Low Toxin Diet Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

[Blossom]

I'm just starting with book 1. Does Grant ever write about a possible way to help remove the excess retinoic acid from the body?

I don't have quotes but going from memory he has mentioned that exercise and blood donation could possibly help. Dr. Garrett Smith had a post today about taurine and a few other things that might help as well. I'll try to get you a link to that post soon.

 

[Blossom]

I don't have quotes but going from memory he has mentioned that exercise and blood donation could possibly help. Dr. Garrett Smith had a post today about taurine and a few other things that might help as well. I'll try to get you a link to that post soon.

Compounds that help protect against and/or detox Poison/"Vitamin A"

 

[tankasnowgod]

If you dig into some of the Vitamin D toxicity studies that Dr. Garrett Smith, they are interesting, but not all that damning.

• Studies connecting Vitamin D supplements with hypercalcemia (high blood calcium, link must be opened on a computer, not a phone)

First, the case study he mentions with both high D and A is one of the 11 linked, although it does not give levels for A or D in the abstract, nor does Dr. Smith provide any further info, so I don't know how useful this case study is.

Six of the other studies list no information on pubmed, whatsoever, other than title and author. Here are the other four-

1. Hypercalcemia and hypervitaminosis D in two lambs. - PubMed - NCBI

This one discusses Hypercalcemia and hypervitaminosis D in two 17 Day old lambs. Not very relevant to adult humans.

2. Hypercalcemia due to hypervitaminosis D: report of seven patients. - PubMed - NCBI

This one talks about children 2 and under who received massive doses of D (900,000 to 4,000,000 IU). Those doses would be extremely high for an adult, and hardly appropriate for toddlers and infants.

3. “Excess gooD can be Dangerous”. A case series of iatrogenic symptomatic hypercalcemia due to hypervitaminosis D

This one discusses Hypercalcemia and hypervitaminosis D in adults aged 50-85. However, all 15 adults had received multiple intramuscular injections of 600,000 IU D. It could be the size of dose along with the delivery method that caused problems. Probably a warning against injections.

4.Prevalence of hypercalcemia related to hypervitaminosis D in clinical practice. - PubMed - NCBI

This was a 6 year sampling of over 25,000 patients. Abstract-

BACKGROUND & AIMS:
Recent interest in vitamin D has led to a substantial increase in the use of vitamin D supplements. Vitamin D intoxication may be a concern as hypervitaminosis D can result in irreversible calcification of soft tissues so that it is important to detect early markers of vitamin D intoxication. Our aim was to assess the simultaneous presence of biochemical markers of vitamin D toxicity (i.e. hypervitaminosis D, hypercalcemia) and determine the concentrations of 25-OH-vitamin D at which the risk of hypercalcemia, and thus toxicity, might begin.

METHODS:
We evaluated retrospectively a 6-year period during which 25.567 samples were assessed for 25-OH-vitamin D status by UHPLC. Hypervitaminosis D was defined at serum 25-OH-vitamin D >160 nmol/L. Serum and urine calcium, phosphorus and iPTH were also recorded, if available. Medical history revision was performed in subjects displaying simultaneously hypervitaminosis D and hypercalcemia.

RESULTS:
Overall, hypervitaminosis D was found in 475 samples (1.86%) of which 51 displayed hypercalcemia (11.1%). A total of 382 samples were identified as the first record of hypervitaminosis D and 39 presented hypercalcemia (10.2%), most of them at 25-OH-vitamin D levels between 161 and 375 nmol/L. Only in 15 subjects, hypercalcemia could be directly attributed to vitamin D and serum 25-OH-vitamin D ranged between 164 and 1139 nmol/l. In no case, serum calcium achieved concentrations considered as critical values (>13 mg/dl).

CONCLUSION:
Hypercalcemia due to vitamin D represented <4% of the total hypervitaminosis D detected and <0.1% of the tests performed. However, a highly variable response was observed and most subjects presented hypercalcemia at serum concentrations of 25-OH-vitamin D < 375 nmol/L.

The full text might be interesting to read on this one, but even over the (somewhat arbitrary) number they give for Hypervitaminosis, only 11% of patients had hypercalcemia, and none reached a critical value. It also appears they didn't measure Vitamin A.

