Rethinking Magnesium: Why You're Deficient And Need To Supplement

Glassy

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That's 5g in one drink. Is that once a day? If you're doing it once in a while, you won't be likely to feel anything untoward. But if you are doing it daily, the effects could be cumulative in terms of acid load. Keep a log, and see at what point your urination frequency increases. I got to a point where I would wake up 4x a night to pee. Needless to say, I had less sleep and my health went down. Got allergies back and a cough that wouldn't go away. The extra work on the liver and the kidneys needed to keep acid-base balance means energy wasted that would otherwise have been used to bolster your immunity, among other things the body does to maintain itself in top shape.

Yeah 5g of MgCl2 flakes per dose containing approximately 600mg elemental magnesium. I’ve been taking this daily for about 4 weeks. I noticed more loose stool reactions when taking doses of mag bicarb water in this range of elemental magnesium (overall pretty mild though), I suspect part of this is me becoming more accustomed to dealing with magnesium in the GI tract.

I rarely wake in the night to pee but sometimes have quite a large pee in the morning after waking. I’ve not noticed any significant negative effects and I’m still not sure if I’ve experienced positive effects. I’ve not been sick (cold, flu, etc) for a long time (at least 12 months) and my energy levels aren’t too bad considering increased work stress and it’s the middle of winter here.

I’ve been adding the MgCl2 solution to the quart of OJ (and hydrolysed collagen/gelatine) I sometimes take to work and then having roughly 25ml before dinner for the last week or so. I’d be getting close to 8g of MgCl2 flakes most days now (I use the 30ml per day as my minimum but often take more).

From what I’ve read on high dose Mg supplementation, this sort of dose is generally not tolerable by most people orally. FWIW I’m a bit guy at 6’4 and 228lbs. Each 5g dose contains about 1.75g of elemental chlorine as chloride ions.
 

yerrag

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Yeah 5g of MgCl2 flakes per dose containing approximately 600mg elemental magnesium. I’ve been taking this daily for about 4 weeks. I noticed more loose stool reactions when taking doses of mag bicarb water in this range of elemental magnesium (overall pretty mild though), I suspect part of this is me becoming more accustomed to dealing with magnesium in the GI tract.

I rarely wake in the night to pee but sometimes have quite a large pee in the morning after waking. I’ve not noticed any significant negative effects and I’m still not sure if I’ve experienced positive effects. I’ve not been sick (cold, flu, etc) for a long time (at least 12 months) and my energy levels aren’t too bad considering increased work stress and it’s the middle of winter here.

I’ve been adding the MgCl2 solution to the quart of OJ (and hydrolysed collagen/gelatine) I sometimes take to work and then having roughly 25ml before dinner for the last week or so. I’d be getting close to 8g of MgCl2 flakes most days now (I use the 30ml per day as my minimum but often take more).

From what I’ve read on high dose Mg supplementation, this sort of dose is generally not tolerable by most people orally. FWIW I’m a bit guy at 6’4 and 228lbs. Each 5g dose contains about 1.75g of elemental chlorine as chloride ions.
It's more like 1,270mg elemental magnesium per 5g dose, and the remainder is chloride ions. It took me 4 months of daily 4.8g intake of magnesium chloride to have some negative effects and another month to finally realize it.

I could be wrong, but at least you have a heads up on it.
 

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KalosKaiAgathos
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I beg to differ. If one drinks magnesium water instead of water, he isn't drinking any more water than he normally drinks. Even if the magnesium water were highly concentrated, at around 5000mg/liter of elemental magnesium, it is still easy to drink. It's because that is what I do.

In like manner, we wouldn't be saying there is a disadvantage to drinking orange juice, because we know advocating drinking OJ would not cause people to drink more water.

The problem is that there are people who just have to drink x glasses of water a day, regardless of whether they thirst or not, just because they think if water is good, they just have to drink lots of it. And they just have to drink x glass of water a day, regardless of whether they drank magnesium water or orange juice.

Cannot agree more with your assessment.
 
