Anti-Peat Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

Discussion in 'Debate - Anti-Peat' started by franko, Jul 8, 2018.

  1. dbh25

    dbh25 Member

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    Does anyone take Vit. A supplements? And why?
     
  2. Richiebogie

    Richiebogie Member

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    Yes, it seems to be quite popular on this site, though niacinamide, caffeine, aspirin and vitamin e would be more popular...

    Haidut sells retinil which has retinyl acetate. This is a form supposed to help with autism...

    Accutane is prescribed for acne. This is almost the same as retinoic acid which Genereux believes is the most dangerous form.

    Anyhow this association between vitamin A and healthy skin is now part of Western culture.

    A link between eating carrots and excellent eyesight goes back a bit further...

    Ray Peat has warned about beta carotene but this thread is the first time I have encountered any sort of underground animal (preformed) retinoid resistance!

    Look out for people wearing upside down A's on their hats or around their necks!

    Jokes aside, Genereux writes about babies dying from vitamin A injections in South East Asia sponsored by the West...

    So his message will probably meet the same backlash as antivac campaigners have received... being ignored or being accused of being anti-science.
     
  3. dbh25

    dbh25 Member

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    Thanks, I have seen the posts on taking Vit D & K supplements. But I always assumed the right amount of Vit A can be obtained from food.
     
  4. postman

    postman Member

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    We should make a list of zero or near zero vitamin a foods.

    Zero vitamin a:
    White rice
    Brown rice
    Kidney beans
    Pinto beans
    Coffee
    White sugar
    Honey
    Cacao
    Mushrooms

    Coconut oil (yet the author had problems with it?)
    Beef (yet the author thinks there is a small amount of vitamin a in this, why?)
    Raisins (?)
    Cauliflower (needs to be cooked 40+ minutes)

    Olive oil (too much MUFA)
    Oats (too much PUFA)
    Peanuts (too much PUFA)
    Macadamia nuts (too much MUFA)
    Hemp seeds (too much PUFA)


    Very low vitamin a:
    Apple juice - 1 IU per 100g (strange because 100g of apple has 54 IU? What about retinoids and such?)
    White corn flour - 3 IU per 100g (should include masa harina? whole-grain yellow corn flour has 70x the vitamin a)
    Skinless potatoes - 3 IU per 100g
    Chicken breast - 21 IU per 100g
    Turkey breast - 33 IU per 100g
     
  5. sugarbabe

    sugarbabe Member

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    I don't think you can equate the backlash with anitvax campaigners, vitamin A is found in many animal foods. People have been eating liver for millennia.
     
  6. Richiebogie

    Richiebogie Member

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    I agree that millennia is your friend when eating a carrot or even 3oz liver as it gives our bodies a chance to get rid of any excess retinoids in some sort of organised innate way.

    It is probably similar to eating a walnut.

    However swallowing a capsule of pure vitamin A or injecting 3 month olds with 100000 IU of retinol may bypass our evolutionally acquired safeguards.

    Mass injecting a population with Vitamin A in spite of the occasional death is very similar to the philosophy of vaccination, where the suffering of some is justified by the supposed benefits to the many!

    It's a socialist philosophy that may not have been looked at too favorably by Thomas Jefferson et al!

    At least you would want to know the true risks and benefits and not rely on people with vested interests and faith in bureaucracy.
     
  7. yerrag

    yerrag Member

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    Is once a week liver or oysters too much? Isn't this what Ray Peat suggests?I used to wonder if this is too little, but maybe this is just right, and wouldn't lead to Vitamin A overdose. In thise sense, you can still reconcile the ideas of Ray Peat and Generaux. Ray Peat is advising against deficiency, whereas Generaux is advising against overdosing on it.
     
  8. postman

    postman Member

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    But Generaux is saying it is toxic and pretty much impossible to be deficient, kind of like how Ray Peat decries PUFAs.
     
  9. yerrag

    yerrag Member

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    Since I've always had one egg daily, and been drinking a cup of milk daily and liver/oysters once a week for 2 years since Peating, I may need to be watching out for symptoms of Vitamin A toxicity. But then again, if my thyroid is fine and I'm metabolizing well, with temps at 37C, and being in the sunlit tropics, it may never happen. Not saying I'll always be free from symptoms if I keep it up though. But the book is a long read, and I have to make sure I read it.
     
  10. raypeatclips

    raypeatclips Member

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    Vitamin D council considers 30 ng/ml deficient, but 31 ng/ml is the cut off point for being insufficient but I would still expect D levels to play a big role in this, seeing as you're not in sufficient D levels range.

    Also that pizza anecdote about vitamin A was really, really stupid.
     
