Low Toxin Diet Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

[ilikecats]

Stupid. Not even deserving of a rebuttal...
But with that there’s a lot of people on this forum who are pretty cavalier about their vitamin A dosing. Ray has mentioned that vitamin a needs are very much affected by thyroid function. 10,000-15000 iu would probably create problems for a hypo thyroid person. I see a lot of hypo people on this forum dosing 100,000iu which I don’t think is a good idea. Ray has mentioned that vitamin a uses the same transport protein in the blood as thyroid hormone and too much (which varies and depends on a multitude of factors) can suppress thyroid function. Ray only recommends 5,000iu daily for hypothyroid individuals

 

[Diokine]

I suspect the issues of toxicity associated with Vitamin A in this context are due to differences in lipocalin gene sets and exposure to glucocorticoids during crucial times in development.

Retinoic acid has been shown to derange glucocorticoid receptor feedback in the HPA axis and can encourage neural topology that can express as autoimmune conditions.

It stands to reason that restricting retinol intake in such a case could be beneficial. I think antagonizing glucocorticoid activity should effect the same results.

 

[Richiebogie]

Anecdotally I took cod liver oil and ate tons of butter when I got pregnant with my second and he has great vision and is very healthy, at least at age 6 He also enjoys liver once in a while (he's picky on what he likes). My first I was more on the vegetarian side and he has poor vision and stunted growth (I didn't take much of any supplements either).

From my reading so far, butter may still be a good idea...

G Genereux found that the vitamin A deficiency experiments of the 1920's and of later decades used lard in the "deficient" rat food which had the rats dying around 8 - 10 weeks, whereas butter was used in the vitamin A "sufficiency" diet which kept the rats healthy.

However he has found that lard (from rendered pig skin) is rich in retinoic acid whereas butter is fairly low in retinoids and the cholesterol in butter is great at protecting the body from retinoic acid!

He says that 8 - 10 weeks was well before starvation would have ordinarily killed the rats. Therefore he concludes that the retinoic acid was actively poisoning the rats.

Apparently the makers of Accutane advise that it should not be taken during pregnancy due to potential birth defects!

"CONTRAINDICATIONS AND WARNINGS. Accutane must not be used by female patients who are or may become pregnant. There is an extremely high risk that severe birth defects will result if ..."

Genereux concludes that the experiments were back to front! This is why the vitamin A "deficiency symptoms" are the same as the known vitamin A overdose symptoms!

The whole thing sounds like PUFA and Essential Fatty Acids all over again!

 

[InChristAlone]

Hi @Janelle525,

From my reading so far, butter may still be a good idea...

G Genereux found that the vitamin A deficiency experiments of the 1920's and later used lard in the "deficient" rat food which had the rats dying around 8 weeks, and butter in the vitamin A control diet which kept the rats healthy.

However he has found that lard (from rendered pig skin) is rich in retinoic acid whereas butter is fairly low in retinoids and the cholesterol in butter is great at protecting the body from retinoic acid!

He says that 8 weeks was well before starvation would have ordinarily killed the rats. Therefore he concludes that the retinoic acid was actively poisoning the rats.

Apparently the makers of Accutane advise that it should not be taken during pregnancy due to potential birth defects!

"CONTRAINDICATIONS AND WARNINGS. Accutane must not be used by female patients who are or may become pregnant. There is an extremely high risk that severe birth defects will result if ..."

Genereux concludes that the experiments were back to front! This is why the vitamin A "deficiency symptoms" are the same as the known vitamin A overdose symptoms!

The whole thing sounds like PUFA and Essential Fatty Acids all over again!

I was getting at least 3 TBS butter a day which is 1k IU and then at least meeting the RDA per day. Ironically during this time of excessive butter intake (was also doing raw milk from jersey cows) I had chapped lips even in summertime! Taking vitamin B2 helped.

Isn't accutane an analog of vitamin A?

 

[sunraiser]

It isn't just vitamin D, vitamin A and K are closely controlled but work in tandem in the body. Too much vitamin A will deplete you of K, and not enough K will leave you lower in vitamin A (but so will too much!).

There also, in my experience, can be an adverse impact on iodine from taking vitamin A alone, so perhaps that's a deficiency y to consider.

Iodine deficiency will fix with 150 to 300 mcg per day or less (just eat white fish sometime!), just to clarify I'm not referring to the iodine megadose guys.

 

[Waynish]

Did you read my post? I did effectively do experiments of reintroducing small amounts of VA, carotenes and retinoic acid — and even small amounts were destructive. Grant did it too (accidentally) with a lutein supplement.

But don't worry, I'll point you to something better than n=1 "ancedata".

