Low Toxin Diet Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

[TheCalciumCad]

Forgive me if this an ignorant question, does blue light use up vitamin A then?

Pretty much everyone I spoke to with Vit A toxicity symptoms was also blue light toxic aka too much screen time vs sunlight exposure, likely compounded by the last 3 years. So people with Vit A toxicity symptoms should probably focus on lowering screen time, maximising sunlight exposure and keeping Vit A intake low enough to relieve symptoms instead of completely throwing it out all together.

 

[pondering]

Pretty much everyone I spoke to with Vit A toxicity symptoms was also blue light toxic aka too much screen time vs sunlight exposure, likely compounded by the last 3 years. So people with Vit A toxicity symptoms should probably focus on lowering screen time, maximising sunlight exposure and keeping Vit A intake low enough to relieve symptoms instead of completely throwing it out all together.

Is the assumption that those who are blue light toxic have low Vit D?

I def need to reduce my screen time in general. But I’ve likely got high Vit D from sun already, and I’m suspecting Vit A toxicity. Can there be any harm in further increasing D from additional sun exposure you think?

I am trying to lower my Vit A intake and I agree that throwing it out altogether would not be prudent for me.

 

[Ideonaut]

I know they're not. Those anecdotes were not intended to prove the theory. They are nothing compared to the evidence and theory in Genereux's books.

I said in my original post that I don't consider my personal experience to be adequate proof (to anyone but me).

I just want to urge people to read Genereux's material for themselves, but I'm willing to answer questions about my experience if people ask (hence my pizza and yogurt and watermelon anecdotes).

"I just want to urge people to read Genereux's material for themselves . . ." I read Genereux's books and found them thoroughly convincing. But I got the impression from Peat and Haidut -- both so cavalierly dismissive -- that they hadn't even bothered to read them. I thought it was striking how similar Genereux's account of the fraudulent establishment of vitamin A as a vitamin (with the requirement of essentiality) was to Peat's account of the fraudulent establishment of "essential fatty acids."

 

[TheCalciumCad]

Is the assumption that those who are blue light toxic have low Vit D?

I def need to reduce my screen time in general. But I’ve likely got high Vit D from sun already, and I’m suspecting Vit A toxicity. Can there be any harm in further increasing D from additional sun exposure you think?

I am trying to lower my Vit A intake and I agree that throwing it out altogether would not be prudent for me.

More sun and less blue light is what you need, i'd experiment with lowering Vit A intake aswell to see if you notice any difference.

 

[pondering]

@TheCalciumCad Will do, thank you.

 

[GreekDemiGod]

Can anyone distill what is the framework of Garret Smith, the lens through which he views nutrition, anti-aging, health optimization? Is it all about avoiding VA? Does he think that is the anti-aging cure, and protects you from all diseases?
No disregard for PUFA vs SFA?
What is his take on gut health?
Testosterone?

Doesn't seem like the testimonials from G. Genereux's forum are that impressive.

 

[youngsinatra]

Can anyone distill what is the framework of Garret Smith, the lens through which he views nutrition, anti-aging, health optimization? Is it all about avoiding VA? Does he think that is the anti-aging cure, and protects you from all diseases?
No disregard for PUFA vs SFA?
What is his take on gut health?
Testosterone?

Doesn't seem like the testimonials from G. Genereux's forum are that impressive.

It goes way further than just vitamin A.

It‘s all about giving the body what it needs (fixing deficiencies, diagnosed with a combination of blood tests and HTMA) and avoiding the intake of all sorts of toxins ie. fat soluble toxins (vitamin A..) heavy metals (mercury, lead, arsenic, excess iron and copper..) environmental toxins (pesticides, glyphosate..) plant defense chemicals („superfoods“) and overall liver-toxic substances („LiverTox“ database from PubMed is useful for this)

Dr. Smith tries to minimize things that need to be processed by the liver and excreted via the biliary system, which only has limited daily capacity for detoxification. Everything above that threshold leads to toxic accumulation in the liver. You need to cut way back on those things to actually get a net positive effect in regards to detoxing.

Most people have subclinical cholestasis. (= bile stagnation)
There is intrahepatic cholestasis, where bile builds up in the liver because it does not get to the gallbladder and the bile ducts. If the liver gets full of bile, it leaks some of it into the blood.