Vitamin K2 didn't appear to measured in any way in any of these studies.

 

[sunraiser]

Sunraiser, I get that you are trying to help others by posting you information. I would like to know how you personally know when you are balanced or imbalanced? Energy level? Intellectual capacity? Physical strength? Emotional state? Reaction time? Lack of any health issues? Sleep requirements? Vision? Coordination? And then how do you identify what is missing or out of balance?
Thanks,
Brother John

Restful sleep, energy to move, bright eyes, social presence, general feelings of energy and wellbeing. All the things you've mentioned.

Knowing where you're at comes down to self awareness and reflection, but once healthy the balance is kept via eating intuitively the foods you crave and enjoy, just like any healthy person.

To be clear, whole foods do NOT create these imbalances. Many foods are adulterated with supplements and many are eating foods they perceive as healthy but don't enjoy. A loosely based diet via intuition will keep an easy balance, and I think the more cellular energy and balanced lifestyle you have, the more easily the body can stay in equilibrium.

Supplements bypass the body's balancing mechanisms - a person that's simply vitamin D deficient will have a limit on their metabolism and likely won't eat vit A and K rich foods often. The imbalance won't be too severe and they'll recover once they get some sun, perhaps without symptoms due to mineral stores.

When added supplemental vitamins are involved it's a different story.

My history and my learning over the years has guided me to fat solubles and mineral balance and I was probably the most vitamin A toxic due to roaccutane use!

Dietary dogma is dangerous, though perceptions beyond intuition about food are useful but only as a framework. I don't believe any person can be healthy without eating intuitively. Or by eating very restrictively.

Eating via science or what a perceived authority says is good for you is unlikely to bring sustained wellbeing.

 

[InChristAlone]

If you dig into some of the Vitamin D toxicity studies that Dr. Garrett Smith, they are interesting, but not all that damning.



First, the case study he mentions with both high D and A is one of the 11 linked, although it does not give levels for A or D in the abstract, nor does Dr. Smith provide any further info, so I don't know how useful this case study is.

Six of the other studies list no information on pubmed, whatsoever, other than title and author. Here are the other four-

1. Hypercalcemia and hypervitaminosis D in two lambs. - PubMed - NCBI

This one discusses Hypercalcemia and hypervitaminosis D in two 17 Day old lambs. Not very relevant to adult humans.

2. Hypercalcemia due to hypervitaminosis D: report of seven patients. - PubMed - NCBI

This one talks about children 2 and under who received massive doses of D (900,000 to 4,000,000 IU). Those doses would be extremely high for an adult, and hardly appropriate for toddlers and infants.

3. “Excess gooD can be Dangerous”. A case series of iatrogenic symptomatic hypercalcemia due to hypervitaminosis D

This one discusses Hypercalcemia and hypervitaminosis D in adults aged 50-85. However, all 15 adults had received multiple intramuscular injections of 600,000 IU D. It could be the size of dose along with the delivery method that caused problems. Probably a warning against injections.

4.Prevalence of hypercalcemia related to hypervitaminosis D in clinical practice. - PubMed - NCBI

This was a 6 year sampling of over 25,000 patients. Abstract-

BACKGROUND & AIMS:
Recent interest in vitamin D has led to a substantial increase in the use of vitamin D supplements. Vitamin D intoxication may be a concern as hypervitaminosis D can result in irreversible calcification of soft tissues so that it is important to detect early markers of vitamin D intoxication. Our aim was to assess the simultaneous presence of biochemical markers of vitamin D toxicity (i.e. hypervitaminosis D, hypercalcemia) and determine the concentrations of 25-OH-vitamin D at which the risk of hypercalcemia, and thus toxicity, might begin.

METHODS:
We evaluated retrospectively a 6-year period during which 25.567 samples were assessed for 25-OH-vitamin D status by UHPLC. Hypervitaminosis D was defined at serum 25-OH-vitamin D >160 nmol/L. Serum and urine calcium, phosphorus and iPTH were also recorded, if available. Medical history revision was performed in subjects displaying simultaneously hypervitaminosis D and hypercalcemia.

