Low Toxin Diet Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

[Blossom]

I agree, but couldn't you say this for any supplement you are taking? You can go too high. There is a range optimal for your body, and you want to be in the sweet spot.

Yes, definitely. That's probably why Ray has said he has seen people improve just by stopping all supplements. I've taken a few breaks from all supplements before and found it beneficial.

 

[franko]

I did but what is your explanation for everyone else seeing this issue so vaguely, while you see it clearly?)

Because I read the books, and then I experimented, and it worked.

In truth, the successful experiment made all the difference. Notice how I didn't make a post 3 months ago when I found the theory and found it intellectually sound and intriguing and decided it was worth a shot. I was skeptical too, but I found the theory logically sound and compelling, so I tried it.

Why are you getting such large effects from amounts of retinol which affect everyone else so little? For example, I had a bottle of red wine and some French foie gras tonight and literally feel as if the foie gras healed me. In other words, describe how healthy you are - if you wouldn't mind :)

There is a lot of nuance here to understand about how VA effects the body and how it will be different in different people.

(Disclaimer: If you want to hear it from the expert, just go read Genereux's books. But I'll try to explain it to the best of my understanding and ability.)

In short, it depends on the dose and the person. Imagine that all humans have a storage capacity for retinol, but each individual person is going to be at a different level, because it depends on your history of VA consumption and your body's VA usage.

So people at 100% capacity who consume more have retinol "overflowing" into tissues and organs, these people already have regular autoimmune symptoms, and that's why ingestion of just one meal of "trigger foods" (i.e. foods with VA) can cause immediate "flareups" — i.e. physical symptoms of inflammation.

Whereas, people who eat a meal which brings their capacity from 40% to 50% probably won't feel anything. And people who are not near "full liver capacity" probably won't have any symptoms.

And I think it should go without saying (but I'll say it anyway) that if you don't have any disease symptoms, then you probably won't notice a difference on VA elimination diet.

Also, another complicating factor is that — and this is a theory based on the reported experiences of the few who've tried this — it seems when you go on a VA deplete diet, some become more sensitive to VA than they were before (just listen to the experiences that the Peterson's report of their carnivore diet in the videos posted previously), so perhaps this is because the body is using this as an opportunity to process the body's stored retinol.

 

[sunraiser]

Here is a challenge for all skeptics: Read Genereux's books and debunk his theory.

This is not a religious debate — it's a falsifiable biochemical theory. So falsify it for us!

You are not debunking his theory if you don't even know what it is and cannot point out where and why it is wrong.

Otherwise, you're not disproving anything, you're just dismissing it.

It's falsifiable to me purely because vitamin A is used in so many bodily functions. As in, we, as humans, will literally not work properly without vitamin A.

If you don't want to call it a vitamin that's fine but it doesn't change the fact it's something the body uses and demands.

I have personally had problems with liver and vitamin A when iodine deficient. I think it can be seriously bad in that context, but it's still not the vitamin A itself.

It's also worth noting retinol in liver and eggs is "active", which is relatively rare in food sources. Other nutrients might need to be phosphorated or sulfated or activated by various other means in which excess can be disregarded.

You could just get your vitamin A from cartenoids to be safe. Many cultures rely on greens and salads for vitamin A.

Also, we are not even close to understanding human physiology so falsifying something often presumes a complete and robust understanding that we simply don't have.

Retinol can absolutely be overdosed with unpleasant consequences, and perhaps it's one of the more unpleasant ones to get wrong.

The necessity of vitamin A in mucosal barrier and ceruloplasmin production alone is enough for me to falsify these arguments.

 

[franko]

I get that it would be ideal for us to all read his books, and I think the skeptics here are looking for reason to do just that. But you have to forgive people for being skeptical of yet another person proposing yet another health panacea. Many of us have been through it too many times already.

I don't need to forgive "skepticism" because there's nothing wrong with skepticism — I understand and encourage it!

I'm just pointing out that a dismissal is not a debunking.

And yes, I totally understand the "boy who cried wolf" effect of hearing about another panacea. But I'll point out...