It is commonly seen in pregnancy in the semester where estrogen and progesterone concentrations are highest. The intrahepatic cholestasis of pregnancy resolves after the high levels of hormones normalize. Many things can cause the same thing. The exact mechanism is not known, but I think some things - like excess progesterone or estrogen can cause biliary sludge, that means bile that does not easily flow and get out of the liver.

Extrahepatic cholestasis means stagnation of bile outside the liver, for example in the bile ducts, that can become leaky from toxic bile.

Avoiding intoxing and gently fixing nutrient deficiencies is thought to restore liver function and cholestasis over time.

The paradox of the program is the following. „The bile is the root of your illness and bile is the solution to your illness“

Bile contains all the toxins you are trying to excrete and if it‘s highly saturated in toxins and some of it builds up in the blood stream, then you feel very ill. Bile in the blood causes symptoms, depending on the toxicity. Blood gets to all tissues, so can manifest in all types of diseases.

There are some „good healthy things“ that we call „agitators“ — hot showers, sauna, exercise, walking that can cause bile dumping, which in excess bites you back.

I definitely overdid the intensity of pushing detoxing. It‘s best to go low and slow.

This is marathon, not a sprint. At first I did not understand Dr. Smith uber-careful approach in supporting detox, but now I understand.

There is so much more…

 

[orangebear]

Good explanation @youngsinatra
I'd also argue that the soluble fiber is an understated star in the whole show. I've generally been doing more fiber than Dr. Smith recommends and seem to have gotten some benefit from doing that. Though I will slow down if I get overwhelmed with bile dumping symptoms for any reason (usually due to something other than the fiber itself, such as not having good options to eat and doing some cheat meals). On a good day, I can easily consume 50g of fiber (not sure of the breakdown between soluble and insoluble because Cronometer doesn't distinguish due to the state of the data, but it's more soluble than insoluble). I've been following Unique Hammond a bit and I like her analogy of soluble fiber being garbage bags. You need garbage bags to take the garbage out.

Edit: You can easily connect some bioenergetic principles to the ideas of VA/stagnant bile toxicity. When you get toxins circulating through your blood and gumming up the cellular machinery, it won't produce energy as efficiently as a clean system will. Dr. Ray Peat may have not personally struggled as much with detox so the foods he ate worked for him, but he always highlighted the importance of personal context over monkeying his personal diet and lifestyle. There is no universal connection between the bioenergetic view of biology and orange juice consumption. Orange juice might help some people because of the sugar but it might hurt others who can't detox that amount of carotenoids. The way I see it, the bioenergetic view is far more about optimizing your unique body in order to produce and utilize more energy than it is about eating any specific foods.

 

[LLight]

For people interested about cholestasis (at least a potential cause)

Aquaporins: Their role in cholestatic liver disease

This review focuses on current knowledge on hepatocyte aquaporins (AQPs) and their significance in bile formation and cholestasis. Canalicular bile secretion results from a combined interaction of several solute transporters and AQP water channels that ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Canalicular bile secretion results from a combined interaction of several solute transporters and AQP water channels that facilitate water flow in response to the osmotic gradients created. During choleresis, hepatocytes rapidly increase their canalicular membrane water permeability by modulating the abundance of AQP8. The question was raised as to whether the opposite process, i.e. a decreased canalicular AQP8 expression would contribute to the development of cholestasis. Studies in several experimental models of cholestasis, such as extrahepatic obstructive cholestasis, estrogen-induced cholestasis, and sepsis-induced cholestasis demonstrated that the protein expression of hepatocyte AQP8 was impaired. In addition, biophysical studies in canalicular plasma membranes revealed decreased water permeability associated with AQP8 protein downregulation. The combined alteration in hepatocyte solute transporters and AQP8 would hamper the efficient coupling of osmotic gradients and canalicular water flow. Thus cholestasis may result from a mutual occurrence of impaired solute transport and decreased water permeability.

Glucagon induces the plasma membrane insertion of functional aquaporin-8 water channels in isolated rat hepatocytes

Although glucagon is known to stimulate the cyclic adenosine monophosphate (cAMP)-mediated hepatocyte bile secretion, the precise mechanisms accountin…

www.sciencedirect.com

In conclusion, our data suggest that glucagon induces the protein kinase A and microtubule-dependent translocation of AQP8 water channels to the hepatocyte canalicular plasma membrane, which in turn leads to an increase in membrane water permeability. These findings provide evidence supporting the molecular mechanisms of glucagon-induced hepatocyte bile secretion.