Here's just one of many. It's called the CARET study:

"The Beta-Carotene and Retinol Efficacy Trial (CARET) tested the effect of daily beta-carotene (30 mg) and retinyl palmitate (25,000 IU) on the incidence of lung cancer, other cancers, and death in 18,314 participants who were at high risk for lung cancer because of a history of smoking or asbestos exposure. CARET was stopped ahead of schedule in January 1996 because participants who were randomly assigned to receive the active intervention [daily beta-carotene (30 mg) and retinyl palmitate (25,000 IU) supplements] were found to have a 28% increase in incidence of lung cancer, a 17% increase in incidence of death and a higher rate of cardiovascular disease mortality compared with participants in the placebo group."

The Beta-Carotene and Retinol Efficacy Trial: incidence of lung cancer and cardiovascular disease mortality during 6-year follow-up after stopping ... - PubMed - NCBI

I did but what is your explanation for everyone else seeing this issue so vaguely, while you see it clearly? Why are you getting such large effects from amounts of retinol which affect everyone else so little? For example, I had a bottle of red wine and some French foie gras tonight and literally feel as if the foie gras healed me. In other words, describe how healthy you are - if you wouldn't mind :)

 

[RMJ]

All I did was stop everything else and just eat a vitamin A elimination diet — which in practice for me mostly meant: no more orange juice, no more dairy, no eggs, no pork. I mostly just ate beef and rice / bread / potatoes and coconut oil and some apple juice — and some other minimal vitamin A flavorings like onions, garlic, olive oil vinaigrettes, etc. Also less often I ate other low-retinol meats like chicken and tilapia.

or maybe u just have a problem with dairy

ever tried dairy free before?

 

[InChristAlone]

I was going to say earlier that the pizza isn't proof vitamin A causes mouth ulcers. Typically ulcers result from acidic foods too. I used to get at least a few a yr, I don't remember the last time I had one and I still eat liver occasionally (and pizza!).

 

[postman]

So what can I eat if I want to try this? Rice, beef, salt, and what else? You say coconut oil is ok but for some reason the guy who wrote the books says it worsened his symptoms, he thought it liberated more vit a or something. Is bread ok? Soy sauce? Beer, whiskey, vodka?

 

[Peater Piper]

It seems like even if vitamin A is a toxin, it still has a low level requirement in our body. I'd like to see some of our forum gurus weigh-in. Anyway, this study found a negative impact on the function of beta cells in retinol deficient mice, resulting in symptoms similar to type 2 diabetes. Resumption of trans-retinol in the diet caused a reversal of the dysfunction.

Vitamin A deficiency causes hyperglycemia and loss of pancreatic β-cell mass. - PubMed - NCBI

 

[Blossom]

So what can I eat if I want to try this? Rice, beef, salt, and what else? You say coconut oil is ok but for some reason the guy who wrote the books says it worsened his symptoms, he thought it liberated more vit a or something. Is bread ok? Soy sauce? Beer, whiskey, vodka?

I noticed that mushrooms, masa harina, cocoa, oats, coconut and ox tail all are fine. I just plugged different foods into Cronometer to get an idea. Apples and pears look pretty low at about 1-3%. I'm sure there are many more and that @franko about!

 

[sunraiser]

Sorry but it's literally mad that this is gaining traction. It's such a dangerous idea to spread.

Supplement 225mcg iodine a day, eat some greens and get some sun plus eat meat and starch to cravings plus some fruit and reasses.

Vitamin A is IMPERATIVE for so many bodily functions. You will not be able to create sufficient ceruloplasmin without a good amount of vitamin A - this means you become both copper and iron toxic as you cannot metabolise either without ceruloplasmin as a carrier protein.

Vitamin A helps zinc absorption and it's a rate limiting factor for vitamin D. I have seen it cause issue in iodine and copper deficiency but eating to craving will avoid any kind of overdose.

All experts agree that vit D:vit A ratio should be between 1:2 and 1:20 so even if the vit D need is just 400iu that's at least 800iu per day. We know the body can synthesise 10-25000iu vitamin D in a day when very depleted. Keep that in mind.

The problem is some kind of road block in your current lifestyle. It's YOU it's not vitamin A. Fix the road block, don't create another irrational nutrient fear. This will only make you much sicker in the long run, even if it provides short term symptomatic relief.

**to add - vitamin A, D, zinc and iodine are all needed in sufficiency for a strong mucosal barrier. This is also key in recovery from autoimmune issues. Also eat your vit A with lots of fat so it's properly absorbed!

 

[dbh25]

@dbh25 Firstly, I said "Don't eat another bite of liver until you read Genereux's books."
You cut that part out, but it's important (makes me sound less melodramatic ) .



> "Inferior ingredients"
What are you a Papa John's shill?

But seriously, I'm not picking these foods out as ideal representatives of VA toxicity — I was just asked whether I had tested this theory by reintroducing VA to my diet — and these are the experiences I
happened to have which, in effect, did happen to test "VA reintroduction".

But the point here is to notice which foods cause a bad reaction and then ask: What substances do those foods have in common? Which narrows it down a bit. And then ask: Ok, among these common substances, which ones are known to be inflammatory or to cause bad reactions? That eliminates most of them, and VA becomes the likely culprit.