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KalosKaiAgathos
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It's easy to list magnesium rich foods and just say "eat these", but in reality it doesn't work that way. In a depleted state I just did not ever crave greens, the added vitamin A and vitamin K also might be a hindrance if your body doesn't need them. Perhaps they're too heavy to digest when you're unable to tolerate enough calories to have metabolic sufficiency. Dark chocolate, I did crave, but the stimulant effect caused too much adrenal stress.

I don't know whether this remark was aimed at me, but I've not specifically advocated for changing one's diet in my magnesium article. One reason is that I thought I did not need to, because almost every diet imaginable ended up with problems.

If you go heavy on grains, nuts and seeds, you might end up with sufficient magnesium levels, but you'll also end up with lots of PUFA.
If you take a seafood heavy diet, you might end up with a ruined omega 3-6 ratio.
If you eat a "Ray Peat diet" (I know there isn't one), the calcium to magnesium ratio tends to become high.
If you eat a low-carb paleo diet you just might get enough magnesium with lots of meat consumption, but you won't have the benefits of carbs.

So overall, I saw no way out advising testing / supplementation for the gross majority of people. Of course, there are always outliers.
 
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KalosKaiAgathos
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Guru, I just want to let you know that I feel grateful for your title choice since it was easy to find to the thread.

This might interest you:

Timeline (Bioavailability) of Magnesium Compounds in Hours: Which Magnesium Compound Works Best?

"In our experiments, we did not observe any differences between the control group and the inorganic magnesium groups (magnesium oxide and magnesium sulfate), which can be interpreted as the low bioavailability of these compounds [15, 17]. We showed that the magnesium acetyl taurate (an organic compound) group had the highest brain magnesium levels, followed closely by magnesium malate."

"

This outcome is consistent with my findings. I also consider oxide and sulfate sub-optimal in my article... :)
 

Capt Nirvana

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Hey Peatarians! I've got a confession to make: I disagree big time with Ray Peat's opinion on magnesium.

I must admit, however, that Ray has been somewhat influential to me with his calcium to phosphorus ratio. However, I think that magnesium and calcium should also be ROUGHLY in a 1:1 balance as well.

Why?

One reason is because I think there's evidence that traditional cultures had a 1:1 calcium : magnesium balance in their diets as well. Another reason is that lots of people seem to do better on higher magnesium intakes.

From reading Peat, I notice that he does not recommend a 1:1 ratio between magnesium and calcium intake. That's where my blog post comes in:

I tell you why I consider almost everyone magnesium deficient! If you're not taking the right magnesium supplements, you're probably deficient too...

I'm not fear mongering though. My message is optimistic: you can improve your health for pennies a day!

Learn:

- how it's almost impossible to get sufficient magnesium through food alone
- why our modern lifestyle predisposes you for magnesium deficiency
- the many simple magnesium deficiency signs in existence
- why 60% of people have a severe magnesium deficiency, and 80-90% of people have sub-optimal magnesium levels
- the massive health benefits magnesium can bring
- that not all magnesium supplements are great, and which supplements you should take for the best absorption
- about the best magnesium lab tests
- why magnesium helps you prevent diabetes, heart disease, Alzheimer's disease, osteoporosis, and other diseases
- that the correct magnesium supplements don't need to be expensive

And much, much more.

And please let me know what you think as Peat advocates!

Link: Rethinking Magnesium: Why You're Deficient And Need To Supplement
 

Capt Nirvana

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The calcium-magnesium ratio for cow's milk is 10:1.

The calcium-magnesium ratio for human milk is 10:1.

Mineral ratios are what happens when medical statisticians run amuck.

Fauja Singh (The Turbaned Tornado) is 108, and never took a drug or supplement in all those years.
 

LeeLemonoil

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Interesting study but they did a ***t job presenting the used products. Magnesium-Orotate is curious. Hardly dissociating in the stomach but very good distal intestine absorption
 

LeeLemonoil

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And it seems corrobated that Magnesium resorption is quantitatively Limited or regulated at any one time
 

evanjones

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Dr Sarah Myhill suggests taking Mg rectally, which I have been doing now for some years, about 1/2 tsp magnesium sulfate in 100ml of water/day. I used to use tap water until I realised that aluminium residues in the local tap water were worsening my blood zeta potential. So I now use RO water.