An interesting fact is that the transcription factor FXR which senses bile acids, and which lowers their production when it's the case, might also be a sensor of osmolarity. It could be upregulated/activated when osmolarity is high. Also, transcription factors FXR and TGR5 are involved in water retention in the kidneys:

https://journals.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/ajprenal.00563.2018

 

[charlie]

I'd also argue that the soluble fiber is an understated star in the whole show. I've generally been doing more fiber than Dr. Smith recommends and seem to have gotten some benefit from doing that. Though I will slow down if I get overwhelmed with bile dumping symptoms for any reason (usually due to something other than the fiber itself, such as not having good options to eat and doing some cheat meals). On a good day, I can easily consume 50g of fiber (not sure of the breakdown between soluble and insoluble because Cronometer doesn't distinguish due to the state of the data, but it's more soluble than insoluble). I've been following Unique Hammond a bit and I like her analogy of soluble fiber being garbage bags. You need garbage bags to take the garbage out.

I do wonder if Peat figured this out himself toward the end of his stay in this dimension. Hence the reason he started adding in oats, etc. and testing his theory.

I think detox symptoms can be mistaken for endotoxin symptoms within this community. Someone could introduce soluble fiber, get detox symptoms, call them endotoxin symptoms, stop the soluble fiber and the endotoxin symptoms go away, so the soluble fiber must be bad, right? I and many others are finding that these symptoms are not bad, and indeed are clearing out the poison. I think this will eventually lead to a big shift in the Ray Peat community with the realization that soluble fiber is needed to "take out the trash" like you said.

I think another shift will be that the accumulation of vitamin A and its harmful effects are indeed real. Crumbling of teeth, even with Ray Peat himself and many others in this community, loss of bone density, liver poisoning, detox system shut down, then accumulation of heavy metals like copper, lead, etc leading to premature graying of hair and the other nefarious effects. I and many other people did well in the beginning of Peating, but once the accumulation effects of vitamin A start up after many years, things start to go downhill. Some people cannot handle many years and immediately start to see the bad effects. The liver health someone starts with is probably the reason.

These are all theories I am searching out myself right now. I was very cautious at first going in, taking my time to watch other communities work through it. But I have seen enough now where I have to test it out myself. I tend to lean towards these theories are indeed correct and will catapult this community into incredible health with the knowledge of Peat backing us up.

 

[Apple]

I think another shift will be that the accumulation of vitamin A and its harmful effects are indeed real. Crumbling of teeth, even with Ray Peat himself and many others in this community, loss of bone density, liver poisoning, detox system shut down, then accumulation of heavy metals like copper, lead, etc leading to premature graying of hair and the other nefarious effects. I and many other people did well in the beginning of Peating, but once the accumulation effects of vitamin A start up after many years, things start to go downhill. Some people cannot handle many years and immediately start to see the bad effects. The liver health someone starts with is probably the reason.

I still can not figure out where stands dairy on ggenereux diet...
Grant presented some convincing pictures about how vit A can destroy your teeth and his teeth are in very good health for his age.
Years with lots of milk/cheese didn't improve my teeth in any way, coffee/oranges exacerbates things. At the same time no starch diet keeps teeth free of plaque accumulation while milk contributes to plaque formation.

 

[Limon9]

I do wonder if Peat figured this out himself toward the end of his stay in this dimension. Hence the reason he started adding in oats, etc. and testing his theory.

Surely. The oatmeal would be a good way to remove protein, which was his admitted focus this year. The reduced consumption of liver, milk and cheese would considerable lower the retinol intake in any case, but maybe he just ate oatmeal because it was tasty, like with the chicken livers...

 

[SonOfEurope]

I do wonder if Peat figured this out himself toward the end of his stay in this dimension. Hence the reason he started adding in oats, etc. and testing his theory.

