Low Toxin Diet Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

[Dave Clark]

All the science is listed in his blog/forum in addition to the science described/listed by Grant. Forum Besides, I thought he referred to the science quite a bit but I had already read his blog quite a bit so maybe I was thinking it without him saying explicitly that he found studies, etc.. on a particular aspect of vA and what the studies said. I don't see anything he is saying would qualify as "just his opinion"

I will have to go and listen to it again, but I didn't mean he did not have scientific reference for his opinion, just that it seemed ne was speaking in a very colloquial way without much science reference.

 

[Louise]

I read a few posts in this thread regarding eating so much beef and was wondering why those who are concerned about it don't eat beans instead of a lot of beef? Is it because of the lectins/antinutrients? I don't see the lectins left over after propper preparation as a problem - I've eaten beans for years and they don't seem to bother me. Grant ate/eats lots of black beans I think. Don't many cultures who seem healthy depend on beans too?

 

[Brother John]

FYI...

Here is a government list 221 pages worth of Vitamin A in Foods; even lists name brands and fast foods.

Telling. Oh my...seriously look at processed and fast foods. Off the charts high in Vit A. If someone ate homemade food and chose lower Vit A veggies, even eating dairy is not that high. Another scary thing, look at baby food, SUPER high...

https://ods.od.nih.gov/pubs/usdandb/VitaminA-Content.pdf

@Janelle525 @Brother John @Blossom you might find this interesting.

Lisa,
Thanks Very Much! My diet will be more interesting for sure because of your list!
Brother John

 

[sunraiser]

I will have to go and listen to it again, but I didn't mean he did not have scientific reference for his opinion, just that it seemed ne was speaking in a very colloquial way without much science reference.

These healers and health bloggers thrive on clicks. Anything that can be a new fad or new danger generates them views and a sense of esteem...

To provide balance, I personally depend on vitamin A (retinol palmitate via supplement) at the moment.

Copper rich liver like lamb or beef, despite being high in retinol, seem to deplete me of vitamin A.

K2 depletes vitamin A for me and the reverse effect is also true (A depletes K2)

Once again, vitamin A is necessary as a cofactor for antioxidant uptake, it's necessary for proper zinc uptake alongside copper, it's necessary for a proper mucosal barrier, too.

Grant's book should immediately raise alarm bells as it leaves out fundamental knowledge of cofactors.

For me personally I have absolutely been k2 deficient but vitamin A simply isn't uptaken for me in this state. However, high copper intake via liver makes me actively and acutely worse so it appears my body is able to deal with excess vitamin A but not excess copper at current.

Our bodies are incredibly smart but long term stress and sun absence, alongside supplementation and eating away from intuition can cause troublesome holes.

I don't believe a person is truly healing if they remain so sensitive to vitamin A. There are many approaches that remove symptoms for a while but are not actually putting us on a path to healing.

Trial this if it feels right but please please keep that last sentence in mind!!

 

[InChristAlone]

These healers and health bloggers thrive on clicks. Anything that can be a new fad or new danger generates them views and a sense of esteem...

To provide balance, I personally depend on vitamin A (retinol palmitate via supplement) at the moment.

Copper rich liver like lamb or beef, despite being high in retinol, seem to deplete me of vitamin A. I assume because vitamin A is our main antioxidant and copper isn't well uptaken without a strong metabolism.

K2 depletes vitamin A for me and the reverse effect is also true (A depletes K2)

Once again, vitamin A is necessary as an antioxidant, it's necessary for proper zinc uptake alongside copper, it's necessary for a proper mucosal barrier, too.

Grant's book should immediately raise alarm bells as it leaves out fundamental knowledge of cofactors.

For me personally I have absolutely been k2 deficient but vitamin A simply isn't uptaken for me in this state. However, high copper intake via liver makes me actively and acutely worse so it appears my body is able to deal with excess vitamin A but not excess copper at current.

Our bodies are incredibly smart but long term stress and sun absence, alongside supplementation and eating away from intuition can cause troublesome holes.

I don't believe a person is truly healing if they remain so sensitive to vitamin A. There are many approaches that remove symptoms for a while but are not actually putting us on a path to healing.

Trial this if it feels right but please please keep that last sentence in mind!!