1. Technically, this is not a theory of a "cure all" because Genereux does not claim it cures all disease. He focuses primarily on the autoimmune diseases and also establishes connections with depression, fatigue, brain fog (maybe those are just brain inflammation?) obesity and all inflammatory conditions.

2. And I'm not sure if it should technically be called a "cure" at all — because, more accurately, it's just the cessation of a poisoning. Like if you were getting lead poisoning symptoms from having lead pipes and you swapped them out for copper and your body healed and symptoms vanished.

3. It's plausible that when the cause of the autoimmune disease is found that it will be just one factor. It would make sense given the overlap of the symptoms of the various "different" autoimmune diseases, the similarities of the mechanism of damage (autoimmune / inflammation), and the similarity of the effected tissues (epithelial).

4. It's plausible because retinol and retinoic acid are proven to cause head-to-toe destruction of the human body just read the "side effects" of tretinoin (an isomer of retinoic acid) for a taste of this:

The oral form of [tretinoin] has boxed warnings concerning the risks of retinoic acid syndrome and leukocytosis.[9]

Other significant side effects include a risk of thrombosis, benign intracranial hypertension in children, high lipids (hypercholesterolemia and/or hypertriglyceridemia), and liver damage.[9]

There are many significant side effects from this drug that include malaise (66%), shivering (63%), hemorrhage (60%), infections (58%), peripheral edema (52%), pain (37%), chest discomfort (32%), edema (29%), disseminated intravascular coagulation (26%), weight increase (23%), injection site reactions (17%), anorexia (17%), weight decrease (17%), and myalgia (14%).[9]

Respiratory side effects usually signify retinoic acid syndrome, and include upper respiratory tract disorders (63%), dyspnea (60%), respiratory insufficiency (26%), pleural effusion (20%), pneumonia (14%), rales (14%), and expiratory wheezing (14%), and many others at less than 10%.[9]

Around 23% of people taking the drug have reported eararche or a feeling of fullness in their ears.[9]

Gastrointestinal disorders include bleeding (34%), abdominal pain (31%), diarrhea (23%), constipation (17%), dyspepsia (14%), and swollen belly (11%) and many others at less than 10%.[9]

In the cardiovascular system, side effects include arrhythmias (23%), flushing (23%), hypotension (14%), hypertension (11%), phlebitis (11%), and cardiac failure (6%) and for 3% of patients: cardiac arrest, myocardial infarction, enlarged heart, heart murmur, ischemia, stroke, myocarditis, pericarditis, pulmonary hypertension, secondary cardiomyopathy.[9]

In the nervous system, side effects include dizziness (20%), paresthesias (17%), anxiety (17%), insomnia (14%), depression (14%), confusion (11%), and many others at less than 10% frequency.[9]

In the urinary system, side effects include renal insufficiency (11%) and several others at less than 10% frequency.[9]​

 

[franko]

It's falsifiable to me purely because vitamin A is used in so many bodily functions. As in, we, as humans, will literally not work properly without vitamin A.

If you don't want to call it a vitamin that's fine but it doesn't change the fact it's something the body uses and demands.

I have personally had problems with liver and vitamin A when iodine deficient. I think it can be seriously bad in that context, but it's still not the vitamin A itself.

It's also worth noting retinol in liver and eggs is "active", which is relatively rare in food sources. Other nutrients might need to be phosphorated or sulfated or activated by various other means in which excess can be disregarded.

You could just get your vitamin A from cartenoids to be safe. Many cultures rely on greens and salads for vitamin A.

Also, we are not even close to understanding human physiology so falsifying something often presumes a complete and robust understanding that we simply don't have.

Retinol can absolutely be overdosed with unpleasant consequences, and perhaps it's one of the more unpleasant ones to get wrong.

The necessity of vitamin A in mucosal barrier and ceruloplasmin production alone is enough for me to falsify these arguments.

Have you read the books? Have you understood the theory? Have you shown where and why it is wrong?

If not, then you are not debunking or falsifying anything, by definition.

You cannot debunk a theory if you have not read the theory.