I have taken up adding other unpalatable supplemental substances to the same rectal mix: 1/2 tsp Ascorbic acid, 1/2 tsp sodium ETDA, 1/2 tsp L-carnitine (I have had Atrial Fillibration and Cardiomyopathy for 10 years)

The daily rectal dose of epsom salts really helps keep my AF under control
 

yerrag

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Dr Sarah Myhill suggests taking Mg rectally, which I have been doing now for some years, about 1/2 tsp magnesium sulfate in 100ml of water/day. I used to use tap water until I realised that aluminium residues in the local tap water were worsening my blood zeta potential. So I now use RO water.

I have taken up adding other unpalatable supplemental substances to the same rectal mix: 1/2 tsp Ascorbic acid, 1/2 tsp sodium ETDA, 1/2 tsp L-carnitine (I have had Atrial Fillibration and Cardiomyopathy for 10 years)

The daily rectal dose of epsom salts really helps keep my AF under control
Are you doing well mixing ascorbic acid to your solution? The intestines are sensitive to acid. Too much acidity will cause diarrhea.
 

Collden

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One could just as well argue that people have better magnesium status now than in the past, due to abundant access to easily digestible magnesium-rich foods like coffee, chocolate, nuts, potatoes and dairy, and less consumption of antinutrients like phytate and oxalate in the diet due to better food processing.

Also is there any evidence that the ratio of dietary calcium to magnesium, rather than the absolute amount of magnesium, actually matters much for magnesium status or health? Is this not ignoring the bodys ability to enhance magnesium absorption when levels are low, as well as the potential ability of calcium to promote absorption of magnesium by binding to antinutrients that would otherwise bind magnesium?

There are only a few actual studies investigating the relationship of both dietary Ca and Mg intake to disease and they do not support the Ca:Mg ratio theory. Several studies found that increasing intakes of both Ca and Mg protected against disease
The relation of magnesium and calcium intakes and a genetic polymorphism in the magnesium transporter to colorectal neoplasia risk
Dietary calcium and magnesium intakes and the risk of type 2 diabetes: the Shanghai Women's Health Study

One study found that higher intake of both Ca and Mg protects against disease, but the ratio of Ca:Mg did not matter
Calcium/magnesium intake ratio, but not magnesium intake, interacts with genetic polymorphism in relation to colorectal neoplasia in a two-phase study

One study of esophageal disease found complex interactions between increasing intakes of either Ca and Mg with the Ca:Mg ratio that I'm still struggling to figure out what it means, but overall increasing intakes of both Ca and Mg was protective.
Dietary magnesium, calcium:magnesium ratio and risk of reflux oesophagitis, Barrett's oesophagus and oesophageal adenocarcinoma: a population-based... - PubMed - NCBI

Lastly, one study even found that higher Mg:Ca ratio is associated with higher mortality
Modifying effect of calcium/magnesium intake ratio and mortality: a population-based cohort study

Overall most studies find that higher intake of either Ca or Mg is protective against disease, which suggests that the absolute intake of these minerals matter more for your health than the ratio, which is good since many calcium-rich foods are also good magnesium sources. So basically supplements are unnecessary as long as you are consuming a diet of whole foods with stuff like coffee, chocolate, fruits, tubers, milk, etc since you will easily hit the RDA and beyond for Mg.
 
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berk

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The reference list is epic.
'Its Biological Significance' book series is quite interesting. It's cool that you consulted it as well.


I suspect a reasonable ratio of calcium to magnesium is 2:1 for higher calcium intakes and something like 5:3 for lower intakes. A ratio of 1:1 is therapeutic but unnecessary for people without weakened metabolisms.

Intestinal absorption of magnesium from food and supplements.
Magnesium absorption is steep until about 120 mg at a time, beyond that it starts to level. It doesn't stop there at all, it's similar to vit C: you keep pushing, you keep absorbing; but the fact that there's a clear decline in the rate must point that we're better adapted to amounts up to more or less 120 mg in a meal. Suchzord suggested people to spread doses throughout the day, and I think he's right.