RESULTS:
Overall, hypervitaminosis D was found in 475 samples (1.86%) of which 51 displayed hypercalcemia (11.1%). A total of 382 samples were identified as the first record of hypervitaminosis D and 39 presented hypercalcemia (10.2%), most of them at 25-OH-vitamin D levels between 161 and 375 nmol/L. Only in 15 subjects, hypercalcemia could be directly attributed to vitamin D and serum 25-OH-vitamin D ranged between 164 and 1139 nmol/l. In no case, serum calcium achieved concentrations considered as critical values (>13 mg/dl).

CONCLUSION:
Hypercalcemia due to vitamin D represented <4% of the total hypervitaminosis D detected and <0.1% of the tests performed. However, a highly variable response was observed and most subjects presented hypercalcemia at serum concentrations of 25-OH-vitamin D < 375 nmol/L.

The full text might be interesting to read on this one, but even over the (somewhat arbitrary) number they give for Hypervitaminosis, only 11% of patients had hypercalcemia, and none reached a critical value. It also appears they didn't measure Vitamin A.

Vitamin K2 didn't appear to measured in any way in any of these studies.

Yeah he needs to update then because I know he has more info on it. Just because the blood doesn't show a serious imbalance doesn't mean the body didn't experience an extrmely serious upset in chemistry. Garrett deals with HTMA's and so he sees high hair calcium regularly. Well most adults have high hair calcium. I think aging means the slow rusting of iron and calcification of tissues. Why would you want to play around with that? You won't know other than symptoms and taking a look at arteries whether you will die of a fatal heart attack. So I'm personally going to get my D from the sun not supplements and I am pretty sure I'll never eat liver again. My intuition always says no that's gross don't do it. When I was eating the most A and D I was the most unhealthy.

 

[tankasnowgod]

Yeah he needs to update then because I know he has more info on it. Just because the blood doesn't show a serious imbalance doesn't mean the body didn't experience an extrmely serious upset in chemistry. Garrett deals with HTMA's and so he sees high hair calcium regularly. Well most adults have high hair calcium. I think aging means the slow rusting of iron and calcification of tissues. Why would you want to play around with that? You won't know other than symptoms and taking a look at arteries whether you will die of a fatal heart attack. So I'm personally going to get my D from the sun not supplements and I am pretty sure I'll never eat liver again. My intuition always says no that's gross don't do it. When I was eating the most A and D I was the most unhealthy.

I don't really disagree with you. I think you're dead on with the part I bolded. Personally, one of the reasons I donate blood is to keep iron in check.

Beyond that, we just have different strategies. I do supplement D, because I don't get the opportunity to run around mostly naked in the equatorial sun every day. And I supplement K2 and Mag to avoid calcification of tissues. I also like experimenting with different things, especially supplements.

And lastly, when it comes to soft tissue calcification, let's not forget what the namesake of this forum said (requoted, actually)-

"It is extremely important to realize that calcium deposits in soft tissues become worse when the diet is low in calcium."

-Adelle Davis as quoted by Ray Peat in Calcium and Disease: Hypertension, organ calcification, & shock, vs. respiratory energy

(had to give appropriate credit to the quote)

 

[Tarmander]

If you dig into some of the Vitamin D toxicity studies that Dr. Garrett Smith, they are interesting, but not all that damning.



First, the case study he mentions with both high D and A is one of the 11 linked, although it does not give levels for A or D in the abstract, nor does Dr. Smith provide any further info, so I don't know how useful this case study is.

Six of the other studies list no information on pubmed, whatsoever, other than title and author. Here are the other four-

1. Hypercalcemia and hypervitaminosis D in two lambs. - PubMed - NCBI

This one discusses Hypercalcemia and hypervitaminosis D in two 17 Day old lambs. Not very relevant to adult humans.

2. Hypercalcemia due to hypervitaminosis D: report of seven patients. - PubMed - NCBI

This one talks about children 2 and under who received massive doses of D (900,000 to 4,000,000 IU). Those doses would be extremely high for an adult, and hardly appropriate for toddlers and infants.