  11. raypeatclips

    raypeatclips Member

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    Don't worry about liver, just don't eat little cesars pizza, one of the most nutritional powerhouses in the world of vitamin A.
     
  12. Rick_F

    Rick_F Member

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    Has anyone looked for some correlation on this stuff with other sources?

    Peat's work is backed up by many studies, and/or strong anecdotal evidence and the work of many people in varying fields, and forms a pretty cohesive, understandable model of biological systems. I'm saying this because whether or not this book on vitamin A toxicity seems credible, it is one persons work. It's easy to make a compelling rhetorical argument for something in isolation.

    Perhaps we -and Ray Peat- do need to overturn our idea of Vitamin A, but if that's the case we should see more evidence for Genereux's theory. Perhaps someone ought to email Peat about this?
     
  13. postman

    postman Member

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    Have you read his his books?
     
  14. sugarbabe

    sugarbabe Member

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    Yes you could compare the vitamin A injections, I was just thinking about the paranoia of vitamin A in general. The only two fat solubles I feel safe supplementing (and not everyday) are K2 and E.
     
  15. OP
    franko

    franko Member

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    Here is a challenge for all skeptics: Read Genereux's books and debunk his theory.

    This is not a religious debate — it's a falsifiable biochemical theory. So falsify it for us!

    You are not debunking his theory if you don't even know what it is and cannot point out where and why it is wrong.

    Otherwise, you're not disproving anything, you're just dismissing it.
     
  16. Blossom

    Blossom Moderator

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    From reading parts of two of his free ebooks over the last couple days I don't agree with him on everything but he makes some compelling arguments about vitamin A. I don't think everyone needs to be concerned but I'm open to exploring further the *possibility* that some people with certain health problems that have also been taking vitamin A supplements and using vitamin A derived pharmaceutical drugs (both at the same time for years) might be suffering from a toxicity.

    I did a multivitamin and retin-a daily for over 20 years (sadly repeated this again in 2017) and have autoimmune diseases so his theory interests me personally. I've had a fairly high intake of vitamin A since discovering Peat. Last weeks Cronometer snapshot showed I averaged 400% DV not counting my weekly dose of simply A. I think I could benefit or minimally do no harm to myself by going low for a three week trial. I'm wary of the consequences of people in general becoming overly concerned though.

    I truly hope he is wrong. He makes a good case though and is providing the information for free. Free doesn't make it correct but it gives him more credibility in my mind. He isn't part of the medical field either where he would have been indoctrinated into certain ideas so there's that too. No offense to anyone because I work in the field myself. I do think we all should be mindful of our choices with all the confusion in the world. Not to be cliche but Perceive, Think, Act and always keep your personal context in mind.

    I'd love to hear Ray's thoughts and also get input from @Ella.
     
  17. Rick_F

    Rick_F Member

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    In the day since this was posted? No I haven't, but at some point when I've got time I'd like to do that. I'm advising caution at buying into any idea like this that points to one "vitamin" or toxin or whatever as the one big source of myriad problems. Many of us believe Peats ideas because we've researched and learned about them here and elsewhere. Therefore if someone is going to change their habits based on Genereux's ideas they should do similar diligence.
     
  18. OP
    franko

    franko Member

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    Yes, it's known as a vitamin — but the question is WHY?

    The retinol molecule didn't just jump off a microscope and introduce itself: "Hi, my name is Vitamin A".

    No, human beings gave it that name.

    Genereux's theory is: They made a mistake. A HUGE mistake. A "100s of millions of people getting sick and dying young" mistake.

    Which really makes you think: When the nutritional establishment declares a substance a "vitamin" (and then the government introduces mandatory fortification of staple foods with it [e.g. low fat milk and breakfast cereal]) they better be absolutely 100% positive it's actually good for us, otherwise the results could be catastrophic.

    This is the heart of the matter.
    It helps explain why this problem is so entrenched and insidious.
    It helps explain why tens of millions of people are sick and dying with no cure in sight (unless you've read Genereux).

    When your getting epidemic levels of sick people with no cure and no known cause (other than flimsy: "it's autoimmune" BS), it makes sense that when someone finally figures out the cause and the cure, it's going to be "out of the box", because all the easy, obvious explanations have been tried (and failed).
     
  19. Rick_F

    Rick_F Member

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    I get that it would be ideal for us to all read his books, and I think the skeptics here are looking for reason to do just that. But you have to forgive people for being skeptical of yet another person proposing yet another health panacea. Many of us have been through it too many times already.
     
  20. dbh25

    dbh25 Member

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    I agree, but couldn't you say this for any supplement you are taking? You can go too high. There is a range optimal for your body, and you want to be in the sweet spot.
     
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