Does k2 and d3 supplement really increase the need for calcium?

[GTW]

Organic acids, carboxylic acids, may cause acidity in your mouth. Citric acid said to stimulate alkaline/bicarbonate in saliva. However, organic acid moiety metabolized to bicarbonate.
The minerals sulfur, phosphorus, and others that maybe in some amino acids and foods are the ones that generate acidity in the body that can cause acid urine.

 

[Mauritio]

I tried taking vitamin K in a gelatin capsule again. And once again: no tooth sensitivity after ...

 

[pondering]

Good point.
Wasn't until i heard Georgi's latest interview that "quarter dropped" and I realized vitamin K, other quinones and good oxidizing agents are acids (hence the teeth issues with vitamin K when not swallowed?)

Which interview?

 

[Giraffe]

Is there any studies of biochemistry showing that if we take high doses of vitamin d3 and our calcium needs increase?

Some people say calcium needs decrease with higher k2 intake

Vitamin D helps to absorb more calcium from your food, and vitamin K helps to put the calcium in the right places in your body.

There are studies from Japan where they used 45 mg vitamin K2 per day - which is a huge dose - with good results. I am not aware that they supplemented calcium as well, but maybe you want to look into those studies.

The following review article discusses a bit the research on vitamin K.

The Medical Benefits of Vitamin K2 on Calcium-Related Disorders

Background: Due to the potentially crucial role of vitamin K[2] in calcium metabolism, a deficit can disrupt many mechanisms, resulting in an array of different issues, such as broken bones, stiff arteries and poor fertility. Although there has been ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Giraffe]

I also wonder of there is any other way to effect PTH than having a high calcium to phosphate ratio.

I copied the follwoing from an older post of mine. I was summing up what Ray Peat has said in an interview:

"Dietary factors that lower PTH are adequate intake of calcium, magnesium and proteins: all those should spare vitamin D. High dietary phosphate increases PTH. Sugar, niacinamide, vitamin A and K help to handle the calcium and balance the ratio of calcium to phosphorus."

You want adequate amounts of all of these.

 

[pondering]

@Elie I’m good. See you mentioned specifics of the interview in another thread. Thanks!

I noted a few interesting pearls in Georgi's latest interview "Maintain your Brain" with Kitty Martone.

 

[h.c.]

They way I understand it, I'd expect the opposite.
Vit D increases calcium absorption and vit K help utilize it efficiently in some of its functions.

This is exactly the understanding I got throughout my research and from reading the books from T. Levy, MD which got really down the Calcium-road and Kate Rheaume-Bleue about K2.

Here are my thoughts (G-Translate Link to english): Das Aktivatoren-Trio: Vitamin A, D, K(2) & der Calcium-Metabolismus: Gute Zähne & Knochen & keine Atherosklerose - H.C.'s Blog

One core part is:

In the context of calcium, vitamins A and D are required for the production of proteins such as osteocalcin (OC) and MGP (matrix Gla protein), while vitamin K2 is activating these proteins (-> carboyxation). OC and MGP are important for the transport of calcium in the body. Without A & D no OC and MGP - without K2 no activation , which means that calcium is not built into the bones - but into the arteries, heart valve & Co.

The added problem ist, that people forget the thyroid hormones and other steroid hormones. They play an important role in the calcium-metabolism. If studies not normalize that... then you may get mixed results.

Best,
Hans

 

[aniciete]

Beyond a shadow of a doubt, this happens to me as well when I take K2 (mk4). Supplementing calcium also causes me trouble: constipation, as well as feeling off; but I did take it a few times to see if it would prevent the teeth from hurting, and if remember accurately it either reduced it considerably or eliminated it. But, I"ll have to test it again. I feel so bad after taking k2, like for 10-12 days after, that I'm hesitant to take it again.

I started taking k2 again and within a couple days now my teeth are super rough and have this weird discolored look. Figured it should have the opposite effect..

 

[GTW]

Excess D supplementation is known to cause severe Mg depletion. That could help to explain the other adverse effects. However many health nuts seem to want to reach 50-80 serum D level. Given the D-Mg interrelationship that would be Catch-22.