Genereux walks through this process in Ch. 9 of ETFOH:

"We are going to analyze the chemical compounds in fish (cod), orange juice, milk, and eggs. There are hundreds of compounds in these foods, but we are only interested in the ones that are common to all four of these well-known trigger foods
[...]
Next, let’s exclude minerals, fats, and proteins because the minerals are found in water and the fats and proteins in beef. The fats and proteins are also at extremely low concentrations in the orange juice. Additionally, nobody reports flare-ups being caused by drinking water or eating beef.
[...]
Next, we can reduce the list a bit more by removing most of the B- vitamins for several reasons. One is they are less than 0.1 mg per 100g in at least one of the trigger foods. Additionally, the B-vitamins are water- soluble and are quickly removed from the body, and therefore rarely produce toxicity. [...] Therefore, our finalist is vitamin A.
[...]
Once again, vitamin A is clinically proven, and documented, to produce skin inflammation, as well as all the other symptoms of all the autoimmune diseases combined. Could it be this straight forward to get to the root cause? I think it just might be. Now, if there is a root cause, it sure isn’t spontaneously AUTO."​

Could there still be some other substance common to trigger foods which causes this inflammation / flare-ups? Maybe, but what? And the more you learn about retinol and its effects, the more silly it becomes to keep looking for a mystery chemical with unproven effects rather than focus on the pile of research proving that VA directly causes many of the symptoms of many autoimmune diseases.

I just ate a Big Mac with fries, it has 530 IU Vitamin A. I just threw up.
Vitamin A is a problem.

 

[Blossom]

literally mad t

Try not to let it get to you. It's just a discussion. There are lots of things discussed here that would have bothered me a few years ago like the carnivore diet and men rubbing estrogen on their balding heads but anymore I just see it as a way for people to work through different ideas. Thanks for sharing your balanced perspective.

I just ate a Big Mac with fries, it has 530 IU Vitamin A. I just threw up.
Vitamin A is a problem.

That's a good one!

 

[postman]

Sorry but it's literally mad that this is gaining traction. It's such a dangerous idea to spread.

Supplement 225mcg iodine a day, eat some greens and get some sun plus eat meat and starch to cravings plus some fruit and reasses.

Vitamin A is IMPERATIVE for so many bodily functions. You will not be able to create sufficient ceruloplasmin without a good amount of vitamin A - this means you become both copper and iron toxic as you cannot metabolise either without ceruloplasmin as a carrier protein.

Vitamin A helps zinc absorption and it's a rate limiting factor for vitamin D. I have seen it cause issue in iodine and copper deficiency but eating to craving will avoid any kind of overdose.

All experts agree that vit D:vit A ratio should be between 1:2 and 1:20 so even if the vit D need is just 400iu that's at least 800iu per day. We know the body can synthesise 10-25000iu vitamin D in a day when very depleted. Keep that in mind.

The problem is some kind of road block in your current lifestyle. It's YOU it's not vitamin A. Fix the road block, don't create another irrational nutrient fear. This will only make you much sicker in the long run, even if it provides short term symptomatic relief.

**to add - vitamin A, D, zinc and iodine are all needed in sufficiency for a strong mucosal barrier. This is also key in recovery from autoimmune issues. Also eat your vit A with lots of fat so it's properly absorbed!

Lol and don't forget to eat enough omega 3 so you can make eicosanoids!

 

[Such_Saturation]

Sorry but it's literally mad that this is gaining traction

People are bored, I tell you.

 

[cyclops]

How can any vitamin be so bad that it must be completely avoided? It's a vitamin for crying out loud! They'd have to rename it!

 

[Tenacity]

Why would the body convert carotene into retinol if retinol were a poison?

 

[Blossom]

Chapter 5 of his free ebook Poisoning for Profits explains in detail why in his opinion the original rat deficiency studies from the 1920's were not only flawed but actually contained vitamin A that had been oxidized into retinoic acid (isotretinoin) via the processing methods used on the lard and milk casein. So essentially he is saying the rats were never put on a deficiency diet in the first place. The researchers believed they had done that through their processing methods but at the time what they didn't realize is that although vitamin A normally fluoresces when it's converted to retinoic acid it does not and in their analysis of the ingredients they wrongly concluded a complete absence of vitamin A. It is quite interesting to read his summary of the early studies.

 

[Richiebogie]

Perhaps Vitamin A is like PUFA...

Is it almost impossible to avoid?

If there is a true minimum vitamin A requirement are we automatically covered by eating just 100g of fruit, veggies or animal products?

Just as Peat suggests we don't get hypnotized by flashy fish oil salesmen, maybe we should be wary of vitamin A supplements...

Just as Peat suggests that force feeding ourselves soy milk, sunflower seeds, walnuts and oats is not a guaranteed path to health, maybe we can make ourselves sick on 3oz liver, grated carrot and the leftover juice from cooked spinach?