3. “Excess gooD can be Dangerous”. A case series of iatrogenic symptomatic hypercalcemia due to hypervitaminosis D

This one discusses Hypercalcemia and hypervitaminosis D in adults aged 50-85. However, all 15 adults had received multiple intramuscular injections of 600,000 IU D. It could be the size of dose along with the delivery method that caused problems. Probably a warning against injections.

4.Prevalence of hypercalcemia related to hypervitaminosis D in clinical practice. - PubMed - NCBI

This was a 6 year sampling of over 25,000 patients. Abstract-

BACKGROUND & AIMS:
Recent interest in vitamin D has led to a substantial increase in the use of vitamin D supplements. Vitamin D intoxication may be a concern as hypervitaminosis D can result in irreversible calcification of soft tissues so that it is important to detect early markers of vitamin D intoxication. Our aim was to assess the simultaneous presence of biochemical markers of vitamin D toxicity (i.e. hypervitaminosis D, hypercalcemia) and determine the concentrations of 25-OH-vitamin D at which the risk of hypercalcemia, and thus toxicity, might begin.

METHODS:
We evaluated retrospectively a 6-year period during which 25.567 samples were assessed for 25-OH-vitamin D status by UHPLC. Hypervitaminosis D was defined at serum 25-OH-vitamin D >160 nmol/L. Serum and urine calcium, phosphorus and iPTH were also recorded, if available. Medical history revision was performed in subjects displaying simultaneously hypervitaminosis D and hypercalcemia.

RESULTS:
Overall, hypervitaminosis D was found in 475 samples (1.86%) of which 51 displayed hypercalcemia (11.1%). A total of 382 samples were identified as the first record of hypervitaminosis D and 39 presented hypercalcemia (10.2%), most of them at 25-OH-vitamin D levels between 161 and 375 nmol/L. Only in 15 subjects, hypercalcemia could be directly attributed to vitamin D and serum 25-OH-vitamin D ranged between 164 and 1139 nmol/l. In no case, serum calcium achieved concentrations considered as critical values (>13 mg/dl).

CONCLUSION:
Hypercalcemia due to vitamin D represented <4% of the total hypervitaminosis D detected and <0.1% of the tests performed. However, a highly variable response was observed and most subjects presented hypercalcemia at serum concentrations of 25-OH-vitamin D < 375 nmol/L.

The full text might be interesting to read on this one, but even over the (somewhat arbitrary) number they give for Hypervitaminosis, only 11% of patients had hypercalcemia, and none reached a critical value. It also appears they didn't measure Vitamin A.

Vitamin K2 didn't appear to measured in any way in any of these studies.

Thank you for looking into these. I also have not been able to find much substantiating the "Vitamin D toxic levels!" stuff. Seems like a few precations can get rid of 99% of the problems. I will keep looking though

 

[Louise]

Thank you for looking into these. I also have not been able to find much substantiating the "Vitamin D toxic levels!" stuff. Seems like a few precations can get rid of 99% of the problems. I will keep looking though

Like Janelle pointed out, blood isn't the always the best for testing. Despite topical magnesium and K2 drops I have had high hair calcium for 4 straight years since I began hair testing analysis, though it has come down. I have also not been eating much food containing vD or taking any supplements that have vD. I'm fairly sure my soft tissue calcium has been high since a child and that calcium was taken from my bones/teeth. I have a curved spine and terrible teeth that started when I was young. Was it D or A? I am leaning towards vA. I'm sure I have been poisoned by vA since a child despite not taking supplements or eating that many fortifiied foods. We had lots of milk and other dairy. I grew up in the late 60s to early 80s. I spent a lot of time outside in the warmer months. I believe vA and vD were not added to foods when I was young, at least not much.

The reason why people may be def. in D is because they are def. in other nutrients and that is why they can't make D when in the sun or why the body doesn't want D when it comes in through the mouth. By the way in case not discussed here, cows milk has 4 times the calcium as human milk. Milk seems to be for babies..... How do other animals grow to be bigger after weaning? Don't know why the idea that humans don't need dairy is so controversial or that it can in fact be unhealthy. Milk/dairy tastes good - so what? It should but does that mean when humans evolved, we kept consuming it beyond being weaned?