You are just stating "facts" about the mainstream view of VA, but Genereux debunks the mainstream view — so to debunk Genereux you need to debunk his debunking!

You are assuming that there's no new information in his theory that are not aware of!

You are assuming that there is no assumption you have made about VA that Genereux has proven false!

You're dismissal of his theory does not disprove it.

 

[inthedark]

I don't need to forgive "skepticism" because there's nothing wrong with skepticism — I understand and encourage it!

I'm just pointing out that a dismissal is not a debunking.

And yes, I totally understand the "boy who cried wolf" effect of hearing about another panacea. But I'll point out...

1. Technically, this is not a theory of a "cure all" because Genereux does not claim it cures all disease. He focuses primarily on the autoimmune diseases and also establishes connections with depression, fatigue, brain fog (maybe those are just brain inflammation?) obesity and all inflammatory conditions.

2. And I'm not sure if it should technically be called a "cure" at all — because, more accurately, it's just the cessation of a poisoning. Like if you were getting lead poisoning symptoms from having lead pipes and you swapped them out for copper and your body healed and symptoms vanished.

3. It's plausible that when the cause of the autoimmune disease is found that it will be just one factor. It would make sense given the overlap of the symptoms of the various "different" autoimmune diseases, the similarities of the mechanism of damage (autoimmune / inflammation), and the similarity of the effected tissues (epithelial).

4. It's plausible because retinol and retinoic acid are proven to cause head-to-toe destruction of the human body just read the "side effects" of tretinoin (an isomer of retinoic acid) for a taste of this:

The oral form of [tretinoin] has boxed warnings concerning the risks of retinoic acid syndrome and leukocytosis.[9]

Other significant side effects include a risk of thrombosis, benign intracranial hypertension in children, high lipids (hypercholesterolemia and/or hypertriglyceridemia), and liver damage.[9]

There are many significant side effects from this drug that include malaise (66%), shivering (63%), hemorrhage (60%), infections (58%), peripheral edema (52%), pain (37%), chest discomfort (32%), edema (29%), disseminated intravascular coagulation (26%), weight increase (23%), injection site reactions (17%), anorexia (17%), weight decrease (17%), and myalgia (14%).[9]

Respiratory side effects usually signify retinoic acid syndrome, and include upper respiratory tract disorders (63%), dyspnea (60%), respiratory insufficiency (26%), pleural effusion (20%), pneumonia (14%), rales (14%), and expiratory wheezing (14%), and many others at less than 10%.[9]

Around 23% of people taking the drug have reported eararche or a feeling of fullness in their ears.[9]

Gastrointestinal disorders include bleeding (34%), abdominal pain (31%), diarrhea (23%), constipation (17%), dyspepsia (14%), and swollen belly (11%) and many others at less than 10%.[9]

In the cardiovascular system, side effects include arrhythmias (23%), flushing (23%), hypotension (14%), hypertension (11%), phlebitis (11%), and cardiac failure (6%) and for 3% of patients: cardiac arrest, myocardial infarction, enlarged heart, heart murmur, ischemia, stroke, myocarditis, pericarditis, pulmonary hypertension, secondary cardiomyopathy.[9]

In the nervous system, side effects include dizziness (20%), paresthesias (17%), anxiety (17%), insomnia (14%), depression (14%), confusion (11%), and many others at less than 10% frequency.[9]

In the urinary system, side effects include renal insufficiency (11%) and several others at less than 10% frequency.[9]​

Fair points all. I would like to check out the book. Re:Tretinoin however, isn't tretinoin a derivative of vitamin A? Maybe someone more knowledgeable could weigh in but could this be a case akin to how synthetic progestins are harmful while progesterone itself is restorative?

 

[franko]

Does anyone take Vit. A supplements? And why?

Btw, eating liver is essentially equivalent to taking a VA supplement.

Also many people, especially from a WAPF background, have taken cod liver oil, fermented or not.

