to believe that aging isn't an estrogenic state, contrary to the clear evidence that estrogen production (by the aromatase enzyme) in many tissues increases with age, an experiment (Greenstein, et al., 1992) has demonstrated that giving an aromatase inhibitor to old rats causes their thymus to regenerate."

"The declining energy functions increase the demand for an efficient immune system, especially when we see the immune system as a regulator of tissue repair and restoration."

"The accumulation of polyunsaturated fats contributes to all phases of this process of holistic decline, from the decrease of the crucial respiratory enzyme cytochrome c oxidase, through decreased thyroid hormone activity and progesterone activity, to the activation of aromatase and estrogen and the production of tissue antigens by toxic products of lipid peroxidation (schultz, 2019)."

"Autoimmunity increases with aging, as the thymus gland atrophies. A program to prevent or correct autoimmunity should also help to reverse the very generalized inflammatory and atrophic processes of aging. Restoration of tissue lipids (especially cardiolipin, which activates the crucial respiratory enzyme) to the high-energy state of childhood would be a central part of such a program. (See for example Paradies & Ruggiero, 1991; Paradies, et al., 1997.)"

"Rather than viewing autoimmune diseases as irreversible degenerative conditions, I think they should be viewed as problems of metabolic energy, processes of self-repair that just need a little support from improved diet and other environmental conditions. (See Hofstetter, et al., 2003)."​

--
Even though most of you have normal blood venom D levels, I suspect that getting a little extra (plus antidote K) along with meals that are more contaminated can help to control the aberrant immune responses (in case you're experiencing such thing).

It's also worth trying different forms of calcium to know how each affects you.

 

[Blossom]

This is my average intake over the last week. It’s 25% of my RDI. I plan on staying here for now unless I get a craving for more A rich foods.
I noticed I used to not like goat dairy but now I’m enjoying it.

 

[postman]

I had some cheese today because I didn't have access to the small list of foods that I tolerate well. It made my body feel very heavy and it made me moody. I also got the usual blurred vision. But it also made me tolerate more coffee, and nothing makes me feel as good as coffee. With the increased coffee intake I now feel like i'm back to "normal" I guess? 1 step forward and 2 steps back? Or 2 steps forward and 1 step back? Or however it goes...

 

[postman]

And now the coffee effects fizzed out, and the VA blurred vision came back, and I can't have much more coffee at all. Sigh.

I wonder what it is in milk that makes me able to consume more coffee. The retinol, the protein, the calcium, the molybdenum... It's not manganese because my coffe tolerance is very low on a rice heavy diet.

 

[Blossom]

And now the coffee effects fizzed out, and the VA blurred vision came back, and I can't have much more coffee at all. Sigh.

I wonder what it is in milk that makes me able to consume more coffee. The retinol, the protein, the calcium, the molybdenum... It's not manganese because my coffe tolerance is very low on a rice heavy diet.

How long have you been low A? Sorry I can’t remember.

 

[postman]

How long have you been low A? Sorry I can’t remember.

I've experimented with it since late summer last year. I didn't really go on it fully until maybe late november. then I went off it for a week in february, took me like 4-5 weeks to get back to where i was after that. So I've been very strict for the last two months, except for the cheese today, and some apples earlier this week.

 

[Amazoniac]

There are various proteid products on the market made from legumes, which in turn are nutritious but many people don't tolerate them. If proteids tend to be problematic and perhaps most are extracted for isolating amino acids, what do they does with the rest? I have no idea how it works, but it might make an interesting food-based supplement.

@LifeGivingStore

 

[Blossom]

I've experimented with it since late summer last year. I didn't really go on it fully until maybe late november. then I went off it for a week in february, took me like 4-5 weeks to get back to where i was after that. So I've been very strict for the last two months, except for the cheese today, and some apples earlier this week.

Thanks.

I eat apples regularly but I’ve never been as strict as Grant.

I hope you start feeling better soon.

 

[InChristAlone]

Coffee feels damn good in the moment and that's it. At least for me. My experiment with lattes is over, now going through fatigue and headaches. I wrote in my journal to never go back to coffee, and I was right and I will likely always be right. Maybe someday I will figure out why, but for now I do very well without it. Maybe vitamin A is similar. It feels good the first day, then go back downhill the next few days, so you take some more and the cycle continues.

 

[xetawaves]

Coffee feels damn good in the moment and that's it. At least for me. My experiment with lattes is over, now going through fatigue and headaches. I wrote in my journal to never go back to coffee, and I was right and I will likely always be right. Maybe someday I will figure out why, but for now I do very well without it. Maybe vitamin A is similar. It feels good the first day, then go back downhill the next few days, so you take some more and the cycle continues.

I seem to get fatigued pretty bad when I drink coffee and I’ve always wondered why. Everyone else seems to feel great on it.