Magnesium sulfate is the main form used in emergency as far as I know. I don't want to play the knowledgeable here because I'm not, it's just that I always read about it being favored instead of chloride. The other forms are more expensive, so this might be one of the ressons why these are more popular.

These two forms are trash because both provide too much of what doesn't interest you to get a little of what does. The body will need to get rid of them somehow at a cost. I won't go over this again in details, I'll just add that these two will acidify the body in unnecessary and avoidable ways, and magnesium is flushed out when bicarbonate production is impaired, which isn't uncommon. Magnesium chloride's taste is a good indicator of how great it is, especially in large doses.

Magnesium bicarbonate is probably the best. But it forces the people to consume liquid to get magnesium.

Magnesium carbonate is more difficult to be digested and might shift the state of the person in unwanted ways.

Most forms deserve preloading with a bicarbonate salt. It can make a big difference. Supplementing during or after exercise is also useful.

When magnesium is complexed with organic acids, the acid might enhance the absorption of impurities some of the hows while being digested.


If you think he doesn't acknowledge its importance, you probably have missed this from an inter of the views:

"[..]Magnesium is the most famous because of magnesium deficiency, they found it caused a terrific range of inflammatory diseases in animals and they would cure skin diseases, heart disease, nerve disease, liver disease and so on just by correcting a magnesium deficiency."​

I don't think he spends much time dealing with magnesium deficiency with his clients because he seems to go straight to thyroid as a short of the cuts as a simplified way to deal with various problems.

A major cause of deficiency isn't insufficient intake. A lot of people these days supplement it yet still can't use it. If it is, some supplementation will suffice surprisingly fast.

Have you tried to avoid artificial lights at night altogether for a couple of days? You'll notice that there isn't much to do other than relax and rest. Are the stressors that need to be corrected.


Less than 2% of the population in Usanda consumes more than 4700 mg of potassium a day. I think the average is 3500 mg. The other countries are not important. If you consider that 1000 mg of calcium is a reasonabke intake, then suggesting a Ca:Mg of 1 will lead you to a very unusual ratio of potassium to magnesium. A diet rich in potassium will naturally provide enough magnesium, I only realized this after gurus pointed it out to me.
what about magnesium citrate
 

GelatinGoblin

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To me, it's shockingly dangerous to stick to your opinion in the face of new developments of science. I also think it's very very dangerous to think that by using Ray Peat's health principles, or principles of another experts, we have somehow arrived at an "eternal truth" regarding how health works.

Interesting theory!
 

GelatinGoblin

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Next to a Master's in Clinical Health Sciences, I've actually completed a Master's in Philosophy and Philosophy of Science and Technology as well. I've specialized heavily on the justification of the methodology of science in the last few years.

I will say that my approach with my blog is going to be totally different than many other people (bloggers, experts) out there.

Why? Contrary to many people, I think even the most fundamentally accepted facts in health care will get revised over time - even though I'm hinting at a very complex discussion here.

Most generations of scientists think they are "right". But Aristotelean physics got overturned by Newtonian mechanics, which got overtuned by Einsteinian physics.

For people who are interested in my philosophical position on the methodology of science: I accept Thomas Kuhn's notion that science develos in certain paradigms, which all have their own theoretical frameworks, metaphysical presuppositions, core principles, exemplars, etcetera, but I do not accept Kuhn's notion that different scientific paradigms are incommensurable. I strongly believe that there is a cumulative and progressive tendency in science - as knowledge of the world - that cannot be reduced to social phenomena (as so often assumed from the 1970s).

Because of this philosophical position, however, any claims to truth that I make regarding health care are necessarily only tentative. With the emergence of new data, some of my theories on how to best unify that data will be incomplete at best, or untrue at worst. Old data which I accepted as true, might also turn out wrong in time.