I think detox symptoms can be mistaken for endotoxin symptoms within this community. Someone could introduce soluble fiber, get detox symptoms, call them endotoxin symptoms, stop the soluble fiber and the endotoxin symptoms go away, so the soluble fiber must be bad, right? I and many others are finding that these symptoms are not bad, and indeed are clearing out the poison. I think this will eventually lead to a big shift in the Ray Peat community with the realization that soluble fiber is needed to "take out the trash" like you said.

I think another shift will be that the accumulation of vitamin A and its harmful effects are indeed real. Crumbling of teeth, even with Ray Peat himself and many others in this community, loss of bone density, liver poisoning, detox system shut down, then accumulation of heavy metals like copper, lead, etc leading to premature graying of hair and the other nefarious effects. I and many other people did well in the beginning of Peating, but once the accumulation effects of vitamin A start up after many years, things start to go downhill. Some people cannot handle many years and immediately start to see the bad effects. The liver health someone starts with is probably the reason.

These are all theories I am searching out myself right now. I was very cautious at first going in, taking my time to watch other communities work through it. But I have seen enough now where I have to test it out myself. I tend to lean towards these theories are indeed correct and will catapult this community into incredible health with the knowledge of Peat backing us up.

I had, like many other members, been saying this... there is a connection between longetivity and harmonious dietary fiber intake.

It just seems unnatural to take all the bulk apart, even for metabolism, since through fiber we synthesize a **** load of nutrients it seems like taking the long way around.


I may be wrong though...


I probably am.

 

[DeadCatBounce]

I had, like many other members, been saying this... there is a connection between longetivity and harmonious dietary fiber intake.

It just seems unnatural to take all the bulk apart, even for metabolism, since through fiber we synthesize a **** load of nutrients it seems like taking the long way around.


I may be wrong though...


I probably am.

I think fiber = hydrogen production in colon = health. Just my research which could be wrong.

I avoid fiber and breath hydrogen.

 

[orangebear]

I think fiber = hydrogen production in colon = health. Just my research which could be wrong.

I avoid fiber and breath hydrogen.

This kind of reductive logic is how we clever humans get into trouble with a lot of things.

 

[orangebear]

I do wonder if Peat figured this out himself toward the end of his stay in this dimension. Hence the reason he started adding in oats, etc. and testing his theory.

I think detox symptoms can be mistaken for endotoxin symptoms within this community. Someone could introduce soluble fiber, get detox symptoms, call them endotoxin symptoms, stop the soluble fiber and the endotoxin symptoms go away, so the soluble fiber must be bad, right? I and many others are finding that these symptoms are not bad, and indeed are clearing out the poison. I think this will eventually lead to a big shift in the Ray Peat community with the realization that soluble fiber is needed to "take out the trash" like you said.

I've been thinking that myself. I haven't listened to the interviews with Ray about his oats and lower protein experiments yet, but I know it seemed to shock a lot of people in the bioenergetic space. I do intend to check those out at some point.

I think another shift will be that the accumulation of vitamin A and its harmful effects are indeed real. Crumbling of teeth, even with Ray Peat himself and many others in this community, loss of bone density, liver poisoning, detox system shut down, then accumulation of heavy metals like copper, lead, etc leading to premature graying of hair and the other nefarious effects. I and many other people did well in the beginning of Peating, but once the accumulation effects of vitamin A start up after many years, things start to go downhill. Some people cannot handle many years and immediately start to see the bad effects. The liver health someone starts with is probably the reason.

These are all theories I am searching out myself right now. I was very cautious at first going in, taking my time to watch other communities work through it. But I have seen enough now where I have to test it out myself. I tend to lean towards these theories are indeed correct and will catapult this community into incredible health with the knowledge of Peat backing us up.

Yeah. I have a lot of those symptoms as well. In recent years my teeth have gotten a bit problematic. I've had 2 big health crashes in 2017/2018 and 2020, in which both times I had a lot of pain in the liver area. DEXA scans show my bone density to be in the lowest percentile, while also testing low for PTH. I've had arthritis since my early twenties. A lot of these symptoms fall in line with chronic vitamin A toxicity and I grew up eating a lot of liver and carrots. My mom drank so much carrot juice her skin has been yellow for at least a decade now.

 

[orangebear]

I still can not figure out where stands dairy on ggenereux diet...
Grant presented some convincing pictures about how vit A can destroy your teeth and his teeth are in very good health for his age.
Years with lots of milk/cheese didn't improve my teeth in any way, coffee/oranges exacerbates things. At the same time no starch diet keeps teeth free of plaque accumulation while milk contributes to plaque formation.