 

[Mossy]

I started taking k2 again and within a couple days now my teeth are super rough and have this weird discolored look. Figured it should have the opposite effect..

I haven't experienced those effects, but my teeth do hurt, to varying degrees, when I take K2. It may be a co-factor as well, like the need for A, D or Mg; but I've never been able to sort this out for myself, to a point where I can take it without feeling bad. I find for the hypersensitive, like myself, and it sounds like you, you really have to do a lot of research, and trial and error. And take it very slowly and carefully; and even then you may never get supplements to work.

 

[Mauritio]

I haven't experienced those effects, but my teeth do hurt, to varying degrees, when I take K2. It may be a co-factor as well, like the need for A, D or Mg; but I've never been able to sort this out for myself, to a point where I can take it without feeling bad. I find for the hypersensitive, like myself, and it sounds like you, you really have to do a lot of research, and trial and error. And take it very slowly and carefully; and even then you may never get supplements to work.

Try taking it in a gelatin capsule, works for me!

 

[Mossy]

Try taking it in a gelatin capsule, works for me!

Interesting. And otherwise, without the capsule, you get adverse effects?

 

[Mauritio]

Interesting. And otherwise, without the capsule, you get adverse effects?

Yes

 

[Mauritio]

So you can see how important it is to maintain steady and healthy levels of calcium in the body. You can also see how vitamin D promotes healthy bones by indirectly maintaining adequate serum calcium and phosphorus for bone mineralization to occur. Vitamin D controls the level of calcium in the blood. If there is not enough calcium in the diet, then it will be drawn from the bone. High levels of vitamin D (from the diet or from sunlight) will actually demineralize bone if sufficient calcium is not present.”

That is what seems to behappenng to me. Several times after Ive taken Vitamin D I found a tiny piece of tooth in my mouth.
From what I learned and believed this shouldnt happen, but reality seems to suggest otherwise.

@June maybe this is what is happening to us, low calcium? (I supplement calcium, but still...)

 

[Mossy]

That is what seems to behappenng to me. Several times after Ive taken Vitamin D I found a tiny piece of tooth in my mouth.
From what I learned and believed this shouldnt happen, but reality seems to suggest otherwise.

@June maybe this is what is happening to us, low calcium? (I supplement calcium, but still...)

This is quite a frightening prospect, that supplementing vitamin D will do this. I have a similar story, from when I was testing supplementation of the fat solubles: A, D, K2, and E, where my tooth chipped—twice. I've mentioned it on this forum, I think about 4-5 years back. At the time, and until I read this, I thought progesterone was the culprit; and I still don't completely eliminate it as a possibility. Whether vitamin D or progesterone, it seems low calcium is the thing to correct; but, you were taking calcium and it still happened. This health thing is not easy.

 

[Mauritio]

This is quite a frightening prospect, that supplementing vitamin D will do this. I have a similar story, from when I was testing supplementation of the fat solubles: A, D, K2, and E, where my tooth chipped—twice. I've mentioned it on this forum, I think about 4-5 years back. At the time, and until I read this, I thought progesterone was the culprit; and I still don't completely eliminate it as a possibility. Whether vitamin D or progesterone, it seems low calcium is the thing to correct; but, you were taking calcium and it still happened. This health thing is not easy.

Lol yes, Im really starting to question the safety of "safe" supplements, how should normies without any knowledge or feeling about their body notice and prevent something like this, seems almost impossible.
Maybe I wasn't supplementing enough calcium?!

 

[Mossy]

Lol yes, Im really starting to question the safety of "safe" supplements, how should normies without any knowledge or feeling about their body notice and prevent something like this, seems almost impossible.
Maybe I wasn't supplementing enough calcium?!

How much calcium were you supplementing and were you drinking milk or eating cheese as well?

 

[Mauritio]

How much calcium were you supplementing and were you drinking milk or eating cheese as well?

I was eating cheese and yoghurt everyday and supplementing 300-500mg of calcium daily.