Do you have any science that shows vitamin A is our main antioxidant? I haven't heard it said like that and I have been studying nutrition for 10 yrs.

 

[Orion]

Always pondered how vitamin A was considered helpful, when it is an un-saturated substance.

 

[sunraiser]

Do you have any science that shows vitamin A is our main antioxidant? I haven't heard it said like that and I have been studying nutrition for 10 yrs.

You are correct - it's poor research on my part. Vitamin A is directly involved in calcium (via phosphorous balance) and zinc metabolism and these must be balanced with vitamin C so there's an indirect rate limiting factor via the absence of vitamin A.

In my experience it's a crucial part of the cascade. Well corrected, though - I'll edit in case people stop reading for some reason!

The rest are necessary functions involving vitamin A - the most directly relevant to this thread being the interactions with k2.

We don't know enough about dietary k2 or its metabolism, however i suspect cultural trends may be a useful indicator. I wonder if wine and beer drinking in non escapist quantities might be more useful than we realise as a fermented product.

Edit**also to add more anecdote, I only crave vitamin c rich foods while supplementing k2 and A. They are both also directly involved in proper calcium metabolism for me.

 

[Louise]

These healers and health bloggers thrive on clicks. Anything that can be a new fad or new danger generates them views and a sense of esteem...

I guess don't click on Ray Peat's stuff either.

 

[NatUK]

Thank you everyone for the awesome discussion! I just found Grant’s stuff through Matt Stone/Garrett Smith. I realised I have had “autoimmune” issues my whole life including infant ezcema and colon inflammation onset at age 20

I am also wondering about cellulite?? I am currently in Mexico and it is hot and many women are in swimwear and there is just a lot of it around. And in myself I have seen it only since I have hit my 30’s. I know it’s lymph/imflammation/hormone related/fat storage related. I just feel like maybe it could also be a “Vitamin A” inflammatory issue???

I somehow feel it’s not “normal” or healthy and not just a cosmetic issue.

 

[Lynne]

I am also wondering about cellulite?? I am currently in Mexico and it is hot and many women are in swimwear and there is just a lot of it around. And in myself I have seen it only since I have hit my 30’s. I know it’s lymph/imflammation/hormone related/fat storage related. I just feel like maybe it could also be a “Vitamin A” inflammatory issue???

I somehow feel it’s not “normal” or healthy and not just a cosmetic issue.

I'm having the same problem. I'm lean and have been low PUFA for years and super-low for nearly 1 year but still have a lot of cellulute on my upper thighs. I've been suspecting that I've been getting too much vit A, because of an autoimmune skin condition that seems to be worse when I eat high vit A foods (liver, pumpkin, kumara, carrots, greens, etc), and I've just started cutting back.

Cheers for the great list Lisa. It's great to see that, despite what I've heard elsewhere, milk and moderate amounts of butter and eggs, ice cream and OJ aren't high :) @lisaferraro.

K2 depletes vitamin A for me and the reverse effect is also true (A depletes K2)

Edit**also to add more anecdote, I only crave vitamin c rich foods while supplementing k2 and A. They are both also directly involved in proper calcium metabolism for me.

I'm wondering if the vit A problem for some people may be a consequent deficiency of vit K2 &/or vit C. I do have bone issues ...

 

[MarcelZD]

Thank you everyone for the awesome discussion! I just found Grant’s stuff through Matt Stone/Garrett Smith. I realised I have had “autoimmune” issues my whole life including infant ezcema and colon inflammation onset at age 20

I am also wondering about cellulite?? I am currently in Mexico and it is hot and many women are in swimwear and there is just a lot of it around. And in myself I have seen it only since I have hit my 30’s. I know it’s lymph/imflammation/hormone related/fat storage related. I just feel like maybe it could also be a “Vitamin A” inflammatory issue???

I somehow feel it’s not “normal” or healthy and not just a cosmetic issue.

Anecdotally, excess retention of fat in the belly, thighs and butt often goes hand in hand with gut issues. An inflamed colon, the difficulty eliminating endotoxin and the concomitant estrogen excess would seem like a surefire way to develop cellulite. The cellulite itself is likely largely cosmetic, and if you were to reduce your body fat by restricting calories or build enough muscle to stretch the connective tissue the cellulite would eventually disappear as even the stubborn fat deposits are turned into energy. For general health it would probably be more prudent to try to address the gut issue first - the cellulite might merely be a symptom of an underlying condition.