I know Dr. Smith believes that casein contains vitamin A despite not being counted on the label for dairy products. I don't know if that's true. Karen Hurd and Unique Hammond also say to avoid dairy, but they are more concerned with getting enough fiber than lowering VA intake. I'd say I'm not entirely sure why dairy isn't a good idea and if that's a universal principle or not. I'd like to get to the bottom of it but until then, I generally do avoid dairy as well.

 

[GreekDemiGod]

I've been thinking that myself. I haven't listened to the interviews with Ray about his oats and lower protein experiments yet, but I know it seemed to shock a lot of people in the bioenergetic space. I do intend to check those out at some point.

Yeah. I have a lot of those symptoms as well. In recent years my teeth have gotten a bit problematic. I've had 2 big health crashes in 2017/2018 and 2020, in which both times I had a lot of pain in the liver area. DEXA scans show my bone density to be in the lowest percentile, while also testing low for PTH. I've had arthritis since my early twenties. A lot of these symptoms fall in line with chronic vitamin A toxicity and I grew up eating a lot of liver and carrots. My mom drank so much carrot juice her skin has been yellow for at least a decade now.

Lowest percentile with respect to what?
I've also never had high PTH, yet my dental health has been worse and worse in the last 3 years. I put it down to frequent snacking and eating a lot of sugar, perhaps could it have also been from too high VA intake?

 

[orangebear]

Lowest percentile with respect to what?

My last DEXA scan was on 9/18/21 and the Bone Mineral Content was at 4.8 and a T-Score of -1.2 and Z-Score of -0.4. I mixed the numbers up earlier so I am just a hair above the lowest percentile for my age. In other words, I'm in the lowest ~35% on bone density for guys my age (who are curious enough about their health to get DEXA scans, so the demographic is slightly skewed). From what I know a BMC of about 6 is normal and healthy, so if I'm understanding the report correctly I'm missing over a pound of bone mineral content.

I've also never had high PTH, yet my dental health has been worse and worse in the last 3 years. I put it down to frequent snacking and eating a lot of sugar, perhaps could it have also been from too high VA intake?

That is certainly a possibility. Low bone density and/or dental problems along with low PTH is a common pattern in vitamin A toxicity, from what I've read. Dental health and bone health are directly related. I don't know what your bone density is so I can't say much about your case, but in my case I would say that it's hard to blame my bone density issues on sweet snacks. Sugar might affect the teeth since it comes into contact with them, but it doesn't make it's way to all the bones in the body. Theoretically (and according to Dr. Peat himself), healthy saliva should be antiseptic and control the bacteria in the mouth, making sugar not a problem for teeth. If that is true then cutting sugar out from the diet is as much a workaround for dental health as keto is a workaround for gut issues, rather than being a solution to the root problem. That said, when the sensitivity of my teeth to sugar does flare up I am more hesitant in consuming it.

 

[Blossom]

My last DEXA scan was on 9/18/21 and the Bone Mineral Content was at 4.8 and a T-Score of -1.2 and Z-Score of -0.4. I mixed the numbers up earlier so I am just a hair above the lowest percentile for my age. In other words, I'm in the lowest ~35% on bone density for guys my age (who are curious enough about their health to get DEXA scans, so the demographic is slightly skewed). From what I know a BMC of about 6 is normal and healthy, so if I'm understanding the report correctly I'm missing over a pound of bone mineral content.

That is certainly a possibility. Low bone density and/or dental problems along with low PTH is a common pattern in vitamin A toxicity, from what I've read. Dental health and bone health are directly related. I don't know what your bone density is so I can't say much about your case, but in my case I would say that it's hard to blame my bone density issues on sweet snacks. Sugar might affect the teeth since it comes into contact with them, but it doesn't make it's way to all the bones in the body. Theoretically (and according to Dr. Peat himself), healthy saliva should be antiseptic and control the bacteria in the mouth, making sugar not a problem for teeth. If that is true then cutting sugar out from the diet is as much a workaround for dental health as keto is a workaround for gut issues, rather than being a solution to the root problem. That said, when the sensitivity of my teeth to sugar does flare up I am more hesitant in consuming it.

Are you average height?