Vitamin A is a poison for me - not saying to not eat fruits or veggies ever again with vA, just have to keep in mind the toxicity levels in the body and that is what Grant and Smith have illuminated. If high in vA toxicity symptoms, one might want to minimize or eliminate vA foods for awhile till they feel better. vA is slow acting so it isn't always intuitive that it is causing a problem.

It is indeed a multifactorial issue and Grant and Smith are unearthing many of those factors that have not been considered by the vast majority in health care.

 

[InChristAlone]

I don't really disagree with you. I think you're dead on with the part I bolded. Personally, one of the reasons I donate blood is to keep iron in check.

Beyond that, we just have different strategies. I do supplement D, because I don't get the opportunity to run around mostly naked in the equatorial sun every day. And I supplement K2 and Mag to avoid calcification of tissues. I also like experimenting with different things, especially supplements.

And lastly, when it comes to soft tissue calcification, let's not forget what the namesake of this forum said (requoted, actually)-

"It is extremely important to realize that calcium deposits in soft tissues become worse when the diet is low in calcium."

-Adelle Davis as quoted by Ray Peat in Calcium and Disease: Hypertension, organ calcification, & shock, vs. respiratory energy

(had to give appropriate credit to the quote)

But I'm making all these connections! What if when the diet is high in vitamin A and you are getting too much hormone D from supps that calcification gets worse? Thus someone who doesn't get much of either doesn't have to regulate calcium much anymore. Maybe that's why someone can eat only beef and rice and get better because they aren't getting any of the A that causes high calcium.

And yeah I agree giving blood should be mandatory for all eligible males and women post menopausal.

 

[tankasnowgod]

But I'm making all these connections! What if when the diet is high in vitamin A and you are getting too much hormone D from supps that calcification gets worse? Thus someone who doesn't get much of either doesn't have to regulate calcium much anymore. Maybe that's why someone can eat only beef and rice and get better because they aren't getting any of the A that causes high calcium.

And yeah I agree giving blood should be mandatory for all eligible males and women post menopausal.

I'm not sure I quite follow your logic on this, but I will explain my thinking.

More so than anything, I think soft tissue calcification stems from high levels of prolactin and PTH. These two are problematic, as they leach calcium out of bones, where it will get deposited in soft tissue (the calcium paradox Peat talks about). High levels of dietary calcium suppress both prolactin and PTH, as does Vitamin D. The other alkaline minerals (sodium, potassium, and magnesium) also suppress those two, as they are often released to keep blood acidity in a certain range. Beyond that, K2 helps keep calcium regulated further, out of soft tissues, and in bones. Since A also helps to dissolve bones, more so than D levels, high A along with Prolactin and PTH would be a bigger concern (in my view) for both soft tissue calcification and osteoporosis.

I do think D can also cause or aggravate soft tissue calcification, but in very, very high doses. Much higher than most people think. This study suggests that doses of D up to 60,000 IU for several years is safe- https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0960076016303569

That's my thinking, and why I am focusing more on supplementing D than reducing A. Although, I have decided I am avoiding liver for a few months and not taking any supplements with A or beta carrotene.

EDIT- One other thing to mention- both iron and calcium oppose the absorption of the other. In fact, iron researcher E.D. Weinberg takes a calcium channel blocker to help keep his own iron stores low. One overlooked factor in the US, UK, and Canada could be iron fortification, which could essentially make a normal calcium diet into a low calcium diet, and trigger release of prolactin and PTH.

 

[somuch4food]

One overlooked factor in the US, UK, and Canada could be iron fortification, which could essentially make a normal calcium diet into a low calcium diet, and trigger release of prolactin and PTH.

That argument does not work with scandinavian countries, some which I know have banned fortification.

My iron levels were all normal according to my GP. I have checked Cronometer and I regularly exploded the vitamin A recommendation, hence why I am exploring this theory.

 

[tankasnowgod]

That argument does not work with scandinavian countries, some which I know have banned fortification.

My iron levels were all normal according to my GP. I have checked Cronometer and I regularly exploded the vitamin A recommendation, hence why I am exploring this theory.

I wasn't arguing against the theory, just responding to Janelle's concerns about calcification.