Genereux seems to believe that VA toxicity leads to inflammation in the colon and the degradation of mucosal tissues caused by an overraction of the body's immune system. As the mucosa degrades, food proteins increasingly leak from the gut into the serum makings things much worse. The rapid loss of fat in the mid-section that I and others have seen reducing Vitamin A in the diet may thus simply be a result of lessened inflammation in the gut. I suspect that the complete healing of the tissues may be something that takes more time.

As someone who has struggled with autoimmune and gut issues for quite some time I've noticed strange things restricting Vitamin A. For one, there's a sense of well-being that I heuristically associate with good digestive function having experienced so many times how inflammation in the colon *feels*. I eat a lot lately, my daily caloric intake is almost twice of the normal energy expenditure of a person my size & activity level. Bread, beans, starch all digest very well - all of those foods meant trouble for me when I was on the Peat protocol. I no longer depend on coffee as I used to just a few weeks ago, and in fact the mere thought of drinking coffee makes me feel kind of ill now. When I drink coffee now it unmistakably triggers my gut issues and I completely lose my appetite for some reason.

 

[Lynne]

As someone who has struggled with autoimmune and gut issues for quite some time I've noticed strange things restricting Vitamin A. For one, there's a sense of well-being that I heuristically associate with good digestive function having experienced so many times how inflammation in the colon *feels*. I eat a lot lately, my daily caloric intake is almost twice of the normal energy expenditure of a person my size & activity level. Bread, beans, starch all digest very well - all of those foods meant trouble for me when I was on the Peat protocol. I no longer depend on coffee as I used to just a few weeks ago, and in fact the mere thought of drinking coffee makes me feel kind of ill now. When I drink coffee now it unmistakably triggers my gut issues and I completely lose my appetite for some reason.

I look forward to reaching this stage. Nice work Marcel!

 

[NatUK]

Anecdotally, excess retention of fat in the belly, thighs and butt often goes hand in hand with gut issues. An inflamed colon, the difficulty eliminating endotoxin and the concomitant estrogen excess would seem like a surefire way to develop cellulite. The cellulite itself is likely largely cosmetic, and if you were to reduce your body fat by restricting calories or build enough muscle to stretch the connective tissue the cellulite would eventually disappear as even the stubborn fat deposits are turned into energy. For general health it would probably be more prudent to try to address the gut issue first - the cellulite might merely be a symptom of an underlying condition.

Genereux seems to believe that VA toxicity leads to inflammation in the colon and the degradation of mucosal tissues caused by an overraction of the body's immune system. As the mucosa degrades, food proteins increasingly leak from the gut into the serum makings things much worse. The rapid loss of fat in the mid-section that I and others have seen reducing Vitamin A in the diet may thus simply be a result of lessened inflammation in the gut. I suspect that the complete healing of the tissues may be something that takes more time.

As someone who has struggled with autoimmune and gut issues for quite some time I've noticed strange things restricting Vitamin A. For one, there's a sense of well-being that I heuristically associate with good digestive function having experienced so many times how inflammation in the colon *feels*. I eat a lot lately, my daily caloric intake is almost twice of the normal energy expenditure of a person my size & activity level. Bread, beans, starch all digest very well - all of those foods meant trouble for me when I was on the Peat protocol. I no longer depend on coffee as I used to just a few weeks ago, and in fact the mere thought of drinking coffee makes me feel kind of ill now. When I drink coffee now it unmistakably triggers my gut issues and I completely lose my appetite for some reason.

Thank you for the response :)

When things are out with the colon it affects my cognitive function greatly. I’m noticing it more and more. It seems our neurobiology is really connected to it.