To me, it's shockingly dangerous to stick to your opinion in the face of new developments of science. I also think it's very very dangerous to think that by using Ray Peat's health principles, or principles of another experts, we have somehow arrived at an "eternal truth" regarding how health works.

Let's make the following though experiment to demonstrate why I reject the notion that Ray Peat has arrived at some "eternal truth" regarding the functioning of health. Under my very pragmantic conception of truth in healthcare, we would fully understand health if and only if we can manipulate health at a 100% level at our fingertips.

What does 100% manipulation mean? For example, you would be able to induce cancer into that patient, then quickly heal that patient without the risk of side-effect or other risks, induce a mitchondrial disease after that, and cure that disease effortlessly afterwards again. Ray Peat's system of health - although it's powerful - cannot do such things at this time. Because Ray Peat's system of health does not give us total control over our health (or, as denoted earlier: 100% manipulability), it cannot yield a complete understanding of health.

(bear in mind that my argument does have some presuppositions, such as a necessary relationship between manipulability and understanding. Contrary to my argument, one could claim that someone could fully understand how cancer originates, even though that person cannot manipulate the disease at will).

But even though my argument is simplistic, I hope you get the point.

I must say, that because of my background in philosophy and philosophy of science and technology, I do not have the confidence that I've found an eternally true theory of health. Many other experts out there are far more certain they are "right" than I do.

The consequence? I'm absolutely certain that some beliefs that I have on health today, will turn out wrong in the future. The fact that some of my beliefs (or theories) on health are necessarily untrue, gives rise to an ethical dilemma. Why? Well, I'm recommending interventions to patients, which will turn out incorrect in time.

I've studied the history of science deeply enough to know that many beliefs (or theories) I hold true today will be considered wrong in 50 years, or 100.

So, the questoin then becomes: why engage in science? And how can we engage in science ethically?

To me, the role of the scientist is to best unify all data out there on health (or a subcategory of health). If current data turns out wrong, or new data emerges, the process of unification has to occur anew.

For example, in my opinion, Ray Peat might be wrong about magnesium. But, in Ray's defense, he could have never known about the extent of the soil depletion during the peak of his life. Even though Ray might turn out "wrong" about some things, he did unify the data in a spectacular way for the 80s, 90s, and 00s. New data has thus emerged that Ray could not have fully taken into account in his earlier theories.

"Experts" out there who do hold steadfast to a conception that their Paleo lifestyle, or Ray Peat lifestyle is in some way or form "eternally true", cannot even see the limitations of their way of unifying all the data. Why? Because such followers blindly accept how their predecessor (the Paleo guru, or another expert) unified the data. That method of blind following, already places an artificial limitation upon yourself, IMO, becuase you become less receptive for new data inputs, or disqualifying old data that might already be incorrect.

Of course, my argument is way too simplified again, becuase I know that 99,9% of people do not have the time to check all the presuppositions of a theory, and to double check all the data themselves.

The bottom line of my dilemma is this: I will turn out wrong about many subjects, but I do not know which ones right now - even though I make recommendatoins to my clients, and people who read my blog - which is a very scary thought...

Edit: If this blog post is not understandable, the reason is because I've not edited my argument to perfection.

:clap
 

FitnessMike

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Plain Mg-Carbonate is the best. You can overdo on Glycine intake and it gets harmful. Carbonate on the other hand provides co2 and bicarbonate
how about mag citrate, citrate supposedly increases bicarbonate in the body?
 
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how about mag citrate, citrate supposedly increases bicarbonate in the body?

Mag Citrate is useful if you are constipated. But because it makes you “go” a lot, you don’t retain a lot of nutrients. IMHO.

I love magnesium. Really lurv it. I take about 400-600 mgs. a day. It’s one of my favorite supplements. I mentioned this product before on the forum, but it has a combination of different magnesium sources. It does have magnesium citrate but it’s not the only source.

It’s a combination of - magnesium citrate
- succinic acid complex
- magnesium glycinate
- magnesium malate
- taurine complex

I feel great on it, it’s gentle and I feel I absorb it well. It’s my new favorite magnesium. So I’m recommending it:
 

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