As far as iron goes, it's certainly it's own issue, and iron overload can certainly happen in individuals in countries that don't fortify foods with iron. All foods contain some iron, as I mentioned in other threads, there are other issues that have made body iron stores go up overall, such as eradication of hookworm, sedentary lifestyle, and bloodletting falling out of medical practice in the late 19th century. Also, having a GP that says iron is fine doesn't mean all that much, if you don't know what iron marker they measured, and if they are simply going by the lab range.

Also, when it comes to Scandinavian Countries, the genes for hereditary hemochromatosis are quite common- Celtic or Viking, a Curse is a Curse: Hereditary hemochromatosis, firewalls, and genetic killers — Celtic Curse

 

[MarcelZD]

A lot of grant's success at low vitamin A matches up exactly with high dose vitamin D experiences. I am pretty sure that you can replicate his success by doing high vitamin D dosages. Maybe low vitamin A simply accelerates that.

I thought cellulite was always about loose skin and muscle tone. The girls with thigh muscles do not seem to have as much cellulite. So basically thyroid and muscles

I've tried vitamin D/K2, took large doses from time to time in a desperate attempt to cure my autoimmune issues. Never did anything for me.

 

[Tarmander]

I've tried vitamin D/K2, took large doses from time to time in a desperate attempt to cure my autoimmune issues. Never did anything for me.

What doses did you take? Did you get your PTH and vitamin D levels tested?

 

[MarcelZD]

What doses did you take? Did you get your PTH and vitamin D levels tested?

I took around 50.000 IU daily over the span of several months and I still cringe thinking about it. It did absolutely nothing, but I still continued supplementing around 5.000 IU. Before megadosing my Vitamin D levels were at 41 ng/ml. I didn't do another test after that.

 

[Tarmander]

I took around 50.000 IU daily over the span of several months and I still cringe thinking about it. It did absolutely nothing, but I still continued supplementing around 5.000 IU. Before megadosing my Vitamin D levels were at 41 ng/ml. I didn't do another test after that.

Interesting. Thanks for sharing. Mind if I ask what autoimmune you had? Pretty crazy you didn't feel anything. I would think youd get low mag symptoms or something at those doses.

 

[MarcelZD]

Interesting. Thanks for sharing. Mind if I ask what autoimmune you had? Pretty crazy you didn't feel anything. I would think youd get low mag symptoms or something at those doses.

I wasn't very methodical in supplementing vitamin D admittedly, although I did take magnesium along with it.

My autoimmune issues are mostly skin/gut/joint related. Bad fatigue too.

 

[Tarmander]

I wasn't very methodical in supplementing vitamin D admittedly, although I did take magnesium along with it.

My autoimmune issues are mostly skin/gut/joint related. Bad fatigue too.

Thanks

 

[somuch4food]

My autoimmune issues are mostly skin/gut/joint related. Bad fatigue too.

I think a bigger part of the population is suffering from autoimmune diseases, but dismisses them as part of aging. I also have the same problems and they started during my teenage years. First was the fatigue (especially in winter), then my knee started to act up when I sitted for too long, then I had lower back pains (which is probably gut related) and recently dry hands, constipation and gas got worse.

 

[MarcelZD]

I think a bigger part of the population is suffering from autoimmune diseases, but dismisses them as part of aging. I also have the same problems and they started during my teenage years. First was the fatigue (especially in winter), then my knee started to act up when I sitted for too long, then I had lower back pains (which is probably gut related) and recently dry hands, constipation and gas got worse.

Exactly! I believe I got these symptoms at a younger age because I have a sluggish liver, gallbadder and digestion, which made it difficult to eliminate endotoxin and vitamin A. Some dietary recommendations like liver, eggs progressively made my symptoms worse.

Childhood diet and one's mother's diet might also contribute to the early development of those symptoms. Genereux believes that VA toxicity problems could begin already in the womb, and in early childhood mother's milk might be another source of potentially problematic amounts of Vitamin A. In my neck of the woods the consumption of pork liver in sausages and patés is very common (we'd eat those several times a week in my childhood), as is the consumption of cooked vegetables like carrots and kale, so my liver might have been saturated at an early age already.

If Grant is correct it is at that point when the liver can no longer effectively eliminate VA that the skin/gut issues appear.