Regarding the cellulite appearing I don’t have much body fat. I’m not sure the percentage ( it’s probably more than it was at 25 when I didn’t have any) but I’m 5’5” and 114 pounds and pretty muscular as I dance and lift some weights.
I want to start the “A detox” and then see if it makes a difference to cellulite also because I reckon that may get some “well” folks onboard too as it can be really hard to shift. Even though it’s cosmetic it just feels like it’s an indicator that all is not well too. I’m glad to hear you are doing so well on the A reduction protocol. I’m super excited it could be the key to health for us all

 

[InChristAlone]

I'm having the same problem. I'm lean and have been low PUFA for years and super-low for nearly 1 year but still have a lot of cellulute on my upper thighs. I've been suspecting that I've been getting too much vit A, because of an autoimmune skin condition that seems to be worse when I eat high vit A foods (liver, pumpkin, kumara, etc), and I've just started cutting back.

Cheers for the great list Lisa. It's great to see that, despite what I've heard elsewhere, milk and moderate amounts of butter and eggs and OJ aren't high :) @lisaferraro.




I'm wondering if the vit A problem for some people may be a consequent deficiency of vit K2 &/or vit C. I do have bone issues ...

Be careful though, dairy, eggs and OJ still add up and you could be getting over the RDA everyday if eat a lot of those foods. Especially if it's low fat milk fortified with A.

 

[Lynne]

Be careful though, dairy, eggs and OJ still add up and you could be getting over the RDA everyday if eat a lot of those foods. Especially if it's low fat milk fortified with A.

Thanks Janelle, most of the fresh milk here isn't fortified so that's ok, and I did say moderate amounts, by which I mean 'in moderation' rather than 'medium'. Chronometer says my new vit A-reduced diet, which includes eggs (1), milk (~800mls), and OJ (~300ml) is under the RDA which is significantly better than the 10-20 times the RDA I was eating before. My skin inflammation is already less inflamed and starting to heal, and it's only day 3

 

[somuch4food]

A study linking Retinoic acid to worsened enterocolitis in zebra fish: Retinoic acid suppresses intestinal mucus production and exacerbates experimental enterocolitis

By wiping the microbiota with antibiotics, the effect was nullified meaning that it would be dependent on the animal's gut flora which would explain why only some people have adverse effects from carotenes.

I have eaten some carrots with most meals in the last 24 hours and my dull back pain is back. I was always thinking that it could be either meat, wheat or dairy, it might have been vit A all along... I will continue to observe to see if the pattern fits.

Who would have thought that a "vitamin" could wreck health like this...

 

[NatUK]

I'm having the same problem. I'm lean and have been low PUFA for years and super-low for nearly 1 year but still have a lot of cellulute on my upper thighs. I've been suspecting that I've been getting too much vit A, because of an autoimmune skin condition that seems to be worse when I eat high vit A foods (liver, pumpkin, kumara, carrots, greens, etc), and I've just started cutting back.

Cheers for the great list Lisa. It's great to see that, despite what I've heard elsewhere, milk and moderate amounts of butter and eggs, ice cream and OJ aren't high :) @lisaferraro.





I'm wondering if the vit A problem for some people may be a consequent deficiency of vit K2 &/or vit C. I do have bone issues ...

People tend to talk about losing the body fat with the cellulite thing but I too think it’s related to vit a inflammation rather than amounts of fat as I don’t have much! Good to know I’m not alone. I’d be interested to hear if/how it works out for you with the vitamin a reduction Also. I also have autoimmune skin issues.

 

[InChristAlone]

Yeah I got my first cellulite around the time I started getting a skin peeling problem.

 

[Hans]

Just an association study, but still.

Zinc, Iron and Vitamins A, C and E Are Associated with Obesity, Inflammation, Lipid Profile and Insulin Resistance in Mexican School-Aged Children
"Vitamin C and vitamin E:lipids were negatively associated with Body Mass Index (BMI), waist-to-height ratio (WHR) and body and abdominal fat (p < 0.05). Vitamin A was positively associated with BMI, BMI-for-age, WHR and abdominal fat"

 

[dolly122]

what? this is from the above study:

"In conclusion, low vitamin C concentration and the vitamin E:lipids ratio were associated with obesity. In addition, low concentrations of vitamins A and E and zinc in children who were overweight and obese were associated with lipids, inflammation and insulin resistance. More studies are needed to explore the causality of these relationships. Furthermore, future research should focus on the effectiveness of providing micronutrients to prevent obesity and its comorbidities in this age group."