Beef liver: 26,088 IU per 100g [Source]
Chicken liver: 11,078 IU per 100g [Source]
Cod liver oil: 13,600 per Tablespoon (13.6g) [Source]

By the way, the original clue that sent me down this rabbit hole was reading about the fermented cod liver oil controversy (which I was late to discover) wherein two famous WAPF people who consumed large quantities of FLCO, Rami Nagel (aged 39) and Ron Schmidt (aged 70), died of brain cancer and heart disease, respectively, and Schmid actually pinned it on the FLCO (think its because of rancidity) before he died.

Someone in the comments somewhere said it might not be because the FLCO was rancid, but because of the VA and linked to Genereux's blog. (I really need to thank that random person if I can find it again).

So some of the reports of people having health problems from FCLO might serve as case studies that of the VA toxicity theory.

 

[cyclops]

How could Peat be wrong on this? The man is a genius and liver is one of his top recommended foods. Can someone email him this guy's argument to hear his rebuttal?

 

[dbh25]

Btw, eating liver is essentially equivalent to taking a VA supplement.

False.

 

[InChristAlone]

Eczema is on this chart in a textbook for signs of too much vitamin A:

 

[franko]

How could Peat be wrong on this? The man is a genius and liver is one of his top recommended foods. Can someone email him this guy's argument to hear his rebuttal?

Because Grant Genereux's VA theory, if true, is a groundbreaking discovery that debunks and contradicts a century's worth of established medical / nutritional / biological doctrine.

Because, as far we know, Genereux is the first person to have figured this out. (If someone else figured this out before Grant, I'm sure he would love to know.)

Genereux first posted his theory to his blog in 2014 and I think it's safe to assume that only a tiny number of people have even heard it.

I'd love to hear what Ray Peat thinks of Genereux's theory. I hope someone sends it to him.

 

[cyclops]

Grant Genereux

What is this man's background/education?

 

[ilikecats]

@franko

• 
  “Vitamin A's effect on the skin opposes that of estrogen.4 There are several mechanisms that could account for this. Vitamin A is used in the formation of steroids, and since the skin is a major site of steroid metabolism, vitamin A might help to maintain the level of the anti-catabolic steroids. A deficiency of vitamin A causes excessive release of the lysosomal enzymes, acid hydrolases, resulting in tissue catabolism.5 Also, vitamin A is necessary for the proper differentiation of cells in skin and other membranes. A deficiency tends to cause an increased rate of cell division, with the production of abnormal cells, and a substitution of keratinized cells for other types. Estrogen also promotes keratinization and speeds cell division. A deficiency of vitamin A can cause leukoplakia in the mouth and on the cervix of the uterus; although this is considered "pre-cancerous," I have found it to be very easily reversible, as I have discussed elsewhere.6 I suspect that the intracellular fiber, keratin, is produced when a cell can't afford to do anything more complex. Adequate vitamin A speeds protein synthesis,7 and allows it to be used more efficiently.”- Ray Peat

I’m sure he thinks the theory is nonsense because it is nonsense..., Ray has always talked about the importance of vitamin A and he’s seen how increasing its consumption has had a positive effect on a very large amount of people (via his consultations when he was a personal nutritionalist and via his email exchanges). You’ll find a lot of positive experiences with vitamin A on this forum alone

 

[franko]

Eczema is on this chart in a textbook for signs of too much vitamin A:
View attachment 9816

That chart also points out of the paradoxes at the core of Genereux's skepticism of the established doctrine:

"both low and high intakes of Vitamin A can cause clinical signs".​

Isn't that odd?

Here's what Genereux says about it:

"But, the one that I found most troubling and perplexing is that the symptoms of vitamin-A deficiency are almost a perfect match with those of vitamin-A toxicity. That seemed so peculiar to me. It would be somewhat like seeing that the documented symptoms of dying from dehydration as being identical to those of dying from drowning. It was just so illogical. Something was just not adding up here with vitamin-A being both a deadly toxin and a critical vitamin at the same time, and with the same symptoms if you get too much, or too little of it. Someone, somewhere just had to have gotten their wires crossed on this one. Another perplexing question I struggled with was why had the human body built such a critical dependency upon a toxic molecule. This dependency was most certainly not impossible, it just seemed strange to me that after millions of years of being perfected by evolution (or by God’s creation if you prefer), that we’d have such a dicey dependency upon this one highly toxic molecule. It was hard to believe that nature (or God) could be this foolish."
- Genereux, PFP, p. 1
​

And whereas the prevailing theory does not have a good explanation for that paradox — Genereux's theory does. His theory explains that the experiments demonstrating "VA deficiency" were unknowingly demonstrating retinoic acid toxicity. And since vitamin A (VA) consumption leads to more retinoic acid (RA) in the body, VA consumption and accumulation in the body eventually leads to the same symptoms as RA toxicity (which they erroneously declared to be VA deficiency).

In other words, his theory is that the basis for the concept of "VA deficiency" was a tragic human error. It was scientists not knowing what they did not know. Is that not plausible?

 

[ilikecats]

@franko theres nothing peculiar about overdose symptoms being similar to deficiency symptoms. Iodine deficiency can cause hypothyroidism... iodine excess can cause hypothyroidism. Similar things with zinc, selenium and other minerals (and other substances). This guys ridiculous

 

[cyclops]

I think Peat has said quite a few times that too much Vitamin A is no good because it competes with Thyroid or something. So yea too much or too little no good...that doesn't strike me as odd at all.

 

[franko]

@franko

“Vitamin A's effect on the skin opposes that of estrogen.4 There are several mechanisms that could account for this. Vitamin A is used in the formation of steroids, and since the skin is a major site of steroid metabolism, vitamin A might help to maintain the level of the anti-catabolic steroids. A deficiency of vitamin A causes excessive release of the lysosomal enzymes, acid hydrolases, resulting in tissue catabolism.5 Also, vitamin A is necessary for the proper differentiation of cells in skin and other membranes. A deficiency tends to cause an increased rate of cell division, with the production of abnormal cells, and a substitution of keratinized cells for other types. Estrogen also promotes keratinization and speeds cell division. A deficiency of vitamin A can cause leukoplakia in the mouth and on the cervix of the uterus; although this is considered "pre-cancerous," I have found it to be very easily reversible, as I have discussed elsewhere.6 I suspect that the intracellular fiber, keratin, is produced when a cell can't afford to do anything more complex. Adequate vitamin A speeds protein synthesis,7 and allows it to be used more efficiently.”- Ray Peat​

I’m sure he thinks the theory is nonsense because it is nonsense..., Ray has always talked about the importance of vitamin A and he’s seen how increasing its consumption has had a positive effect on a very large amount of people (via his consultations when he was a personal nutritionalist and via his email exchanges). You’ll find a lot of positive experiences with vitamin A on this forum alone

I think it's foolish of you to speak for Peat.

I hope Peat will read the theory and evaluate it for himself — same thing I hope everyone here will do.

By the way if you want to do some actual debunking. Find the source for this claim "A deficiency of vitamin A can cause leukoplakia" and examine the methods of the study and see what the researchers used as a supposedly VA deficient diet. Is it possible it has retinoic acid in it? Grant's theory says it's very likely.

 

[franko]

@franko theres nothing peculiar about overdose symptoms being similar to deficiency symptoms. Iodine deficiency can cause hypothyroidism... iodine excess can cause hypothyroidism. Similar things with zinc, selenium and other minerals (and other substances). This guys ridiculous

Just curious: Is there another vitamin that does this?

 

[cyclops]

what makes a vitamin a vitamin by the way? how does it get defined as a vitamin?

 

[franko]

what makes a vitamin a vitamin by the way? how does it get defined as a vitamin?

That's the heart of the matter. That's the question we should be asking.

In theory, a vitamin is supposed to be an essential nutrient that is "essential for normal growth and nutrition and are required in small quantities in the diet because they cannot be synthesized by the body".

So how do we know retinol and its precursors are essential nutrients?

Well, that's what the original research in the 1920s of VA deficiency diets claimed to demonstrate. But Genereux found a huge mistake in the design of their experiments.

He walks through this investigation in chapter 5 of Poisoning for Profits, I highly recommend everyone read it.